Give me ANYTHING, that convinces me that Kolb has more upside than Skelton

[Phrazbit]

You mean Orton for Miami and they were wrong on that. Hell people on here were wrong on what they were asking for compensation for him (Denver wanted a first and more for him, people here thought they were just asking for a 2nd or maybe a third).

There were reports that there were other teams interested. There were reports that we were basically bidding against ourselves. Who to believe?

All of the reports of other teams being interested were before free agency got going. Within a 24 hours of free agency starting there were no reports about anyone besides Arizona having an interest in Kolb.

 

[The Commish]

Kolb plays with everything to lose, Skelton plays with nothing to lose. Unfortunately neither is the future of this franchise.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Again, proof? The QB market is thin as it is. So somebody who had shown anything (like say five 300 yard games) becomes in demand and with supply low, they could ask for more.

Simple supply-demand dynamic. Ever take economics?

I still don't know what to make of Kolb when we have so many damned problems on this team its hard to evaluate one position like that. Our offense has taken steps backwards and it isn't all on the Qb play no matter how much certain people want to make it.

This has nothing to do about supply-demand, this is all based upon desperation. I can find the articles for you, but there are more than several sources that stated on multiple occasions that AZ was the 'last' team that was interested in Kolb. Which meant that AZ should've had more leverage in negotiations, but because they were desperate, they gave up more than they should've to get Kolb as soon as they could. Just look at the Oakland/Bengals trade, they got Carson Palmer for a first and a conditional second round pick for a PRO BOWL QB who had tons of experience. AZ gave up practically the same thing for a QB who couldn't even beat out McNabb and had horrible stats throughout his entire career.

Practically everyone was shocked AZ gave up what we did for Kolb, and the only excuse as to why was, "we desperately needed a QB'. Philly's FO was applauded for getting what they did considering the circumstances.

 

[TJ]

This has nothing to do about supply-demand, this is all based upon desperation. I can find the articles for you, but there are more than several sources that stated on multiple occasions that AZ was the 'last' team that was interested in Kolb. Which meant that AZ should've had more leverage in negotiations, but because they were desperate, they gave up more than they should've to get Kolb as soon as they could. Just look at the Oakland/Bengals trade, they got Carson Palmer for a first and a conditional second round pick for a PRO BOWL QB who had tons of experience. AZ gave up practically the same thing for a QB who couldn't even beat out McNabb and had horrible stats throughout his entire career.

Technically he did. Eagles traded McNabb and anointed Kolb the starter in 2010.

 

[Evil Ash]

This has nothing to do about supply-demand, this is all based upon desperation. I can find the articles for you, but there are more than several sources that stated on multiple occasions that AZ was the 'last' team that was interested in Kolb. Which meant that AZ should've had more leverage in negotiations, but because they were desperate, they gave up more than they should've to get Kolb as soon as they could. Just look at the Oakland/Bengals trade, they got Carson Palmer for a first and a conditional second round pick for a PRO BOWL QB who had tons of experience. AZ gave up practically the same thing for a QB who couldn't even beat out McNabb and had horrible stats throughout his entire career.

Practically everyone was shocked AZ gave up what we did for Kolb, and the only excuse as to why was, "we desperately needed a QB'. Philly's FO was applauded for getting what they did considering the circumstances.

There were also reports that we had handshake done deals with Hasselbeck, Bulger and a list of other QBs. There has been so much screwed up/made up during this whole time its hard to know what was factual anymore. The Eagles may have used this to their advantage with Kolb and made the Cards overpay.

I don't know, you don't know. There are only a few people that do know and they aren't talking so until one of them comes out and says that the Cards were bidding against themselves, we don't really know.

Quite frankly I'm so friggin tired of this topic anyways. QB isn't our main problem and its becoming more and more evident.

 

[TJ]

There were also reports that we had handshake done deals with Hasselbeck, Bulger and a list of other QBs. There has been so much screwed up/made up during this whole time its hard to know what was factual anymore. The Eagles may have used this to their advantage with Kolb and made the Cards overpay.

I don't know, you don't know. There are only a few people that do know and they aren't talking so until one of them comes out and says that the Cards were bidding against themselves, we don't really know.

Quite frankly I'm so friggin tired of this topic anyways. QB isn't our main problem and its becoming more and more evident.

Ding ding ding!!

And the back and forth about Kolb, his trade value, and production thus far should end there.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Technically he did. Eagles traded McNabb and anointed Kolb the starter in 2010.

Kolb didn't beat him out, they traded away McNabb before he lost trade value. Eagles tried to make Kolb starter, but he got injured and Vick never looked back. That was the line for Kolb, once the Eagles knew he could never be depended on, they hyped him up as much as possible and completely man-handled the Cards in negotiations.

As Sando put it, "Kolb is just 26 years old. If he were a surefire franchise quarterback, the Eagles never would have traded him. They would have signed Kolb to a long-term deal even before Michael Vick emerged as the best option for them."

 

[TJ]

Kolb didn't beat him out, they traded away McNabb before he lost trade value. Eagles tried to make Kolb starter, but he got injured and Vick never looked back. That was the line for Kolb, once the Eagles knew he could never be depended on, they hyped him up as much as possible and completely man-handled the Cards in negotiations.

As Sando put it, "Kolb is just 26 years old. If he were a surefire franchise quarterback, the Eagles never would have traded him. They would have signed Kolb to a long-term deal even before Michael Vick emerged as the best option for them."

Spin it how you want, but the same things you're saying to me about Kolb could easily apply to McNabb.

Additionally, how do you think Philly fans would have reacted had they traded away Vick after an MVP caliber season? They had no other choice but to trade Kolb. It was either hold onto Kolb in 2011 and lose him outright the following year or get something for him.

And while they didnt give Kolb a long-term deal, they did unnecessarily give him a $10mil one-year extension.

 

[Evil Ash]

Kolb didn't beat him out, they traded away McNabb before he lost trade value. Eagles tried to make Kolb starter, but he got injured and Vick never looked back. That was the line for Kolb, once the Eagles knew he could never be depended on, they hyped him up as much as possible and completely man-handled the Cards in negotiations.

As Sando put it, "Kolb is just 26 years old. If he were a surefire franchise quarterback, the Eagles never would have traded him. They would have signed Kolb to a long-term deal even before Michael Vick emerged as the best option for them."

They signed him to a contract extension. He was annointed the starter and lost his starting job due to injury/Vick playing out of his mind.

Again I have a hard time pointing to him as the problem when we rush for 70 yards against a team that usually gives up 160 or so and our Oline continues to be treated like a redheaded stepchild

 

[Phrazbit]

Well, our problem is either coaching or the QB.

I think its a combination of both. Bad QB play combine with an offensive system designed around the assumption of high level QB play.

The line isnt good but Skelton only took 2 hits today that were not avoidable, granted he slipped out of pressure several times. But overall the line looked much much better with a QB who didnt constantly run away from his help.

The running problems today I think had more to do with Wells not being healthy. Wells was basically running straight today, no cutting at all and no pushing through those arm tackles.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Spin it how you want, but the same things you're saying to me about Kolb could easily apply to McNabb.

Additionally, how do you think Philly fans would have reacted had they traded away Vick after an MVP caliber season? They had no other choice but to trade Kolb. It was either hold onto Kolb in 2011 and lose him outright the following year or get something for him.

And while they didnt give Kolb a long-term deal, they did unnecessarily give him a $10mil one-year extension.

This is exactly why the entire Cards FO needs to be replaced. Kolb was going to walk away after this year for nothing, but AZ negotiated against themselves and gave up way more than they should've. If the Cards were smart, which they aren't, they would've used the leverage of being the last team in contention for him, and the fact that Kolb would walk away next year for nothing in return. The Cards bet everything on the fact that Kolb was going to be an instant success, and the Eagles took full advantage of it. Had AZ not been so desperate, and threatened to walk away from negotiations, the Eagles would've taken A LOT less to at least get anything for Kolb.

They signed him to a contract extension. He was annointed the starter and lost his starting job due to injury/Vick playing out of his mind.

Again I have a hard time pointing to him as the problem when we rush for 70 yards against a team that usually gives up 160 or so and our Oline continues to be treated like a redheaded stepchild

It's no secret this team is horrible at practically every position. Just imagine if we had a competent FO, then Whiz could focus on coaching rather than what senior citizen is retiring from the Steelers every year.

 

[Evil Ash]

Well, our problem is either coaching or the QB.

I think its a combination of both. Bad QB play combine with an offensive system designed around the assumption of high level QB play.

The line isnt good but Skelton only took 2 hits today that were not avoidable, granted he slipped out of pressure several times. But overall the line looked much much better with a QB who didnt constantly run away from his help.

The running problems today I think had more to do with Wells not being healthy. Wells was basically running straight today, no cutting at all and no pushing through those arm tackles.

Yeah "minor" detail that you are just going blowing by there. Sacks aren't the only problem, constant pressure is another.

No matter the QB that is lining back up there, its a major problem. Our offense (at least when running well) relies heavily on timing. How do you think constant pressure affects timing? Here's a hint - IT DOESN'T HELP IT

 

[AzStevenCal]

Both Schefter and Lombardi confirmed that AZ was the only team left in the running for Kolb, after Seattle got Jackson, and Miami was only interested in Olson, AZ was the last team in it for Kolb, which is why both were so surprised that we gave up so much for Kolb. AZ bid against themselves, I thought everyone knew this...

I'd like to see those articles. I do remember at least one of the main talking heads saying something like this except for the "so surprised" part. My recollection was that he (Schefter, I believe) was making the point that it was down to just us because we had outbid the others, not that they had walked away because of no interest.

Steve

 

[Evil Ash]

This is exactly why the entire Cards FO needs to be replaced. Kolb was going to walk away after this year for nothing, but AZ negotiated against themselves and gave up way more than they should've. If the Cards were smart, which they aren't, they would've used the leverage of being the last team in contention for him, and the fact that Kolb would walk away next year for nothing in return. The Cards bet everything on the fact that Kolb was going to be an instant success, and the Eagles took full advantage of it. Had AZ not been so desperate, and threatened to walk away from negotiations, the Eagles would've taken A LOT less to at least get anything for Kolb.



It's no secret this team is horrible at practically every position. Just imagine if we had a competent FO, then Whiz could focus on coaching rather than what senior citizen is retiring from the Steelers every year.

Whiz is coaching. He's doing it badly. We passed way more than we run against a team that was dead last against the run (not bottom tier, DEAD LAST)

Our coaching staff has admitted that they didn't make any changes to our scheme to fit the talent until LAST WEEK. Tell me what competent coach makes no adjustments for talent until around the halfway point of the season.

 

[PACardsFan]

As it pertains to the Kolb trade, the reality is that the Cardinals HAD to be desperate. Have we forgotten that without the Kolb trade, we would NEVER have resigned Fitz. I listened to the 1st half & watched the second half today. All things considered, Skelton played rather well. He was under duress all day & had no running game whatsoever! He may or may not be the answer. Kolb may or may not be the answer. No one likes the answer, but it's way too early to write off either of these guys. The biggest problem area that needs to be addressed is Russ Grimm. I'm not sold that we don't have some talent on our line. I am sold on the fact that the unit has been lousy during his entire tenure.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

I'd like to see those articles. I do remember at least one of the main talking heads saying something like this except for the "so surprised" part. My recollection was that he (Schefter, I believe) was making the point that it was down to just us because we had outbid the others, not that they had walked away because of no interest.

Steve

Here's a couple for you:

http://www.bleedinggreennation.com/...ill-be-traded-for-dominique-rodgers-cromartie

It makes sense that the talks are no progressing after Matt Hasselbeck signed in Tennessee and Kyle Orton is reportedly on the verge of a move to Miami. Really, the QB market has shrunk down to Kolb as the only viable guy left and the Cardinals as the only viable destination

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/28/cardinals-give-up-huge-bounty-to-acquire-kolb/

What a gamble. The move will define the rest of the Ken Whisenhunt/Rod Graves era in Arizona.
They were absolutely desperate for a quarterback solution in the desert, and they acted like it.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/42303/kolb-to-cards-is-eye-of-beholder-deal

And the consensus first reaction seems to be that the Eagles pulled some kind of Jedi mind trick on the Cardinals and fleeced them

As far as it stands right now, the Cards DID get absolutely dominated in negotiations. This, above all things, should be the end of Rod Graves.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I listened to the 1st half & watched the second half today. All things considered, Skelton played rather well. He was under duress all day & had no running game whatsoever! He may or may not be the answer. Kolb may or may not be the answer. No one likes the answer, but it's way too early to write off either of these guys. The biggest problem area that needs to be addressed is Russ Grimm. I'm not sold that we don't have some talent on our line. I am sold on the fact that the unit has been lousy during his entire tenure.

I watched the 1st half and followed the 2nd half on the internet. In the 1st half I thought Skelton did next to nothing but the Cards didn't have the ball all that much. The Rams definitely sold out to stop the run.

 

[Sunryze88]

It's funny how you say give Kolb some time....well give Skelton some time...he already has pulled off 2 clutch scoring drives in career. Plus its hard to to win the game when it is completely on your shoulders because we had no running game at all.

 

[Phrazbit]

It's funny how you say give Kolb some time....well give Skelton some time...he already has pulled off 2 clutch scoring drives in career. Plus its hard to to win the game when it is completely on your shoulders because we had no running game at all.

In all the Kolb vs Skelton arguing, and the insanity of the final Rams possession and OT, that drive by Skelton has been pushed by the wayside. He did a lot of impressive stuff. Some great throws, great footwork and 2 monster runs that combined for nearly 30 yards. And the throw to Fitz was a perfect throw against some tight coverage.

 

[187]

This has nothing to do about supply-demand, this is all based upon desperation. I can find the articles for you, but there are more than several sources that stated on multiple occasions that AZ was the 'last' team that was interested in Kolb. Which meant that AZ should've had more leverage in negotiations, but because they were desperate, they gave up more than they should've to get Kolb as soon as they could. Just look at the Oakland/Bengals trade, they got Carson Palmer for a first and a conditional second round pick for a PRO BOWL QB who had tons of experience. AZ gave up practically the same thing for a QB who couldn't even beat out McNabb and had horrible stats throughout his entire career.

Practically everyone was shocked AZ gave up what we did for Kolb, and the only excuse as to why was, "we desperately needed a QB'. Philly's FO was applauded for getting what they did considering the circumstances.

I don't even care about this entire argument but LOL @ acting like Carson Palmer is still a Pro Bowl caliber QB. He hasn't been Pro Bowl worthy since '07 and even then he was an INT macine, the guy has been nothing but a mediocre QB ever since he had knee surgery. Oakland got fleeced just as bad as we did. A 1st and 2nd rounder for Palmer is borderline robbery for a 31yo QB on the decline. Kolb isn't much better, but at least he's younger and hasn't been proven his mediocrity over the previous two seasons as a full time starter like Carson.

If only Kolb had the footwork and pocket presence that Skelton does, good lord it is night and day. Add Kolb's short to midrange accuracy to Skelton and we'd be on to something decent. Amazing how Andre Roberts suddenly was making plays again. It's not because he's been blanketed the past month, it's because Kolb doesn't read through progressions and is too busy locking onto Larry or a TE.

 

[Sunryze88]

In all the Kolb vs Skelton arguing, and the insanity of the final Rams possession and OT, that drive by Skelton has been pushed by the wayside. He did a lot of impressive stuff. Some great throws, great footwork and 2 monster runs that combined for nearly 30 yards. And the throw to Fitz was a perfect throw against some tight coverage.

He did, I don't hate Kolb, I hope he does turn out better next year and becomes our QBOF, but its funny how people are quick to bash Skelton.

 

[52brandon]

He did, I don't hate Kolb, I hope he does turn out better next year and becomes our QBOF, but its funny how people are quick to bash Skelton.

Skelton is our Tim Tebow. The devout cult fans always talking about how he's the future create the devout detractors

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

I don't even care about this entire argument but LOL @ acting like Carson Palmer is still a Pro Bowl caliber QB. He hasn't been Pro Bowl worthy since '07 and even then he was an INT macine, the guy has been nothing but a mediocre QB ever since he had knee surgery. Oakland got fleeced just as bad as we did. A 1st and 2nd rounder for Palmer is borderline robbery for a 31yo QB on the decline. Kolb isn't much better, but at least he's younger and hasn't been proven his mediocrity over the previous two seasons as a full time starter like Carson.

If only Kolb had the footwork and pocket presence that Skelton does, good lord it is night and day. Add Kolb's short to midrange accuracy to Skelton and we'd be on to something decent. Amazing how Andre Roberts suddenly was making plays again. It's not because he's been blanketed the past month, it's because Kolb doesn't read through progressions and is too busy locking onto Larry or a TE.

I never said Carson was good, just stating the facts. I thought the Raiders definitely over paid, but they got a proven product, where as the Cards did not, and for virtually the same price. Kolb 'could' be good, but he's terribly inconsistent and misses wide open opportunities, not good for a QB at any level.

 

[Phrazbit]

Skelton is our Tim Tebow. The devout cult fans always talking about how he's the future create the devout detractors

I dont see the comparison. In Tebow's case he lacks a lot of the fundamental tools. He has lousy arm strength, bad mechanics, a really really slow release and no awareness.

While Skelton certainly has a lot of natural ability. He has a cannon, good footwork, quick release. But he lacks for accuracy, and he does not read defenses well.

When I say I would rather see Skelton in there than Kolb I am not claiming that I think Skelton is a future pro-bowler. Its just I see a lot more raw potential and talent there than I see in Kolb, who I think has no real strengths as a QB.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It's funny how you say give Kolb some time....well give Skelton some time...he already has pulled off 2 clutch scoring drives in career. Plus its hard to to win the game when it is completely on your shoulders because we had no running game at all.

The main reason we had no running game is because the Rams played to stop the run and weren't worried about a passing threat. The weird thing is Skelton never made them pay for that but moved the ball when they were expecting pass on the last drive. Then again, about 30 yards of that drive was him running. Teams are going to play the Cards like that until Skelton shows he can make them pay for it. They would do that to any young QB.