Here's your Suns first round pick in 2005 draft...

[Cheesebeef]

You are very lucky I am not a moderator on this forum or you would be taking a break for blatant trolling.

actually it's not blatant trolling - it's what I believe - but at the same time I knew writing it was gonna start a firestorm. Just because I have a rather controversial conversation doesn't mean it's trolling Chris - and since you're not a moderator here - why don't you shut your damn mouth!

and you guys are right - I had a John Kerry moment - I misspoke about "the white guy"/race thing but if you notice throughout my argument that I WAS differentiating between Euros/Asians and the like from Gold Ole' American White Stiffs - drawing distinctions between guys like Krstic, Ilguskas, Vlade and worthless peices of trash like Raef, KVH and the like - especially on Title Contending teams.

As far as the other ridiculous comment about how many PFs have LED their team to a title - well - Duncan for one - but considering my argument was that in the last 15 years a big white stiff hasn't even PLAYED on a title contender, what exactly was your point?

 

[Cheesebeef]

To recap:

- Cheese hates White bigs.
- Cheese hasn't seen David Lee play a lick of ball.
- Cheese hopes the Suns don't draft a White big.
- Cheese would probably love to have Chris Taft.
- Chris Taft is a Black big.
- Chris Taft is going to be a Black bust.
- Cheese would like to lick a Black big.

Chris Taft is a worthless piece of garbage also - I wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole or your lips sly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

cheesebeef is incredibly wrong and we are all incredibly right.

So big white American stiffs ARE contributors on title contending teams in this era of basketball? You know, I'm still waiting for ONE - just ONE example of a White Stiff who made a contribution to a title contending team in the last 15 years. (TC - who was as soft as they come doens't even count because the guy was an admitted athletic FREAK).

 

[Joe Mama]

You are very lucky I am not a moderator on this forum or you would be taking a break for blatant trolling.

We are all lucky you aren't moderator of this forum. Stupid and bigoted... yes. Trolling... no.

none of them were straight out of high school. you missed the rest of my post to cheese. he ksept saying not draft this guy because no one in the past 15 years that has won a title has had a white center. i just pointing out that the same thing could be said about pf/c taken directly from high school.

Ah, I did miss that part of the question. Sorry.

Joe Mama

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

You are very lucky I am not a moderator on this forum or you would be taking a break for blatant trolling.

I dont see what the problem is. No one has seemed very upset about it, in fact - most people are getting into the conversation. Who cares if it is controversial? Are we not allowed to talk about things everyone might not agree with?

The way I see it, moderating is about protecting the group consensus. From what I can tell, the group consensus is to participate in this thread without getting out of control.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Trolling: As used on the Internet: 1) As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar bait.

Cheese, there is a difference between stating your opinion and stating your opinion with the express purpose of ticking people off or starting an internet fight.

 

[PhxGametime]

Keith Van Horn lead the Nets to a Conference Title a few years and in the NBA Finals (we all know it wasn't Kidd) - with the help of others though .

Dirk Nowitzki lead Mavs team to Conference Finals...

Tom Gugliotta lead the Phoenix Suns to the NBA Playoffs...

Christian Laettner lead the Duke Blue Devils - I think I'm going in opposite direction.


These are just a few players, that I wouldn't their production at #21 though...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, there is a difference between stating your opinion and stating your opinion with the express purpose of ticking people off or starting an internet fight.

you're right - but I wasn't expressing that opinion IN ORDER TO piss people off - I was expressing it because I atcually will vomit if we draft another Big White Stiff - just the fact that I knew it would piss people off shouldn't keep me from saying it. Hell - I know saying Shawn Marion is soft will piss Chaplin off, but I believe that too - or is that also considered "trolling".

Think whatever you want Chris - but you're wrong here on my intent.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese, there is a difference between stating your opinion and stating your opinion with the express purpose of ticking people off or starting an internet fight.

honestly Chris - suggesting that I was actively trolling here is about ludicrous as my head up my ass statement that Europeans aren't white.

Trolling is a pretty heavy charge on a message board and considering you're the only one who looks at it that way, maybe you might want to reconsider (like I did with my earlier comments).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You are very lucky I am not a moderator on this forum or you would be taking a break for blatant trolling.

notwithstanding the fact that i think my brother's an idiot in the way he goes about making his argument here, i think that's a stupid response. it ended up begetting a ton of debate. not all of it intelligent, mind you, but they were talking basketball and trying to find examples to refute one and other. it was a lively debate. just b/c it was about race doesn't mean it's not worth talking about. nothing was offensive. you're being too pc.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Cheese, there is a difference between stating your opinion and stating your opinion with the express purpose of ticking people off or starting an internet fight.

i don't think he was trying to start a fight. he stated his opinion and realized it would touch off a lot of debate. debating and fighting might be part of the same family, but they are not the same creature.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i don't think he was trying to start a fight. he stated his opinion and realized it would touch off a lot of debate. debating and fighting might be part of the same family, but they are not the same creature.

you know - it really doesn't help matters when siblings try to stand up for this. Joe Mama and Graham pretty much laid out that Chris was wrong - no need for big bro to pile on as well.

Did you really flee from your house tonight becxause of Tsunami warnings?

 

[George O'Brien]

I guess there is a difference between trolling and boring. Saying the same thing over and over again is not really making an argument. It's just boring.

At one time I had the "white men can't jump" view of basketball, until I saw Bobby Jones play (former PF for the Sixers back in the late 70's and early 80's). He could fly. Does that mean that there aren't more jump athletes who are black than white? No. But does it matter?

Nor can anyone who watched Kevin McHale play ever think that white guys can't play the post. Everyone is an individual and their skills are not defined by the race, but by their talent.

Objectively, more black athletes are successful in basketball than any other team sport. From a marketing standpoint I suspect the owners would like more white guys to succeed. Their audience is mostly white. But winning is much much more important. A GM might have a minimum contract white guy sitting on the end of the bench for show, but not where it counts.

Yet Cheese, you seem to think GM's are idiots who will pick inferior players just because they are white. Or do you? I can't really tell. I lost tract trying to follow your tortured logic to prove what is fundimentally a specious point.

In the end, it is just boring.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Yet Cheese, you seem to think GM's are idiots who will pick inferior players just because they are white. Or do you? I can't really tell. I lost tract trying to follow your tortured logic to prove what is fundimentally a specious point.

I think there are certainly a few markets, phoenix being one of them, where this happens now and again. It is a subconscious thing I am sure - but it still does happen.

 

[George O'Brien]

I think there are certainly a few markets, phoenix being one of them, where this happens now and again. It is a subconscious thing I am sure - but it still does happen.

There was a fair amount of logic that went into the Suns three white draft picks. The fact that they failed doesn't change that.

Big Jake - As long as Shaq was in the West, which seemed likely to be for ever, it seemed necessary to have someone big enough to battle him in the post. Jake was actually pretty good at that. Unfortunately, that was about all he could do. In any case, when he got injured in his second season, it seemed like his mobility went from slow to glacial. BTW, Jahidi was obtained for exactly the same reason with roughly the same results. No one big enough to stop Shaq was quick enough to do much else.

Casey - At the time the Suns were a terrible shooting team. Casey was great college shooter and was pictured as a Steve Kerr type guy off the bench. Unfortuntely, Casey's outside shooting in college did not translate in the NBA. If he had been the kind of shooter projected, he'd still be on the Suns. So while getting a shooter seemed like a priority at the time, Prince was viewed as simply another Marion. It was a mistake, but it made sense for the team they had at the time.

Zarko - Zarko might actually become another Dirk type player if he stayed healthy. Dirk bulked up quite a bit from when he first came to the NBA and Zarko would need to do the same thing. However, Zarko wore out his welcome in Phoenix last summer when he defied the team's wishes and tried to get on the SM Olympic team rather than play in the summer leagues. White or not, the Suns as an organization wants guys who are 100% focused on winning and they concluded Zarko wasn't. I suspect they were premature, but they certainly did not let race limit dumping him.

Whatever else you might say, the Suns showned no sentiment in dumping Zarko, Vroman, Lampe and Casey for veteran players.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think there are certainly a few markets, phoenix being one of them, where this happens now and again. It is a subconscious thing I am sure - but it still does happen.

Wow, I just picked another team that I thought would be inclined to take white players - I can't believe what I found.

If I didn't miss something, the Utah Jazz have selected five black players in the first round since 1990 out of 14 first round picks.

That is an incredible number considering that about 78% of the players in the league are black.

Kirk Snyder in 2004
Deshawn Stevenson in 2000
Quincy Lewis in 1999
Jacque Vaughn in 1997
Luther Wright in 1993

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Whatever else you might say, the Suns showned no sentiment in dumping Zarko, Vroman, Lampe and Casey for veteran players.

I hold nothing against the picks, in fact I think the Suns draft well. However, I do think that when a white player works out well - he gets more attention than if an identical black player had an identical work out.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My problem isn't with what Cheese was saying, it was how he appeared to be just looking to argue. It isn't like you haven't admitted you do this in the past Cheese. If you weren't just looking to pick an internet fight, then my apologies.

As far as our draft pick, I could care less what color they are, as long as they can contribute next year. I don't want a "project" because I think our time is now.

 

[goldseraph]

I think Lee is a bit of a reach at 20, but he could be a quality player. He
has all the physical abilities and tools, but he never seemed to consistently
dominate at UF. He is certainly not a 'stiff' - the guy can jump and throw down hammer dunks with ease. He has skills and in the right system he
could be a valuable player with 4 years of college experience. We are very unlikely to get any sort of 'star' player at #20 - we also are not going to get the defensive terror big-man you all are dreaming of. Lee wouldn't be a bad choice for the Suns system at all - he can run, pass, and is experienced. Let's please not draft a 19 year old.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think Lee could contribute, but I have to admit I would be more excited if the Phoenix Suns took someone like Blatche with more potential. If they are going to take an experienced player I would rather have Simeon. Of course that's assuming either of them is available at #21.

Joe Mama

 

[Mulli]

Rik Smits

Detlef Schrempf

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think Lee could contribute, but I have to admit I would be more excited if the Phoenix Suns took someone like Blatche with more potential. If they are going to take an experienced player I would rather have Simeon. Of course that's assuming either of them is available at #21.

Joe Mama

i completely agree. never draft "experience" over "potential." you have to try to grab the best potential player available. because at this stage, they are ALL just potential. no one knows how an "experienced" college ballplayer will translate over to the pros any more than a highschooler. you have to try to get the best player available whether it takes one year or 3 to develop.

i also like blatche and simeon.

 

[Chaplin]

I like Blatche as well, but I don't think drafting for "upside" is the right move here. We need someone to compliment the team NOW. And if we don't resign JJ, that becomes even MORE important to do.

We're not rebuilding anymore, there's no reason to pick a project.

 

[Joe Mama]

I actually agree with both of you (Chaplin and Ouchie). I like the idea of drafting somebody who showed that they are a winner and productive on the collegiate level. David Lee did not do that though. He underperformed. I think you have to find a balance of upside and experience.

Joe

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I like Blatche as well, but I don't think drafting for "upside" is the right move here. We need someone to compliment the team NOW. And if we don't resign JJ, that becomes even MORE important to do.

We're not rebuilding anymore, there's no reason to pick a project.

but chap, you never have to "rebuild" if you're continually building. if you always take the best player then your team continues to grow. if you start taking less talented players b/c they are more ready they may help you a little in the short term instead of keeping your team among the elite in the long term.

i know they weren't in the same draft, but it would be like drafting calbert cheaney instead of kg. cheaney was considered a very good (went something like 6th) college player. kg was an unknown with a trememdous amount of potential (went something like 5th or 6th in his draft). which was a smarter selection?