Fresh Start? (again)

[Chaz]

I am actually kind of excited again about Suns basketball. True we got killed by the Kings the other day but I like a lot of the pieces thay have.

I like Steph, but the offense had become so stagnant and stale. I don't think we needed to dump Steph to get better but Penny's contract was a huge weight and restriction to getting better.
A week ago the team was losing and there were not many options. A huge trade later and while there have not been better results on the floor the hope, for me at least, has returned.

I even like Dice and Eisley. The addition of these veterans along with the return of Amare and Zarko return some excitement and interest to the games.
While chances for the playoffs are extremely thin and none. I am looking forward to watching this team grow and develop.

To bad there is no developmental team were guys like Lampe can get some PT.

Go SUNS.

 

[SirStefan32]

The most exitting thing is that we can finally talk about FA's. Add a couple of lottery pick coming up, and the future looks promising.

 

[Goldfield]

I agree, I think having Barbosa & that other PG next year will be real fun to watch.


I dont think losing Marbury hurts us that much because Barbosa is doing OK, and the other guys get more involved.

The one thing we did lose in the trade is a go to guy. That will hurt the most.

 

[Espo]

Hold your breath on the free agency thing. We dont exactly have a great track record when it comes to that. We have got most of our big name guys, Sir Charles, Kidd, Marburry, McDyess (the first and second time), KJ, and Chambers, all through trades so i'm not to excited about our free agency decisions. We could just wind up with the next googs. I would like to see a trade for a big name leave kobe to rought with the clippers and go get t-mac.

 

[Chaplin]

In a few weeks, we'll see that Eisley becomes our next Penny. I actually like what he brings to the team, but like Penny, we'll be hampered by his contract.

Hopefully, Howard Eisley won't win every poll on Suns.com though.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
In a few weeks, we'll see that Eisley becomes our next Penny. I actually like what he brings to the team, but like Penny, we'll be hampered by his contract.

Hopefully, Howard Eisley won't win every poll on Suns.com though.

I would guess that moving Eisely wil the Suns first priority this summer, especially if Milos Vujanic signs.

The one thing I can say about Eisely compared to Penny. Eisely is probably $2 to 2.5 million overpaid. Penny was at least $11 million overpaid.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by PHX Phan
Hold your breath on the free agency thing. We dont exactly have a great track record when it comes to that. We have got most of our big name guys, Sir Charles, Kidd, Marburry, McDyess (the first and second time), KJ, and Chambers, all through trades so i'm not to excited about our free agency decisions. We could just wind up with the next googs. I would like to see a trade for a big name leave kobe to rought with the clippers and go get t-mac.

Tom Chambers wasn't acquired in a trade. If I remember correctly he was the first free-agent in the NBA.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Tom Chambers wasn't acquired in a trade. If I remember correctly he was the first free-agent in the NBA.

Joe Mama

Chambers was clearly a straight free agent.

Other than Chambers, the Suns have had far more luck with mid cap and minimum free agents than high end ones (either straight of sign and trade deals). They got good value from Manning, Robinson, Rogers, and Delk to name but a few that come to mind.

 

[Chaz]

I don't hold out much hope for FA this offseason. Do we really want to commit to a huge contract of the type Bryant would warrant?

I think a more modest FA plan would be in order with emphasis on development and continuity from within.

Without any big commitments to a given course no more huge reversals would be necessary.

What happens if the Suns sell out everything to get Bryant and we still are not close to a championship? I think the Suns would be better off trying to aquire and develop the next superstar than committing everything to getting the current one.

 

[Espo]

i stand corrected on the chambers thing. I just dont think a big name free agent is where it is at for us. We have been good with role players through free agency and we know how to get big name talent through trades.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SirChaz
I don't hold out much hope for FA this offseason. Do we really want to commit to a huge contract of the type Bryant would warrant?

I think a more modest FA plan would be in order with emphasis on development and continuity from within.

Without any big commitments to a given course no more huge reversals would be necessary.

What happens if the Suns sell out everything to get Bryant and we still are not close to a championship? I think the Suns would be better off trying to aquire and develop the next superstar than committing everything to getting the current one.

I think that is best path. The Suns have a lot of very promising players that will come up for contract renewal in a few years. The last thing I would want is the kind of fiasco that Golden State had when the couldn't re-sign Arenas due to cap problems (it was a weird situation).

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirChaz
I don't hold out much hope for FA this offseason. Do we really want to commit to a huge contract of the type Bryant would warrant?

Again, whether it is possible or not, Bryant is the sort of player that you do anything to get, regardless of his salary. He's that good.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, whether it is possible or not, Bryant is the sort of player that you do anything to get, regardless of his salary. He's that good.

Anything?

I can imagine a number of scenerios that would get Kobe and destroy the team. I'm nervious enough about the money needed and the chemistry, but there are many other things like trading Amare that would simply not be acceptable (I'm sure you didn't mean to include that option).

In the right circumstances having a stud at that level changes the team and makes them an instant contender. But Orlando shows that it is eqaully possible to screw it up big time.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The Orlando analogy isn't fair. He is the only player on his team. His only decent counterpart was traded for two guys who can't play defense.

We have a solid core that a superstar could walk into. Orlando had, and pretty much has nothing besides TMac. Howard isn't playing well, Gooden doesn't look so hot ect. ect.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
The Orlando analogy isn't fair. He is the only player on his team. His only decent counterpart was traded for two guys who can't play defense.

We have a solid core that a superstar could walk into. Orlando had, and pretty much has nothing besides TMac. Howard isn't playing well, Gooden doesn't look so hot ect. ect.

My point was that "do anything" must be interpreted as "within reason".

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
My point was that "do anything" must be interpreted as "within reason".

agreed. However, short of giving away Amare, you should try everything you have to get Kobe IMO.

Of course assuming all legal matters are taken care of

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien
Anything?

I can imagine a number of scenerios that would get Kobe and destroy the team. I'm nervious enough about the money needed and the chemistry, but there are many other things like trading Amare that would simply not be acceptable (I'm sure you didn't mean to include that option).

In the right circumstances having a stud at that level changes the team and makes them an instant contender. But Orlando shows that it is eqaully possible to screw it up big time.

I'm trying to figure out if you're just not understanding or are absolutely against getting Kobe.

I'm just wondering why the possibility of getting a basketball player like Kobe Bryant would be bad to some people. (Trial not withstanding)

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm trying to figure out if you're just not understanding or are absolutely against getting Kobe.

I'm just wondering why the possibility of getting a basketball player like Kobe Bryant would be bad to some people. (Trial not withstanding)

That is also a problem because the trial does enter into the decision in the real world. I think it is way premature to seriously talk about Kobe in particular because of the trial.

The clearing that we have done has created options. I am sure we will have many opportunities this summer beside Kobe to improve the team.

 

[creed]

about Kobe..

Why not go after Kobe? He's probably one of the best if not THE best SG out there. We need a main star "go to" guy and he's one of the best...EXTREMELY clutch.

We just have a "going to jail" escape clause (morals clause?) in his contract or we can trade him if he just doesn't work out with he team.

 

[Chaz]

On the court Amare and Kobe would be a nice tandem. With some of the other possible pieces in place, I agree they could be championship caliber.

I would not be in favor of signing him or giving up anything to get him until he is acquitted.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm trying to figure out if you're just not understanding or are absolutely against getting Kobe.

I'm just wondering why the possibility of getting a basketball player like Kobe Bryant would be bad to some people. (Trial not withstanding)

My biggest concern is the money. We had a long debate on the this board about the danger of max contracts as they related to Marbury and Marion. The problem is not that a Kobe is not great, but that once you sign someone like that, that is pretty much the team you have to win it all with. Maybe you can pick up a role player or two, but mid cap is about it.

I put together a spread sheet to show what I am talking about. I've taken the current roster and discontinued the contracts of White, Eisley, and Jacobsen at the earliest points then can. I simply plugged in Marbury's contract and then ran everyone else out to 08/09 at the same amount they finished with. This is too low, but it shows the issues.

04/05 05/06 06/07 06/07 07/08
Bryant 14.6 16.5 18.3 20.1 21.9
Marion 11.3 12.6 13.8 15.1 16.4
Stoudemire 2.0 2.6 3.5 3.5 3.5
Johnson 2.4 3.2 3.2 3.2 3.2
Voskuhl 1.7 1.9 1.9 1.9 1.9
Cabakapa 1.3 1.4 2.2 3.0 3.0
Barbosa 0.9 0.9 1.7 2.5 2.5
Lampe 0.9 1.0 1.0 1.0 1.0
Jacobsen 1.1
White 5.9
Eisley 6.4 6.9
48.5 47.0 45.6 50.3 53.4

Even if the Suns can move White, it only gets them down to $42.5 million. This means that just drafting just one player puts them over the limit.

Even withoug White and Jacobsen in 05/06, the Suns are still over cap without having signed draft picks in 04/05 or 05/06 on a roster of only 9 players. Even when Eisley is gone in 06/07, the Suns are at $45.6 and they jump to $53 million in 08/09 with no other players, no draft picks, no mid cap free agents or anything.

These numbers are far too low. Stoudemire will need more money. Lampe will need more money. Barbosa will need more money.

One of my biggest concerns is at center. If Lampe is the guy, then there is no problem. But if the Suns have to get strong defensive center through free agency, they will have to pay more than mid cap.

The Suns risk losing some of their key players with a max cap guy. So, if they are going to make a run it has to be in about two to three years because they will be hitting free agency at about the same time.

My thought is that a max cap guy should be the last major piece of the puzzle. If he isn't, there is not much flexibility left.

 

[cly2tw]

George,

you just proved to us that it'd be hard to add more fitting pieces for a championship team with your scenario, even with Kobe on board. What's the implication? It's imperative to get rid of Marion's max contract, for cap!

Bryant 14.6 16.5

Stoudemire 2.0 2.6
Johnson 2.4 3.2
Voskuhl 1.7 1.9
Cabakapa 1.3 1.4
Barbosa 0.9 0.9
Lampe 0.9 1.0
Jacobsen 1.1
White 5.9
Eisley 6.4 6.9

We'd be at 37.4 and 34.3 mil committed salary in summer 2004 and 2005 respectively. We could for example add vets like Marshall, Jim Jachson, or even Dice, so that we'd have talent, youth and experience at each position with a dominating Kobe for clutch. Or alternatively, add a high price FA at a postion other than SF.

 

[Wally]

You are leaving out Milos Vujanic who by all indications will be with the Suns next year. I really think Eisley will be gone, if not, White will be gone one of the two, maybe both. Anyway that could change things.

 

[creed]

Kobe doesn't have to sign for absolute max his first year. The contract could be a for a couple mill less than max but have big raises as Suns payroll comes down. There are different ways it could be structured. It really depends how bad Kobe wanted out and if he's willing to structure things accoringly.

OR

Maybe just trade Marion outright and even package Eisley with him. That would free up all kinds of money.

 

[cly2tw]

Actuelly, though overpaid, Eisley can be very effective in a structured offense as shown back in his Utah days, when he was not really under any pressure. So, with the inexperience of Barbosa and Vujanic, it'd be good if we keep Eisley as a solid backup for a while, not to mention his contract is difficult to unload anyway.