For you Contract Wizards - Hopkins & Conner

[Stout]

He was a huge reason we were doing well last year in the first place (with an incredibly, ridiculously low salary). His contract didn't matter this year since it had nothing to do with us losing and a cheaper RB option wouldn't have changed our record (or the extra cap it provided)

My whataboutism? Haha. Tell us how some mystery rb would have totally worked in our favor and changed our fortunes.

Please give us a suck of this foresight nipple. Us plebs must see the light as we are so lost in the dark.

You painted an either/or where we had to either sign Edmonds or JC, which was inaccurate, and claimed opinions about the JC signing were hindsight. When I pointed out the obvious, that some folks didn't want JC in the first place, you tried to make the point about who we should have signed instead. Whataboutism.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

All this is why I fantasy the Cards draft both Johnston, WR, TCU and Robinson, RB, Texas this year because in 2 yrs we would have gotten rid of both Conner and Hopkins. Letting them both go in the next 1 and 2 years, will have us in a good cap situation and already have 2 studs to replace them. Lots of teams will envy us having 2 so powerful offensive weapons, plus our mini-mouse QB who should have grown up by then.

Now don't go saying how we have other needs right now. I know all that, but having two studs and such important scoring positions on rookie contracts, frees us up in the next few drafts to not worry about those 2 positions, and concentrate solely on filling in our other needs. Besides the drafts, having CAP space should make that so much easier to do.

We don't have to get our starting DT, OL, and/or CBs all in this draft. What is the rush? You don't think we are going to compete next year do you?

We have 2 or 3 years to fill all the holes before we will be in a position to be a playoff type team. I prefer to look further down the road accepting the fact that the next year is already a lost year, and the year after that will still be a growing year. Thus that gives us 3 drafts to fix this team and be fully ready to do some serious damage when the 2025 season begins.

As much as I’d be excited for those two players, this is exactly the philosophy that has kept us awful in the trenches forever.

 

[kerouac9]

Well if we resigned neither the board would have went nuts. It was literally a lose-lose-lose situation.

Disagree. The know-nothings on this board might’ve been mad, but Football Knowers here would have correctly said that you don’t want to pay James Conner for literally the best year of his career. It would have been better to wait him out and see if there were another suitor.

Connor was okay last season but he took a bunch of red zone TDs Kyler would have collected and didn’t add much.

Some people would have bellyached about going into the season with Eno Benjamin and castoffs, but it would have been the correct football decision. Only Dave Gettlemen and the drunkest general manager in the business would have missed it.

 

[Zalixar]

You painted an either/or where we had to either sign Edmonds or JC, which was inaccurate, and claimed opinions about the JC signing were hindsight. When I pointed out the obvious, that some folks didn't want JC in the first place, you tried to make the point about who we should have signed instead. Whataboutism.

Except we did draft a RB. We did pick up a RB in FA as well. Per your foresight.

How did that work out?

I'll clown on Keim all day long and twice on Sundays. No matter the decision it wouldn't have worked out. It's a lost season.

No amount of foresight mattered.

 

[Zalixar]

Disagree. The know-nothings on this board might’ve been mad, but Football Knowers here would have correctly said that you don’t want to pay James Conner for literally the best year of his career. It would have been better to wait him out and see if there were another suitor.

Connor was okay last season but he took a bunch of red zone TDs Kyler would have collected and didn’t add much.

Some people would have bellyached about going into the season with Eno Benjamin and castoffs, but it would have been the correct football decision. Only Dave Gettlemen and the drunkest general manager in the business would have missed it.

Took Tds from Kyler? He was the main reason we got TD's

Give me a break. We spent the 2nd season failing to get those close TD's numerous times, and their rookie season. Those are NOT guaranteed. Easy to say we totally would have gotten them when there's evidence of two seasons of failure in RZ and goal to go situations WITH Kyler

Revisionist history is wild. And easy to never lose an argument of "foresight" if decisions in alternative timelines can going any way you want to write it.

There was no right decision. The season was doomed no matter what happened. Can't blame Keim for this, even though I will blame him at every opportunity and for the majority of all our problems.

 

[Stout]

Lost season? Most def. We're still handcuffed by the JC contract, though. Bad contract? Most def.

 

[BritCard]

Fake news. Cutting or trading Hopkins saves $8M on next years cap.

Nobody is taking a $22m dead cap hit to save $8m.

More likely is a post June 1st trade which splits it $11m over 2 seasons and saves $19.5m next year.

But also I think Nuk might restructure to facilitate a trade. If he wants out then the Cards can insist on it.

 

[Chopper0080]

Nobody is taking a $22m dead cap hit to save $8m.

More likely is a post June 1st trade which splits it $11m over 2 seasons and saves $19.5m next year.

But also I think Nuk might restructure to facilitate a trade. If he wants out then the Cards can insist on it.

If you are rebuilding you do. It's not like your cap goes down by 22 mil. You gain 8 mil in cap space and have clean books for 2024.

I am not advocating for trading Hopkins, but the money isn't an issue because if you deal him you are essentially blowing it up anyway.

 

[kerouac9]

Took Tds from Kyler? He was the main reason we got TD's

Give me a break. We spent the 2nd season failing to get those close TD's numerous times, and their rookie season. Those are NOT guaranteed. Easy to say we totally would have gotten them when there's evidence of two seasons of failure in RZ and goal to go situations WITH Kyler

Revisionist history is wild. And easy to never lose an argument of "foresight" if decisions in alternative timelines can going any way you want to write it.

There was no right decision. The season was doomed no matter what happened. Can't blame Keim for this, even though I will blame him at every opportunity and for the majority of all our problems.

C'mon, bro. Kyler went from 4 rushing TDs his rookie season to 11 to 5 then 3.

Arizona Cardinals rushing TDs went from 22 in 2020 to 23 in 2021 to 14 so far this year.

We didn't score more rushing TDs; we just consolidated the player who was the guy entering the end zone. We also tweaked how we got them -- rushing from 1 yard out up the middle instead of a bootleg or something with Kyler.

It's still a net good because you don't want Kyler fighting through traffic at the goal line more than he has to, and Conner was a good deal for one year for relative pennies. But Keim is a drunk fool who fell for a narrative about toughness or something and now we're stuck with paying James Conner a top 10 RB contract for 12 games of average production.

Nobody is taking a $22m dead cap hit to save $8m.

More likely is a post June 1st trade which splits it $11m over 2 seasons and saves $19.5m next year.

But also I think Nuk might restructure to facilitate a trade. If he wants out then the Cards can insist on it.

Why? The money is already spent; Michael and the team save actual cash by letting him go. The team is worse, but you free up resources for 2024 and beyond.

I'm interested in what you think a "restructure to facilitate a trade" would look like. His guarantees are done, all that's left is money already spent to account for an non-guaranteed salary. He's as tradeable as he can be right now.

 

[Zalixar]

C'mon, bro. Kyler went from 4 rushing TDs his rookie season to 11 to 5 then 3.

Arizona Cardinals rushing TDs went from 22 in 2020 to 23 in 2021 to 14 so far this year.

We didn't score more rushing TDs; we just consolidated the player who was the guy entering the end zone. We also tweaked how we got them -- rushing from 1 yard out up the middle instead of a bootleg or something with Kyler.

It's still a net good because you don't want Kyler fighting through traffic at the goal line more than he has to, and Conner was a good deal for one year for relative pennies. But Keim is a drunk fool who fell for a narrative about toughness or something and now we're stuck with paying James Conner a top 10 RB contract for 12 games of average production.



Why? The money is already spent; Michael and the team save actual cash by letting him go. The team is worse, but you free up resources for 2024 and beyond.

I'm interested in what you think a "restructure to facilitate a trade" would look like. His guarantees are done, all that's left is money already spent to account for an non-guaranteed salary. He's as tradeable as he can be right now.

The salary was too high of course, but no problem with keeping Connor. 11 rushing TD's not sustainable at all. He still had 18 freaking TD's on the season, but still not a guarantee Kyler would have gotten them, since year 2 seems more like the fluke year than the norm.

The option was keeping him or Chase. Chase did nothing this year, so out of that it was the right call.

We could have rolled with Eno, Ward and a rookie. Which rookie RB? Eno off the team after how many starts? How's the rookie we have now?

We could pick up a RB in FA, how about a bruiser like Connor? How about a cheap one AND won SB? Oh right, we did, and he played a couple games before he got hurt.

Connor was fine. Overpay, sure, that's a fine argument. But the other options were either incorrect (Chase), or didn't work out anyway draft, FA.

 

[kerouac9]

The salary was too high of course, but no problem with keeping Connor. 11 rushing TD's not sustainable at all. He still had 18 freaking TD's on the season, but still not a guarantee Kyler would have gotten them, since year 2 seems more like the fluke year than the norm.

The option was keeping him or Chase. Chase did nothing this year, so out of that it was the right call.

We could have rolled with Eno, Ward and a rookie. Which rookie RB? Eno off the team after how many starts? How's the rookie we have now?

We could pick up a RB in FA, how about a bruiser like Connor? How about a cheap one AND won SB? Oh right, we did, and he played a couple games before he got hurt.

Connor was fine. Overpay, sure, that's a fine argument. But the other options were either incorrect (Chase), or didn't work out anyway draft, FA.

You can just ignore the argument that the Cards scored just as many rushing TDs the year before without Connor as with him, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. The Cards were better across the board, and they still scored the same amount of rushing TDs. Apparently that fact broke your brain.

The options were not keeping him or Chase. That's the false alternative that you're deciding to push.

We could have gotten Ronald Jones. We could have gotten Jerrick McKinnon. The RB position is fungible — there's no need to overpay for anyone. We could have waited until April or May and re-signed Conner (maybe).

Conner is fine until you factor in the contract. Then he's a disaster. Even running with Eno you might be able to make 17 games with him and Ward and Ingram because he's getting touches not mad about how the Cards are sitting on his free agency year.

 

[Zalixar]

You can just ignore the argument that the Cards scored just as many rushing TDs the year before without Connor as with him, but that doesn't change the fact that it happened. The Cards were better across the board, and they still scored the same amount of rushing TDs. Apparently that fact broke your brain.

The options were not keeping him or Chase. That's the false alternative that you're deciding to push.

We could have gotten Ronald Jones. We could have gotten Jerrick McKinnon. The RB position is fungible — there's no need to overpay for anyone. We could have waited until April or May and re-signed Conner (maybe).

Conner is fine until you factor in the contract. Then he's a disaster. Even running with Eno you might be able to make 17 games with him and Ward and Ingram because he's getting touches not mad about how the Cards are sitting on his free agency year.

You're gunna run it back but don't keep one of your top 2 RB's? What?

There were other options too, if you read. You keep or you draft/FA. We did them all and none worked out. "Narrative I'm trying to push," lmao. Who keeps pissing in your cereal dude? It's not me.

You just want to talk about TDs. Is that all he was worth? Well 18 is still a f**ton. He was plenty useful in the green as well.

Yes, Jones and McKinnon, who also didn't do much this year. Yeah, that would have totally been the right call even in hindsight. We would have won 10 games for sure with the difference in cap and production.

The gap in rushing TDS from year 1 to year 2 is almost the same as year 2 to year 3. What's your point? You think Kyler can sustain 10+ rushing TDs? I doubt he gets that again in his career. But I'm sure you'll be still whispering in your sleep how Connor "stole" his TD's years down the road.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Lost season? Most def. We're still handcuffed by the JC contract, though. Bad contract? Most def.

James Connor? We aren't handcuffed by that contract by any means. He is coming close to earning his contract too.

 

[football karma]

James Connor? We aren't handcuffed by that contract by any means. He is coming close to earning his contract too.

i disagree

sure, this year his cap hit is only $3.9mm -- so i guess he has earned that

but in 2023: his cap hit goes to $10mm. If you cut him, you save $250k and $9.75mm goes into the dead cap money pool.

it was a bad contract

 

[kerouac9]

You're gunna run it back but don't keep one of your top 2 RB's? What?

There were other options too, if you read. You keep or you draft/FA. We did them all and none worked out. "Narrative I'm trying to push," lmao. Who keeps pissing in your cereal dude? It's not me.

You just want to talk about TDs. Is that all he was worth? Well 18 is still a f**ton. He was plenty useful in the green as well.

Yes, Jones and McKinnon, who also didn't do much this year. Yeah, that would have totally been the right call even in hindsight. We would have won 10 games for sure with the difference in cap and production.

The gap in rushing TDS from year 1 to year 2 is almost the same as year 2 to year 3. What's your point? You think Kyler can sustain 10+ rushing TDs? I doubt he gets that again in his career. But I'm sure you'll be still whispering in your sleep how Connor "stole" his TD's years down the road.

Sure. RBs are fungible and expendable. If you buy your kid a James Conner Arizona Cardinals jersey you deserve what you get. Run back a team that flopped in the second half of the season and was a historic embarrassment in the playoffs? Please don't!

We did nothing because we gave James Conner a big contract and made him the bellcow back.

In 2021 James Conner got 41% of all rushing attempts, Chase Edmonds got 23% of all rushing attempts, and Kyler got 18%.

In 2022 James Conner has had 44% of all rushing attempts despite missing three-plus games with injury.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

i disagree

sure, this year his cap hit is only $3.9mm -- so i guess he has earned that

but in 2023: his cap hit goes to $10mm. If you cut him, you save $250k and $9.75mm goes into the dead cap money pool.

it was a bad contract

If you think the contract is bad, I'm not sure I'd agree.

We aren't handcuffed by that contract AT ALL.

 

[kerouac9]

If you think the contract is bad, I'm not sure I'd agree.

We aren't handcuffed by that contract AT ALL.

What do you mean by "handcuffed"?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What do you mean by "handcuffed"?

Ask Stout, as that was his phrase.

 

[kerouac9]

Ask Stout, as that was his phrase.

So you're using a word that you don't know the definition of super-confidently? I'm asking you because you're the one asserting in allcaps that we're not handcuffed at all.

What do you mean by that?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

So you're using a word that you don't know the definition of super-confidently? I'm asking you because you're the one asserting in allcaps that we're not handcuffed at all.

What do you mean by that?

Don't be like that.

My definition of 'handcuffed' is the team is prevented from making other moves due to this contract and/or the salary cap. That's definitely not the case with Connor.

 

[Zalixar]

Don't be like that.

My definition of 'handcuffed' is the team is prevented from making other moves due to this contract and/or the salary cap. That's definitely not the case with Connor.

He has a hate fetish with Connor. No point in arguing.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

He has a hate fetish with Connor. No point in arguing.

I like discussing my opinion. Even more so when it worth arguing.

 

[kerouac9]

Don't be like that.

My definition of 'handcuffed' is the team is prevented from making other moves due to this contract and/or the salary cap. That's definitely not the case with Connor.

KK. Thank you. Here are some facts:

• James Conner will have a cap hold over $10 million in 2023.
• That cap hold will be the seventh-highest on the team if you don't count Robbie Anderson's $12 million non-guaranteed number (LOL) but do count Rodney Hudson's $11 million number (more on this in a second).
• The Cards have over $23 million in 2023 cap space right now but just $1.6 million in Effective Cap Space (after signing 51 players and projecting rookie class).

I think the Cards are locked into having him on the roster in 2023 and would have better spent the $6-8 million he's being overpaid elsewhere on the roster.

Are they as handcuffed as they are by Rodney Hudson's contract? Probably not. Hudson is due a $1 million roster bonus on 3/21 to go with an $8.25 million salary. The Cards would probably prefer he retires, but have to make a decision on him by March 21. If he retires, he'll have $2.76 million in dead money in 2023 and $3.52 million in 2024. If the Cards cut him to save the $1 million, they'll free up an additional $5.73 million in cap space but eat a $5.3 million dead cap number (they can't designate him a Post-June 1st cut unless they pay the roster bonus).

 

[dreamcastrocks]

KK. Thank you. Here are some facts:

• James Conner will have a cap hold over $10 million in 2023.
• That cap hold will be the seventh-highest on the team if you don't count Robbie Anderson's $12 million non-guaranteed number (LOL) but do count Rodney Hudson's $11 million number (more on this in a second).
• The Cards have over $23 million in 2023 cap space right now but just $1.6 million in Effective Cap Space (after signing 51 players and projecting rookie class).

I think the Cards are locked into having him on the roster in 2023 and would have better spent the $6-8 million he's being overpaid elsewhere on the roster.

Are they as handcuffed as they are by Rodney Hudson's contract? Probably not. Hudson is due a $1 million roster bonus on 3/21 to go with an $8.25 million salary. The Cards would probably prefer he retires, but have to make a decision on him by March 21. If he retires, he'll have $2.76 million in dead money in 2023 and $3.52 million in 2024. If the Cards cut him to save the $1 million, they'll free up an additional $5.73 million in cap space but eat a $5.3 million dead cap number (they can't designate him a Post-June 1st cut unless they pay the roster bonus).

Do we really think that a 2 year 16M contract for Connor is terrible? I don't. I don't think it is great either. That is what it boils down to. They can cut him after next year with a 2M cap hit.

I also think they overpaid him a bit considering the fact that he wildly outplayed his 1 year 1.75M contract from before.

 

[kerouac9]

Do we really think that a 2 year 16M contract for Connor is terrible? I don't. I don't think it is great either. That is what it boils down to. They can cut him after next year with a 2M cap hit.

I also think they overpaid him a bit considering the fact that he wildly outplayed his 1 year 1.75M contract from before.

Yea, kind of. That should be the cap charge for your entire RB room for two years, not one guy.

It's hilarious to reframe this very bad and dumb three-year, $21 million dollar deal into a fairly bad and dumb two-year, $16 million contract. Even that average puts him among the top 10 highest-paid RBs in the league and he's nowhere close to that.