For you Contract Wizards - Hopkins & Conner

[ASUCHRIS]

If someone wanted to pay James Conner a big contract, you thank them very much and collect the comp pick the next year.

Exactly - the low cost guy hit for a year at a fungible position. Good teams don't overpay middling talent. Connor is just a guy.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Starting the season without a QB next year the Cardinals will need to run the ball more. Conner is that guy.

Connor isn't and will never be a bell cow! The more carries he gets, the less effective and more dinged up he is.

He was in a perfect situation last year as part of a split with Edmonds. More carries for Connor spells more disappointment. You build around Nuk, not Connor.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It depends on the player you're using creative accounting to accommodate. I don't love having $8 million or so hanging over the Cards for the next two years, but I enjoyed 1.5 seasons of J.J. Watt.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to work out that you make special effort for special players, not for James Conner and Jordan Phillips.

It is because I don't think you understand that nearly all multi-year contracts use creative accounting, not just the special players.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

If someone wanted to pay James Conner a big contract, you thank them very much and collect the comp pick the next year.

That is great in a perfect world. You can't just go... 'Oh well, I'll worry about that position and player next year when I get the comp pick.' Especially when you don't have a deep team like us.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Nope. They could have gone after someone else or turned to the draft. He was not a must sign.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I am not implying that he was the 'missing piece,' just a necessary one. There was no one on the team that has his skillset, and the FA market was pretty bare too.

By definition if you believe he was “necessary” then failing to re-sign him would’ve made him the “missing piece.”

 

[dreamcastrocks]

By definition if you believe he was “necessary” then failing to re-sign him would’ve made him the “missing piece.”

There is a difference between 'a piece' and 'the missing piece.'

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That is great in a perfect world. You can't just go... 'Oh well, I'll worry about that position and player next year when I get the comp pick.' Especially when you don't have a deep team like us.

Surely you’re suggesting the cards choices were Conner or just eno/ward for the season, right?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

There is a difference between 'a piece' and 'the missing piece.'

Not if you deem it “necessary” (your word, not mine).

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Surely you’re suggesting the cards choices were Conner or just eno/ward for the season, right?

Not the only two, no. I think the Cards choices were Conner or Edmunds + eno/ward + draft pick.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Not if you deem it “necessary” (your word, not mine).

At this point we are arguing semantics and implication. Conner or Edmunds needed to be re-signed. That didn't make them 'the missing piece' in a successful season or not as what was originally discussed. If you were trying to compete this year, (and the Cards clearly were) then you could not go into this year not signing one of Conner/Edmunds leaving Eno/Ward as the starter.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm totally fine with keeping Conner and it makes no sense to get rid of him cap wise at this point.

Plus he is what the team will need next year. Hopefully the Cardinals will move away from Kliff's college based shotgun WR screen disaster of an offense. Starting the season without a QB next year the Cardinals will need to run the ball more. Conner is that guy.

Conner is not that guy. Conner is a receiving and goal line back who will get injured if you're giving him 12+ touches a game for long. In some ways he's the RB version of Colt McCoy -- great if you can sprinkle him in, but the more you lean on him the less you're going to get back.

It spoke volumes that we were starting David Blough and Trace McSorely and couldn't lean on Conner.

That is great in a perfect world. You can't just go... 'Oh well, I'll worry about that position and player next year when I get the comp pick.' Especially when you don't have a deep team like us.

You kind of can at RB. If we went into the season with Eno Benjamin and Keaontay Ingram and Darrel Williams, that's an acceptable room to compete with.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Conner is not that guy. Conner is a receiving and goal line back who will get injured if you're giving him 12+ touches a game for long. In some ways he's the RB version of Colt McCoy -- great if you can sprinkle him in, but the more you lean on him the less you're going to get back.

It spoke volumes that we were starting David Blough and Trace McSorely and couldn't lean on Conner.

We couldn't count on 10 of our 11 offensive starters to be healthy. It was and is a crazy year.

You kind of can at RB. If we went into the season with Eno Benjamin and Keaontay Ingram and Darrel Williams, that's an acceptable room to compete with.

Show me an RB room that is less talented than that, and is successful and I would concede. That would probably be the worst RB room in the league.

 

[kerouac9]

It is because I don't think you understand that nearly all multi-year contracts use creative accounting, not just the special players.

Christian Kirk Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

Christian Kirk contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

Please highlight the creative accounting.

Tyreek Hill Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

Tyreek Hill contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

Please highlight the creative accounting.

A.J. Brown Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

A.J. Brown contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

This has voidable years and a fifth year that has no chance of having a $30 million base salary with a $41 million cap number, but this is a fairly straightforward extension structure.

I didn't look around for these; I just tried to remember the biggest free agent deals of last year.

 

[kerouac9]

We couldn't count on 10 of our 11 offensive starters to be healthy. It was and is a crazy year.

Show me an RB room that is less talented than that, and is successful and I would concede. That would probably be the worst RB room in the league.

What does "successful" mean?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What does "successful" mean?

How about if I use the word 'average' instead. Would that work?

 

[Devilmaycare]

RB is now a position that you just need someone serviceable in with the modern offenses, especially with what the Cards were trying to run. You just churn through a new guy that's looking to prove himself, like they did with Drake and Conner, but you don't give those guys big contracts. Use them then move to the next guy next year or use mid to high round draft picks.

Last year Conner was a glorified full back that Keim gave too big of a contract to instead of moving on to the next guy up or making Conner drop his price.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Christian Kirk Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

Christian Kirk contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

Please highlight the creative accounting.

Tyreek Hill Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

Tyreek Hill contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

Please highlight the creative accounting.

A.J. Brown Contract Details, Salary Cap Charges, Bonus Money, and Contract History | Over The Cap

A.J. Brown contract and salary cap details, including signing bonus, guaranteed salary, dead money, roster bonuses, and contract history

overthecap.com

This has voidable years and a fifth year that has no chance of having a $30 million base salary with a $41 million cap number, but this is a fairly straightforward extension structure.

I didn't look around for these; I just tried to remember the biggest free agent deals of last year.

I thought we weren't supposed to bring up voidable years? That is what I am talking about. Along with having some years have a higher cap value that others.

 

[kerouac9]

I thought we weren't supposed to bring up voidable years? That is what I am talking about. Along with having some years have a higher cap value that others.

Okay, so only one of the three contracts from last year had voidable years. Increasing cap values are fine and normal, especially for top-line players and as the salary cap increases. It doesn't seem like 33% is "nearly all multi-year contracts."

Is this something you're willing to admit you're wrong about?

 

[kerouac9]

How about if I use the word 'average' instead. Would that work?

What does "average" mean? And how do you measure "talented"?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

What does "average" mean?

We'd have to agree to some kind of metric right? Within the top 20?

And how do you measure "talented"?

That one is much harder to quantify for sure, but I think you know the point I am trying to make.

 

[kerouac9]

We'd have to agree to some kind of metric right? Within the top 20?


That one is much harder to quantify for sure, but I think you know the point I am trying to make.

Maybe within the top 18 by rushing DVOA as a production metric?

For talent -- can we say a FA on a one-year contract + 2 day-three draft picks on their first contract? Can we use that as a stand-in for "talent"?

My point is that you don't have to invest big dollars/draft capital to have a productive run game. We'll never know if Eno would have had 800 yards and 7 TDs had he gotten the carries in this offense.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Okay, so only one of the three contracts from last year had voidable years. Increasing cap values are fine and normal, especially for top-line players and as the salary cap increases. It doesn't seem like 33% is "nearly all multi-year contracts."

Is this something you're willing to admit you're wrong about?

I'm willing to elaborate...

The Tyreke Hill contract has a huge escalation from 21 to 43 million the final year, same as AJ Brown from 15 to 30. Plus AJ Brown is doing the same 'having cap space allocated to a player that wouldn't be on the team' in years 5 and 6 of a 4 year deal. So that's 2 of the 3.

Small sample size but those prove what I was saying. The Cards decided to make most of the money in Conner's 2nd year when they had a ton of cap space.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Maybe within the top 18 by rushing DVOA as a production metric?

18-20 seems close, why not.

For talent -- can we say a FA on a one-year contract + 2 day-three draft picks on their first contract? Can we use that as a stand-in for "talent"?

If we can find one close to Connor's skillset, sure. It was clear that this team wanted someone who could pick up the tough yards when necessary.

My point is that you don't have to invest big dollars/draft capital to have a productive run game. We'll never know if Eno would have had 800 yards and 7 TDs had he gotten the carries in this offense.

I don't disagree on principal.

 

[SissyBoyFloyd]

I suppose I am alone, for I like Conner, thought we needed him, and, excluding the injuries, thought he was a good 2 year player to have in your team.