How Would You Try To Beat The Suns?

[George O'Brien]

One thing about success, people start spending a lot more time trying to figure out how to beat you.

Two years ago the Suns had a lot of success at the end of the season. They got into the playoffs and gave the Spurs a tough series. But the following season, the stuff that worked before stopped working.

Some of it was poor shooting, but a lot of it came from the fact that people spent time trying to figure out how to beat the Suns. The result was that everyone packed the paint and wait for the Suns to brick their long range shots.

Teams still want to do this, but are finding that it doesn't work as well. Leaving the Suns wing guys open to stop Amare and guys driving the basket has left the Suns shooters wide open. They have been leaving guys open who are only .003% from being the top three point shooting team in the NBA.

So now what? The Suns are quick enough that if teams try to chase everyone, it will leave the inside open for Amare to dominate and for the other Suns to drive the basket. We've seen the Suns become more aggressive at driving the bakset in recent games, which may reflect shifts in defensive strategies.

The trick to beating Suns on the other end of the court has been to pound the ball into the low post and hope to get Amare into foul trouble. Hunter has proven useful in countering this, but mostly the Suns simply wear most big guys out by running all the time.

The other strategy is to hit outside shots. The Suns play and inside out defense, so teams that pass the ball and shoot well from the outside generally can score. However, many players become less effective shooters when their legs get tired, so relying on outside shooting is dangerous against the running Suns.

Going into a slow down style looks like it should work, but the Suns have improved their defense to the point that slow down tactics seem to backfire by making the Suns defense seem all the more effective.

Running with the Suns seems to work for a while, but even high speed teams have a hard time keeping up.

Crashing the offensive boards gets points, but does not win games against the Suns.

The best strategy for beating the Suns is when the Suns have played a lot of games, the refs that don't call fouls, hit a lot of very difficult shots, it is a game when the Suns shooters aren't hitting open shots, and to have Kevin Garnett.

It's not an easy strategy to implement.

 

[arthurracoon]

 

[reader]

After reading your comments, I am not sure if this has any validity, but here goes.

In most pregame shows where the announcers are from the opposing team, the most common point to controlling the game is, "Stop - Steve - Nash". If you stop Nash, the offense slows and allows for the other team to make their run. This did not happen in the Cleveland game at home, where he was in foul trouble and Leo came in and played really well. Playing in LA at the Clipper game and even at the Laker game, when he was on the bench both teams made their runs. In the Clipper game when he entered the game again the Clippers were put away for good. At the Lakers, within about 5 minutes they erased a 13 point deficit and won by 3. If Nash is contained or in foul trouble the opposition stands a better chance of winning. Of course the same statement could probably be made for any of the 5 starters, at Cleveland, Amare was in foul trouble, ened up fouling out and Cleveland had a comeback win.

 

[playstation]

beating the suns starts with getting amare in foul trouble.

subsequently, you need to put enough pressure on the long-range shooters so that they don't have many open shots, thus taking away the long game and the short game. that won't stop the suns, but that should slow them down enough to lose, since they're not great defenders.

this requires 1-great perimeter defenders, and 2-a post presence that can draw fouls. to me, that's the only repeatable strategy that could work, and only a few teams could consistently employ it successfully:

minnesota
san antonio
detroit
miami
indiana (when healthy)

i think other teams more or less hope amare gets in foul trouble (and recently its been happening) and then try their best to guard the perimeter. usually they fail.

if amare ever lowers his fouls per game number to around 3 or so (and stays out of trouble early), the suns could conceivably have no weakness offensively.

 

[PhxGametime]

Smallball?

 

[RJ May]

It all starts with Nash. If you allow him to penetrate and dish he will absolutely kill you.

 

[sunsfn]

Stop Amare and/or Nash.

It appears that Amare is not playing defense many times, but I am not sure the coaches have told him to be careful and not get into foul trouble. He lets someone make a layup or does not try to get blocks just to stay out of foul trouble. The suns can win if he is not in foul trouble and in the game, but will have a hard time winning if he is on the bench for long periods. The outside shots need to be falling if Amare is out for a long time.

Nash is just incredible and showed this in the Denver game with his drives to the basket the last 3 times down court.

If Nash gets in foul trouble Barbosa needs to pick up the scoring because he is not a great assist man yet. Barbosa is improving and can certainly pass big time, but has not figured out when to always do that yet.

 

[Joe Mama]

I think that he is to keep sending your big men down into the low post against Shawn Marion and Amare Stoudemire. One problem both of them have is that they frequently give up good position close to the basket. And that player has to go strong to the basket quickly. They will either be scoring were getting fouled.

I would also send my guards running back on defense every single time whether my team had just missed a shot or scored.

Of course if the three swingman are making their outside shots I'm not sure the above suggestions would be enough.

Joe Mama

 

[Kolo]

Stop them from running, plain and simple.

On defense: Even thought the Suns are not a great rebounding team, don't crash the offensive boards, at least not too aggresively. Get back on defense at all costs, and don't apply half court pressure. Put muscle on Amare and the Matrix in the post. Lay off Amare on pick-and-rolls and put his new shooting touch to the test.

On offense: Walk the ball up, milk the clock, throw the ball in the post and go straight at Amare, try to rough him up, try to get in his head.

Sounds like what the Spurs are built for.

 

[elindholm]

On defense: Even thought the Suns are not a great rebounding team, don't crash the offensive boards, at least not too aggresively. Get back on defense at all costs, and don't apply half court pressure. Put muscle on Amare and the Matrix in the post. Lay off Amare on pick-and-rolls and put his new shooting touch to the test.

I agree with this. It is tempting to go after offensive rebounds because the Suns give up so many of them, but the tradeoff is that it ignites the Suns' break. Get back quickly and set up a zone. The Suns are better against a zone than they used to be, but they still struggle with it. If the Suns get hot from the outside for a bit, then change gears and crash the offensive boards for a while. As soon as the Suns start gambling on their running game again, go back into the zone.

On offense, pretty much what everyone else said. Force the ball inside and send cutters to the basket, since the Suns double-team indiscriminately and aren't very alert to movement away from the ball. And don't turn the ball over. Be patient and methodical with every possession.

 

[Chaplin]

On defense: Even thought the Suns are not a great rebounding team, don't crash the offensive boards, at least not too aggresively. Get back on defense at all costs, and don't apply half court pressure. Put muscle on Amare and the Matrix in the post. Lay off Amare on pick-and-rolls and put his new shooting touch to the test.

I agree with this. It is tempting to go after offensive rebounds because the Suns give up so many of them, but the tradeoff is that it ignites the Suns' break. Get back quickly and set up a zone. The Suns are better against a zone than they used to be, but they still struggle with it. If the Suns get hot from the outside for a bit, then change gears and crash the offensive boards for a while. As soon as the Suns start gambling on their running game again, go back into the zone.

But where is the tradeoff? We are the best shooting team in the league, after all--so that strategy has been instituted against any team since peach baskets were used--the trick is to beat it, and statistically, we've proven we can.

 

[George O'Brien]

This thread went better than I had hoped. Great comments.

Hopefully none of the Suns ooponents are reading this.

 

[elindholm]

But where is the tradeoff? We are the best shooting team in the league, after all--so that strategy has been instituted against any team since peach baskets were used--the trick is to beat it, and statistically, we've proven we can.

Huh? The Suns are "the best shooting team in the league" because they take so many layups. Force them into a zone, and their shooting percentage goes way down.

The Suns have shown that they are extremely tough to beat in a running game. So, to have a better chance of beating them, slow the game way down.

 

[Kolo]

This thread went better than I had hoped. Great comments.

Hopefully none of the Suns ooponents are reading this.

Yeah, George, good thread. It's nice to have to think hard to figure out how to beat your own team. It'd be a different story if we were Golden State fans.

And like I said above, the Spurs seem naturally to fit most of the solutions we've come up with for beating the Suns--slow ball, large ball, methodic ball, Duncan ball, whatever you want to call it. I'm definitely looking forward to that first Spurs game.

 

[SweetD]

I would also have to add the Heat to the list of teams that are built to beat the Suns. Wade might be able to stay with Nash and Shaq will kill Amare in the post. I just hope we don't see them in the Finals.

 

[scotsman13]

i think that the answer to be effective against the suns is more then getting in the half court and slowing it down. for me i would go by a couple things.

first, get the ball out of nash's hands. trap and press full court. heck i would double team nash on the inbound. force the ball out of nash's hands.

next on every made shot i want one of my players there to hit the ball out of bounds. this will stop the suns from running it up so quick after a made shot.

once the ball game is in the half court i work on playing the passing lanes and trying to for steals. i want to make sure that i am keep the lane packed with defenders. the suns work to focus inside out. keep nashs lines of sight closed dont lets him see others players. on the pick and roll i would have a 3rd player watching ready to double whereever the ball goes.

on offense in the half court i am going to be going after Q in the blocks. he has the strenght to make posting up harder but but his size will give me some big advanages.

focus on getting into pcik and rolls on the high post with the center/power forward (whoever is guarding amare).

 

[elindholm]

once the ball game is in the half court i work on playing the passing lanes and trying to for steals.

My guess is that the Suns would pick apart a gambling, go-for-steals defensive approach.

 

[SUTTILL]

Trying to stop Nash or Stoudemire creates a dillema.

1. Unless you have a great one on one defender that can handle Nash, bringing 2 players will leave someone open that Nash will find.

2. Stoudemire is too quick for most doubleteams and has started finding the 3 point shooters on the perimeter.

I guess you have to try anyway and hope the other shooters miss.

Trying to slow the game down doesn't work either. Our guys may be small, but they are quicker to the ball than most teams. They will get some boards and run on you. They will even run after made baskets. Also, we get open shots due to our passing even in a half court game.

 

[Gaddabout]

Of all the teams the Suns might face in the playoffs, Minnesota scares me the most because they have perimiter defenders who can slow down dribble penetration. Whatever a team chooses, I think a team that wants to beat the Suns has to man up on Nash. It's surprisingly difficult because he's ALWAYS moving.

Anyone that can rebound and shoot high percentages in the half court are going to be potential trouble for the Suns. As we've seen, though, those kinds of teams can't rebound with the intensity the Suns will run. Maybe they can control the boards for a quarter and a half, but you can't keep the Suns from easy scoring opportunities for four quarters.

Earlier in the season I worried about how the Suns would look in a 7-game series. Now I'm beginning to think a longer series will favor the Suns. Whose legs are going to be wobbly in a sixth game?

I think we'll start to see better defensive efforts against the Suns come January. That's when teams start to employ meaner tactics. Nash will get thrown around in the lane. JJ's going to get pushed. All I can say is they need to focus on hitting their foul shots, because it could determine how the team fares the next three months.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Put a goon on Amare and hack him to death. If he gets a few calls to go against him, he tends to shut down.

Post up Steve Nash, again, if you can get Nash in a little bit of foul trouble he cannot be as aggressive.

Run your offense efficiently and with high percentage shots. Every missed shot has the potential to be a Suns fast break. You've got to score in the paint. It will do two things, it keeps the Suns from running and it has the potential to get the Suns big men in foul trouble.

Have a plan for the beginning of the 4th when the Suns typically start to run away with the game. You've got to have quality, fresh legs at that point. If you do not sub effectively early in the game, you'll lose it in the 4th against the Suns.

 

[frdbtr]

I think what we are seeing out of the suns is an 80's style team. The current rosters and coaching phylosophies of walk up the court and shoot a 3 pointer will not work against a high scoring offense where 5 guys on the court can score at any given time. I have always believed that even the championship teams of the recent past would never have been able to compete with even some of the second tiered teams of the 80's. I know a lot of you will question the athletecism of teams of yesteryear can't be compated with today's athletes (anyone heard of ShaQ) but I would counter that if the lakers of the 80's had played the championship Laker teams of the 00's The 80's laker teams would have run the last bunch right off of the court. Kareem would have made mince meat of Shaq even though shaq would get his points as well. Anyway to make a long story short. This suns team is Deep, they just choose to play thier best players as the starting 5 instead of trying to bring some of it off of the bench for scoring punch. I think that it is genius becuase what invariably happens is teams start wondering how they are going to compete with this team before the game even starts. It usually gets them really excited to start the game and when the first quarter is up, you have just played your best basketball, and the Suns are either only a couple points down, or up by a few, you wonder what it will take to beat them. Anyone remember Jerry sloans comments "this team destroys your will to win". I love it!! Go Suns.

 

[SirStefan32]

Suns are a tough team to beat.

If I were coaching another team, there are several things I'd try to do.

1. As Eric pointed out, the Suns struggle against any type of zone defense. While they are better than they used to be, they still struggle, and if I were coaching their oponents, I'd be in some type of zone all night.

2. Pound the ball inside and dribble penetrate. Attack Nash by dribble penetration and have your big guys post up Stoudemire and Marion. Marion will get killed by anybody over 6'9 and 240lb, and Stoudemire will likely get in foul trouble.

3. Make it a half court set game. It's easier said than done, of course, but by taking good shots and getting back on D, it could be done.

Having said all that, if you don't have enough fire power to score 105 points, you're pretty much screwed regardless of what strategy or tactics you use.

Stefan

 

[Chaplin]

So here's the question:

How can a team that can't do very well against a zone be first in the league in field goal percentage?

Is it because the other teams don't play zone? Why would that be? If a casual fan notices that we're "not that good" against a zone, why don't other teams use it?

Is it because we get a majority of our points in the paint? With our center situation, I don't see that as a determining factor.

So we have Suns fans saying we don't handle the zone very well, but with little or no evidence to support such a claim, because all the evidence you can find is actually to the contrary.

But really, this season it hardly seems to matter if the other team uses a zone since we've done a terrific job breaking it--in fact, if statistics show anything, it's that we're one of the better teams at breaking it, which essentially means we have been shooting well, i.e. leading the league in field goal percentage.

 

[Suns_fan69]

The suns aren't very good against the zone, but they're great at getting down the court before the zone can get set up. It's pretty tough to get into a Zone defense against the suns because of their speed. I think that's the main reason why teams don't use it more often.

I know in college ball you don't have to send all your guys to line up for the free throw if you don't want. Are you not allowed to do that in the NBA? If I were facing the suns I would have all my guys back except for the guy taking the FT. It's a 10% chance we'd get the rebound on a roughly 25 % chance of a missed FT, versus a 70% chance that they'll run it down our throats whether the FT was made or missed.

 

[elindholm]

How can a team that can't do very well against a zone be first in the league in field goal percentage?

Because the Suns are first or second in the league in fast-break points. Field-goal percentage takes into account all shots taken, not just ones from the halfcourt set.

Is it because the other teams don't play zone? Why would that be?

Because (a) most coaches don't like zones, and therefore most teams don't practice them much -- even last year, when the Suns were terrible against zones, they didn't face them much -- and (b) because opponents are going for offensive rebounds instead, a strategy that appears to pay off.

If a casual fan notices that we're "not that good" against a zone, why don't other teams use it?

Many coaches are philosophically opposed to zone defenses. Think of power hitters who refuse to drop down bunts, even though (with a little practice) they'd be almost assured of reaching first base safely. It's an ego thing.

That, and the allure of offensive rebounds. On the face of it, it seems like a good strategy to crash the offensive boards, make the Suns pay for their small size, and get more attempts out of each possession. That's what pretty much every opponent has been doing. However, since it has worked only 3 out of 25 times this season, my guess is that pretty soon Suns opponents are going to try something else.

Is it because we get a majority of our points in the paint? With our center situation, I don't see that as a determining factor.

The Suns are, in fact, well above average in points in the paint, but that might be because fast-break points are counted (I don't know).

So we have Suns fans saying we don't handle the zone very well, but with little or no evidence to support such a claim, because all the evidence you can find is actually to the contrary.

It's pretty obvious if you watch the games. How do the Suns score more easily -- in a wild, up-and-down sprint, or when the other team is already dug in and switching everything?

in fact, if statistics show anything, it's that we're one of the better teams at breaking it, which essentially means we have been shooting well, i.e. leading the league in field goal percentage.

Statistics show plenty, but they certainly don't show that the Suns do particularly well against zone defenses.