Here's your Suns first round pick in 2005 draft...

[Chaplin]

but chap, you never have to "rebuild" if you're continually building. if you always take the best player then your team continues to grow. if you start taking less talented players b/c they are more ready they may help you a little in the short term instead of keeping your team among the elite in the long term.

i know they weren't in the same draft, but it would be like drafting calbert cheaney instead of kg. cheaney was considered a very good (went something like 6th) college player. kg was an unknown with a trememdous amount of potential (went something like 5th or 6th in his draft). which was a smarter selection?

That is flawed reasoning because while there are exceptions, those are not the norm. For every Kevin Garnett there's a Nbudu Ebi and Nikoloz Tschikitchvili. Another reason why that is flawed is because you're not going to find a talent like Kevin Garnett at #21. It's not going to happen. So the margin for error is smaller.

If Hakim Warrick and Blatche are there at 21, I pick Warrick every time. He's more polished, even if Blatche is "projected" to be a superman in a few years.

 

[fordronken]

but chap, you never have to "rebuild" if you're continually building. if you always take the best player then your team continues to grow. if you start taking less talented players b/c they are more ready they may help you a little in the short term instead of keeping your team among the elite in the long term.

i know they weren't in the same draft, but it would be like drafting calbert cheaney instead of kg. cheaney was considered a very good (went something like 6th) college player. kg was an unknown with a trememdous amount of potential (went something like 5th or 6th in his draft). which was a smarter selection?

It's not like players who are ready now aren't going to get better. These guys aren't 30. Look at Josh Howard, Carlos Boozer, etc. Look at Steve Nash, John Stockton, etc. They're all gonna get better. I suppose thee goal is trying to find who will end up the best, but if one of them is a relative lock to at least be a productive NBA player, it may be a better bet.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's not like players who are ready now aren't going to get better. These guys aren't 30. Look at Josh Howard, Carlos Boozer, etc. Look at Steve Nash, John Stockton, etc. They're all gonna get better. I suppose thee goal is trying to find who will end up the best, but if one of them is a relative lock to at least be a productive NBA player, it may be a better bet.

i guess this is my point, there are no "relative lock to at least be a productive nba player . . . " john wallace stunk in the long run but around the 21st pick he was considered a guy that would be more "nba ready".

maybe a better comparison is this - portland traded jermaine o'neal for dale davis b/c they were competing for a championship. they never won one with that team. and in the end dale didn't make that big of a difference. think portland would reverse that trade now? and that's with ALREADY KNOWING that dale davis could play in the nba, which can't be said of ANYONE drafted, whether they be "experienced" in college or not.

in baseball you trade potential for experience to get through the homestretch. i don't think you do the same in the nba.

as for chaps skita comparison . . . there are always gonna be busts in the draft whether you're drafting on potential or experience. if we were in our current position of championship contention and we had the amare decision to make over again, would you have drafted jared jeffries? he was considered far and away the more nba ready and amare wasn't supposed to develop for YEARS.

 

[Mulli]

Chris Dudley

 

[Cheesebeef]

I guess there is a difference between trolling and boring. Saying the same thing over and over again is not really making an argument. It's just boring.

At one time I had the "white men can't jump" view of basketball, until I saw Bobby Jones play (former PF for the Sixers back in the late 70's and early 80's). He could fly. Does that mean that there aren't more jump athletes who are black than white? No. But does it matter?

Nor can anyone who watched Kevin McHale play ever think that white guys can't play the post. Everyone is an individual and their skills are not defined by the race, but by their talent.

Objectively, more black athletes are successful in basketball than any other team sport. From a marketing standpoint I suspect the owners would like more white guys to succeed. Their audience is mostly white. But winning is much much more important. A GM might have a minimum contract white guy sitting on the end of the bench for show, but not where it counts.

Yet Cheese, you seem to think GM's are idiots who will pick inferior players just because they are white. Or do you? I can't really tell. I lost tract trying to follow your tortured logic to prove what is fundimentally a specious point.

In the end, it is just boring.

thanks for telling me what's boring and what's not on the longest thread we've had in months George.

My "tortured logic" is very simple - in this era if you have a big white American softy playing substanstial minutes at the POWER FORWARD spot (note - NO OTHER SPOT ON THE TEAM AM I MAKING THAT ARGUMENT) you have no hope to be an NBA title contender.

I'm not saying anything about GM's, I'm not saying anything about all that much really except this - I don't want a American White PF on my team getting substantial minutes - that's all.

Call it whatever you want George, but calling the topic of conversation boring is just stupid.

And Chris - apology accepted.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't want a "project" because I think our time is now.

this line of thinking really makes me scratch my head. The time is NOW? If we resign JJ the time is NEXT DECADE people. For the time is now people - FA is the best way to bolster this team with players who you KNOW can make an impact while Nash is still in his prime - but this team isn't just built for NOW it's built for the future as well and THAT is the place the best teams CONTINUE to build for the future. It's where the Spurs take a guy like Parker late in the first round... Beno Udrih and the like. Nash only has 3 great years, left in him, most likely Marion as well - so for NOW - you fill your needs as best you can in FA, not taking the chance that that "experienced" player can come in and possibly just flat out suck - you go potential at this point and continue building a juggernaut for the next 10 years instead of only focussing on the next 5. At least - that's the way I see it.

 

[Chaplin]

as for chaps skita comparison . . . there are always gonna be busts in the draft whether you're drafting on potential or experience. if we were in our current position of championship contention and we had the amare decision to make over again, would you have drafted jared jeffries? he was considered far and away the more nba ready and amare wasn't supposed to develop for YEARS.

But the team's position when we drafted Amare was FAR different than it's position now.

 

[Chaplin]

thanks for telling me what's boring and what's not on the longest thread we've had in months George.

My "tortured logic" is very simple - in this era if you have a big white American softy playing substanstial minutes at the POWER FORWARD spot (note - NO OTHER SPOT ON THE TEAM AM I MAKING THAT ARGUMENT) you have no hope to be an NBA title contender.

I'm not saying anything about GM's, I'm not saying anything about all that much really except this - I don't want a American White PF on my team getting substantial minutes - that's all.

Call it whatever you want George, but calling the topic of conversation boring is just stupid.

And Chris - apology accepted.

Maybe you should think about apologizing yourself, eh? Regardless of what you meant, it's obvious that some people took what you said to be pretty insulting.

 

[Chaplin]

this line of thinking really makes me scratch my head. The time is NOW? If we resign JJ the time is NEXT DECADE people. For the time is now people - FA is the best way to bolster this team with players who you KNOW can make an impact while Nash is still in his prime - but this team isn't just built for NOW it's built for the future as well and THAT is the place the best teams CONTINUE to build for the future. It's where the Spurs take a guy like Parker late in the first round... Beno Udrih and the like. Nash only has 3 great years, left in him, most likely Marion as well - so for NOW - you fill your needs as best you can in FA, not taking the chance that that "experienced" player can come in and possibly just flat out suck - you go potential at this point and continue building a juggernaut for the next 10 years instead of only focussing on the next 5. At least - that's the way I see it.

You, of all people, who have been complaining very loudly about what we need to improve the team, supporting drafting on potential? Maybe you just don't understand the economics of the league, we can't be adding Free Agents all the time, especially if we resign JJ. Adding the next Paul Shirley every year for the next 10 years isn't going to help us.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe you should think about apologizing yourself, eh? Regardless of what you meant, it's obvious that some people took what you said to be pretty insulting.

I already did that Chap - I said my earlier comments were made with my head up my ass and were wrong. You want me too do it again or am I gonna have to call you too coo-coo for coco puffs and have you whine about it being "ridiculously personal"?

 

[Cheesebeef]

You, of all people, who have been complaining very loudly about what we need to improve the team, supporting drafting on potential? Maybe you just don't understand the economics of the league, we can't be adding Free Agents all the time, especially if we resign JJ. Adding the next Paul Shirley every year for the next 10 years isn't going to help us.

Yeah - I don't understand the economics on the league - apparently neither are the other schmucks here then talking about SIGNING SAR OR DONYELL MARSHALL - hell - I believe YOU are one of those schmucks - are you calling yourself an idiot who doesn't understand the economics of the league because we won't be able to sign FAs? I mean we couldn't possibly add FA with the mid-level and veteran's exception? We're barred from using that, huh? Like someone who can't make an argument on their own - you change the other person's. Noweher did I say you use FA "all the time" - but I believe during THIS offseason - yeah - that's the way to go - you accomplish to things at once doing so - you bolster the team for the next couple years for a title run and then, by being able to draft on potential at 21, you bolster the team for the post Nash era of Stoudemire.

This year we should be drafting for the future (unless a guy like Warrick falls to us) - use FA to plug holes as best you can. To do otherwise is selling this future dynasty incredibly short.

 

[Chaplin]

Yeah - I don't understand the economics on the league - apparently neither are the other schmucks here then talking about SIGNING SAR OR DONYELL MARSHALL - hell - I believe YOU are one of those schmucks - are you calling yourself an idiot who doesn't understand the economics of the league because we won't be able to sign FAs? I mean we couldn't possibly add FA with the mid-level and veteran's exception? We're barred from using that, huh? Like someone who can't make an argument on their own - you change the other person's. Noweher did I say you use FA "all the time" - but I believe during THIS offseason - yeah - that's the way to go - you accomplish to things at once doing so - you bolster the team for the next couple years for a title run and then, by being able to draft on potential at 21, you bolster the team for the post Nash era of Stoudemire.

This year we should be drafting for the future (unless a guy like Warrick falls to us) - use FA to plug holes as best you can. To do otherwise is selling this future dynasty incredibly short.

Wow, I can't believe how evil you can be, it's actually quite incredible. I never called you a name, but I'm glad you feel big enough to call everyone else names.

See, now your last paragraph makes a little bit more sense with your conceding of Warrick, or a guy like him, being the way to go if he falls our way. But if Warrick is gone and any guy like him is gone, I wouldn't be adverse to drafting Blatche, I just don't think we should waste this opportunity to bolster the 2005-2006 version of the Phoenix Suns, who will undoubtedly be a title contender.

 

[sunsfn]

I guess there is a difference between trolling and boring. Saying the same thing over and over again is not really making an argument. It's just boring.

At one time I had the "white men can't jump" view of basketball, until I saw Bobby Jones play (former PF for the Sixers back in the late 70's and early 80's). He could fly. Does that mean that there aren't more jump athletes who are black than white? No. But does it matter?

Nor can anyone who watched Kevin McHale play ever think that white guys can't play the post. Everyone is an individual and their skills are not defined by the race, but by their talent.

Objectively, more black athletes are successful in basketball than any other team sport. From a marketing standpoint I suspect the owners would like more white guys to succeed. Their audience is mostly white. But winning is much much more important. A GM might have a minimum contract white guy sitting on the end of the bench for show, but not where it counts.

Yet Cheese, you seem to think GM's are idiots who will pick inferior players just because they are white. Or do you? I can't really tell. I lost tract trying to follow your tortured logic to prove what is fundimentally a specious point.

In the end, it is just boring.

Thanks George for posting this.......
I think you probably have bitten your lip through 11 pages of this thread like I have and finally decided to say something.

Cheesebeef has just gone off on something, not sure what, but I can not imagine that someone (moderator?) has not calmed him down. There have been posts in the past about white stiffs and many people said things such as get that stuff off here, and it did leave. I am not sure why this rant has been allowed to go on.
Cheesebeef seems to be in some kind of mood as well when he posts on other thread lately. Angry about something!

Cheesebeef also seems to be changing his thoughts as he goes along on this thread, but like George said it is hard to follow at times and is really is just plain BORING!!

Would one of the moderators shut down or lock or whatever the hell you do with some posts?
Thanks...........

 

[Joe Mama]

Thanks George for posting this.......
I think you probably have bitten your lip through 11 pages of this thread like I have and finally decided to say something.

Cheesebeef has just gone off on something, not sure what, but I can not imagine that someone (moderator?) has not calmed him down. There have been posts in the past about white stiffs and many people said things such as get that stuff off here, and it did leave. I am not sure why this rant has been allowed to go on.
Cheesebeef seems to be in some kind of mood as well when he posts on other thread lately. Angry about something!

Cheesebeef also seems to be changing his thoughts as he goes along on this thread, but like George said it is hard to follow at times and is really is just plain BORING!!

Would one of the moderators shut down or lock or whatever the hell you do with some posts?
Thanks...........

Cheesebeef and a few others do need to chill with the name calling and rather personal replies to posts. I agree with that. As I'm reading the posts today they seem more heated than yesterday's posts.

That said, I have a question for you and George. If you are so bored with this thread why do you continue to read it? Just ignore it. There's no reason to shut it down for the people who would like to read and participate in it just because you find it tedious and boring. Hell, if I was going to shut down boring threads I certainly wouldn't start with this one.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

Cheesebeef and a few others do need to chill with the name calling and rather personal replies to posts. I agree with that. As I'm reading the posts today they seem more heated than yesterday's posts.

That said, I have a question for you and George. If you are so bored with this thread why do you continue to read it? Just ignore it. There's no reason to shut it down for the people who would like to read and participate in it just because you find it tedious and boring. Hell, if I was going to shut down boring threads I certainly wouldn't start with this one.

Joe

Yeah, you'd have to start with some of the ones you started!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Wow, I can't believe how evil you can be, it's actually quite incredible. I never called you a name, but I'm glad you feel big enough to call everyone else names.

how "evil" I can be? (curling my fingers and twirling my mustache) Are you realy this dense?

YOU are the one who said signing FA wasn't an option when responding to my thought about filling gaps with FA and building for the future with the draft - telling me that I didn't know the "ecomonics of the game" and that the "ecomonics of the game" would prevent us from doing exactly what most people have been talking about (including you - you know signing a guy like Marshall or SAR). Been eating some sugared cereal lately again Chap?

That's okay - eat away in front of your great big TV that you brag about for no apparent reason other than to talk about yourself.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thanks George for posting this.......
I think you probably have bitten your lip through 11 pages of this thread like I have and finally decided to say something.

Cheesebeef has just gone off on something, not sure what, but I can not imagine that someone (moderator?) has not calmed him down. There have been posts in the past about white stiffs and many people said things such as get that stuff off here, and it did leave. I am not sure why this rant has been allowed to go on.
Cheesebeef seems to be in some kind of mood as well when he posts on other thread lately. Angry about something!

Cheesebeef also seems to be changing his thoughts as he goes along on this thread, but like George said it is hard to follow at times and is really is just plain BORING!!

can someone tell me how I've been "changing my thoughts"? I misspoke about when differentiating between White and Euro when I should have been saying American Stiffs and Euros - but where else have I been changing my thoughts?

As far as it being boring - again - if it's boring - after 180 replies and you don't like it - don't read it. It ain't that hard.

 

[Chaplin]

how "evil" I can be? (curling my fingers and twirling my mustache) Are you realy this dense?

YOU are the one who said signing FA wasn't an option when responding to my thought about filling gaps with FA and building for the future with the draft - telling me that I didn't know the "ecomonics of the game" and that the "ecomonics of the game" would prevent us from doing exactly what most people have been talking about (including you - you know signing a guy like Marshall or SAR). Been eating some sugared cereal lately again Chap?

That's okay - eat away in front of your great big TV that you brag about for no apparent reason other than to talk about yourself.

I didn't say you "didn't know the economics of the game", I said that "maybe you didn't", I was trying to get some clarification, which you cleared up somewhat in a later post, which was fine.

Your problem is that you continually push ridiculous notions and have no intention or inclination of actually just understanding another's point of view. Maybe that's because you're just a short white stiff.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Maybe that's because you're just a short white stiff.

finally - some semblance of TRUTH!

Personally - I find the idea that a 6'9 American White guy can be a contibutor on a title contending team to be the ridiculous notion - and considering that NO ONE has still yet been able to bring one up I'd say I was pretty dead on with that assessment, but hey - whatever, apparently we're boring everyone so maybe we should just quit this.

 

[Chaplin]

finally - some semblance of TRUTH!

Personally - I find the notion that a 6'9 American White guy can be a contibutor on a title contending team to be ridiculous - but hey - whatever, apparently we're boring everyone so maybe we should just quit this.

You mean in TODAY'S NBA, right?

But if you think about it, if the Suns are changing today's NBA to become the NBA of the 80s (Showtime), then why wouldn't guys like Tom Chambers or Kevin McHale be successful?

 

[Cheesebeef]

You mean in TODAY'S NBA, right?

But if you think about it, if the Suns are changing today's NBA to become the NBA of the 80s (Showtime), then why wouldn't guys like Tom Chambers or Kevin McHale be successful?

yeah, yeah - TODAY'S NBA. As far as the Suns changing today's NBA and bringing up guys like Chambers (who was as athletically freakish as they come - nomatter what color he was) and McHale - arguably the craftiest PF of all time who was thick as hell - you're talking about abnormalities with those two.

And as long as teams like SA and Detroit keep playing for and winning titles, the NBA ain't gonna change any time soon.

Look - I just don't want to see Duncan dunking on Biff's head repeatedly and Biff getting his shot throw back in his face. Hell - as good as TC was, he always shrunk when he went up against playoff competition and his lack of punch (kind of like Shawn in the playoffs throughout his career) was one of the main reasons we lost in 89 and 90.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

But the team's position when we drafted Amare was FAR different than it's position now.

i said if we were in our current situation and staring the amare or jeffries decision which way would you go? from your logic, you'd have gone jeffries.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Thanks George for posting this.......
I think you probably have bitten your lip through 11 pages of this thread like I have and finally decided to say something.

Cheesebeef has just gone off on something, not sure what, but I can not imagine that someone (moderator?) has not calmed him down. There have been posts in the past about white stiffs and many people said things such as get that stuff off here, and it did leave. I am not sure why this rant has been allowed to go on.
Cheesebeef seems to be in some kind of mood as well when he posts on other thread lately. Angry about something!

Cheesebeef also seems to be changing his thoughts as he goes along on this thread, but like George said it is hard to follow at times and is really is just plain BORING!!

Would one of the moderators shut down or lock or whatever the hell you do with some posts?
Thanks...........

don't lock this thread, it's finally taken a turn towards a good conversation. even cheese has started to address the "potential" verses "experience" debate that's now ongoing.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

how "evil" I can be? (curling my fingers and twirling my mustache) Are you realy this dense?

YOU are the one who said signing FA wasn't an option when responding to my thought about filling gaps with FA and building for the future with the draft - telling me that I didn't know the "ecomonics of the game" and that the "ecomonics of the game" would prevent us from doing exactly what most people have been talking about (including you - you know signing a guy like Marshall or SAR). Been eating some sugared cereal lately again Chap?

That's okay - eat away in front of your great big TV that you brag about for no apparent reason other than to talk about yourself.

you need to get outta the house.

 

[Chaplin]

i said if we were in our current situation and staring the amare or jeffries decision which way would you go? from your logic, you'd have gone jeffries.

No, that is not correct. In a "rebuilding" mode, the project big man is a no-brainer. I didn't think Jeffries was that great to begin with, certainly not as good as Aldridge made him out to be.

But we are NOT "rebuilding". Draft decisions are dependent on the current makeup of the team. The team when we drafted Amare was vastly different than the team now.