Is JJ THE MAN?

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by elindholm
over marbury's time here how many times did he come down the court and fire up a 3 pointer with no chance of anyone on the team getting a rebound.

Well of course. But is that selfishness or bad judgement? And what does it have to do with Bryant?

I think he is trying to make a comparison between how Marbury dominated the ball and how Kobe dominates the ball. Trying to say that the offense runs better when you don't have one person that tries to dominate the ball. I liked Marbury, I think that he tried really hard to win games for the Suns but I also think that he gave up on the offense way too much and then tried to create on his own. this caused everyone else to stand around and not participate in the offense.

Now everyone moves and gets involved and the offense runs better. Now all we need is for Amare to get back so that we can play better defense.

 

[schutd]

How did this thread get hijacked by the get Kobe argument?

Shouldnt it be about JJ and how freaking awesome he's been since the trade?

There are and/or have been plenty of arguably top 5 players in the league who dont and most likely never will get a ring.

I understand the notion of going after a top 5 player if you can get him, but it doesnt assure us of anything, and it completely undermines the controbutions JJ makes to this team, and he does it without one friggin lick of controversy. he just shows up and plays.

I think Ill take that.

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by schutd
How did this thread get hijacked by the get Kobe argument?

Every thread turns into the "get Kobe" argument "D'antoni is a great coach"

Reply: "Yeah but if we had Kobe he would be a better coach" It is a never ending cycle and we will probably have to deal with it until he decides to not opt out of his contract this year.

Originally posted by schutd
Shouldnt it be about JJ and how freaking awesome he's been since the trade?

There are and/or have been plenty of arguably top 5 players in the league who dont and most likely never will get a ring.

I understand the notion of going after a top 5 player if you can get him, but it doesnt assure us of anything, and it completely undermines the controbutions JJ makes to this team, and he does it without one friggin lick of controversy. he just shows up and plays.

I think Ill take that.

I agree 100%

 

[King A]

it was me, see page 1 of this thread

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Every thread turns into the "get Kobe" argument "D'antoni is a great coach"

Reply: "Yeah but if we had Kobe he would be a better coach" It is a never ending cycle and we will probably have to deal with it until he decides to not opt out of his contract this year.

Please. Nobody has attributed the possibility of Kobe Bryant here having anything to do with whether D'Antoni would be a better coach.

I wish, when discussing this matter, people stuck to what those of us that support it actually say.

And I will once again say that a JJ/Kobe backcourt would easily be the best backcourt in the league.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Please. Nobody has attributed the possibility of Kobe Bryant here having anything to do with whether D'Antoni would be a better coach.

I wish, when discussing this matter, people stuck to what those of us that support it actually say.

And I will once again say that a JJ/Kobe backcourt would easily be the best backcourt in the league.

Can anybody say Backcourt 2004?

I still don't believe the Phoenix Suns will have the cap room to sign Kobe Bryant unless they forget about or trade Vujanic and trade away all of their draft picks. It's going to take a contract starting at $14-16 million to get him. I also don't believe the Phoenix Suns will want to spend their entire salary cap on four players which is what will happen when Amare Stoudemire gets his extension. Assuming he gets the maximum they will have around $50 million per season tied up in those four players.

I think if the Phoenix Suns were to sign Kobe Bryant this summer they would have to trade Shawn Marion or Joe Johnson. The money would be a problem, but also their would just not be enough shots to go around. Even with Kobe Bryant, JJ, and Amare Stoudemire someone would probably end up complaining about not getting enough shots.

Within the last several weeks I've probably said several times that Kobe Bryant is a top-five player. However he has never really proven himself without Shaquille O'Neal. Even with Shaq I would say he is probably #5. I don't know where I'm going with that.

Joe Mama

 

[cly2tw]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Most people are content at comparing ROLES, rather than talent. And in the case of our team, I think that's the wrong way to go about it.

Exactly. Suns fans often compare Marion to Pippen, because they both take the roles of a complementary player. But they have completely different set of talents. Pippen can be a go-to guy anytime he is asked to, as shown in the MJ-less year in Chicago. Marion lacks this talent completely.

In a way, JJ is more likely better suited for a Pippen role on a championship team, since they share similar talents. Pippen lead Chicago to 2nd round in playoffs and proved he could perform under pressure. But JJ? so, he gotta prove he could be on the same level with Pippen first. The slogan "we have JJ and/or Marion, we don't need Kobe, the money be better spent on a center" is naive.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

JJ and Kobe in the backcourt would be ridiculous. 2 bigger guards, both able to intiate the offense and get off their own shot.

Joe, about the tying up the cap into 4 players, that really isn't so bad. The reason being, none of those 4 players are bad. None are a considered a horrible contract by NBA standards. After you have your 4 main players set up, you can use your MLE to sign some role players. Also, the suns are in a different situation than most teams.

They have 3 first round draft picks that should have favorable position in the next couple of years, plus their own picks each year (minus the SA protected one). They have a glut of young talent, locked into rookie contracts since we have had so many picks the last 2 years, then got 2 more prospects from NY. We will not have to be under the cap to resign most of our role players.

My point is, even if all the players make small improvements over the next 5 years (not likely as a group, they should improve a lot).

Is a bench of

Casey
Zarko
Leandro
Vujanic
Lampe

that bad when it is backing up Kobe/Amare/JJ/Marion??? I would say not bad at all. Plus add in some of our picks in the next 2 years.

Last point, which I have stated again and again (and I think only Chap listens to) is that while we will have a hard time resigning ALL of our young talent, we will continue to replace them as time goes on. So while our cap may be occupied by 4 players, I think that the Cs will pay an extra 15-20 million on top of that if they are winning a lot.

 

[cly2tw]

Pippen was a point-forward next to Jordan and had the ball in his hand a lot of times. If Pippen-MJ could coexist well to win 3 championships, why couldn't Kobe and JJ?

 

[cly2tw]

BTW, how talented was Ron Harper back then with the Clippers before he joined Bulls? Comparable to what JJ showed here?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
I still don't believe the Phoenix Suns will have the cap room to sign Kobe Bryant unless they forget about or trade Vujanic and trade away all of their draft picks. It's going to take a contract starting at $14-16 million to get him.
Joe Mama

This was a point I tried to make a few weeks ago. At this point, the Suns are projected to have $33.8 million in committed contracts. Assuming the Suns draft picks are at #7 ($1.95 million) and #15 ($1.2 million), plus $2 million for Vujanic (equal to what is getting now); this puts the Suns at $38.95 million. Assuming they unload White at $5.9 million, that brings the total down to $33 million. If the Salary Cap is at $45 million, this leaves only $12 million.

BTW, trading up for the first or second pick doesn't really help much. The #1 pick gets $3.3 million and #2 gets $2.9 million.

To make the math work, the only way the Suns get even close to Kobe's currently scheduled $14.6 million is by not signing Vujanic, trading away at least one draft pick, and unloading White.

My recurring concern is that the only centers would be Voskuhl and Lampe plus someone for the veteran minimum. In future years, the Suns would have no ability to go after a center through free agency for more than mid cap. Next season, if the Suns cannot replace White, they could give "small ball" a new meaning.

As it is, the concern about re-signing players like JJ, Amare, etc. are mostly an issue that a ballooning salary structure would preclude even using the mid cap. This means that to sign Kobe, the Suns have to pray that Lampe or one of their draft picks (that were not traded away) would become a solid big man.

The option of getting rid of Marion has been discussed on this board to death. The big problem is that there only a few teams that have the cap space to take him, even if he was given away free: Utah, Denver, and the Clippers. All of them have guys at SF they like and have much bigger needs.

Having Kobe on the Suns would be real nice, but the cost of clearing enough cap space seems awfully high to me. The likelyhood that it would actually work seems terribly low.

 

[cly2tw]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/ron_harper/

These are stats for Ron Harper before he joined the Bulls. Can anybody tell me that JJ proved to be better than him already? And Harper was the 3rd option only, on the MJ-Pippen team.



86-87 CLE 82 82 37.4 .455 .213 .684 2.10 2.70 4.80 4.8 2.55 1.02 4.21 3.00 22.9
87-88 CLE 57 52 32.1 .464 .150 .705 1.10 2.80 3.90 4.9 2.14 .91 2.77 2.80 15.4
88-89 CLE 82 82 34.8 .511 .250 .751 1.50 3.50 5.00 5.3 2.26 .90 2.80 2.70 18.6
89-90 LAC 28 28 39.5 .481 .283 .795 2.00 3.70 5.60 4.8 2.39 1.14 2.93 2.90 23.0
89-90 CLE 7 7 37.4 .442 .200 .756 2.70 4.10 6.90 7.0 2.00 1.29 2.57 3.60 22.0
90-91 LAC 39 34 35.5 .391 .324 .668 1.50 3.30 4.80 5.4 1.69 .90 3.31 2.80 19.6
91-92 LAC 82 82 38.3 .440 .303 .736 1.50 4.00 5.50 5.1 1.85 .88 3.07 2.40 18.2
92-93 LAC 80 77 37.1 .451 .280 .769 1.50 3.90 5.30 4.5 2.21 .91 2.78 2.70 18.0
93-94 LAC 75 75 38.1 .426 .301 .715 1.70 4.40 6.10 4.6 1.92 .72 3.23 2.20 20.1

 

[arthurracoon]

JJ is THE MAN!!!


Almost gets the 30 pts AGAIN and almost gets a triple double: 27 pts, 8 reb, 10 assists.

Once again,


JJ is THE MAN!!!

 

[Chaplin]

Tracy McGrady has a streak of 16 straight games of scoring at least 20 points. #2 in the league? Our own Joe Johnson with 6.

 

[elindholm]

Tracy McGrady has a streak of 16 straight games of scoring at least 20 points. #2 in the league? Our own Joe Johnson with 6.

Well, okay, but Jake Voskuhl leads the entire league in fouls committed. How cool is that?

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Tracy McGrady has a streak of 16 straight games of scoring at least 20 points. #2 in the league? Our own Joe Johnson with 6.

Well, okay, but Jake Voskuhl leads the entire league in fouls committed. How cool is that?

Look at it this way: 2 months ago, did any of us actually believe that Joe Johnson would be scoring 20 or more points in 6 straight games? Marbury and Marion don't even do that.

 

[creed]

Why not just dump White AND Eisley? To do that we'd probably use draft picks (with money) and that would be consistant in keeping salary down. I mean do we need more youth at this point? We're already the youngest team in the NBA and this next draft doesnt seem real strong.

By dumping Eisley/White/draft-picks we can go after any free agent (Kobe?) plus have money left over to give JJ an extension.

With Kobe and JJ on the payroll it may seem redundant but we have the rights to both players for future trades.

Going after Kobe is consistant with Colangelo draft philosophy...going after the best talent available regardless of position.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by creed
Why not just dump White AND Eisley? To do that we'd probably use draft picks (with money) and that would be consistant in keeping salary down. I mean do we need more youth at this point? We're already the youngest team in the NBA and this next draft doesnt seem real strong.

It is by no means self evident that the Suns could get rid of Eisley with one draft pick. Most people on this board doubt it. So how much do you give to get rid up to get rid of a bad contract? Two picks?

I would give up the NY pick to move Eisley's contract, but no more. Lately the Suns have drafted Marion, Stoudemire, Jacobsen, Carbakapa, and Barbosa with their first round picks and traded for Johnson (a 10th). Picks or trading for young players is the reason the Suns have a future.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Yeah but at some point I think you might need a mixture of solid veterans to go along with your picks...Also, lets say you picked the best potential player that is there for your team when you pick. At some point they will be headed for free agency if you don't sign them... Would we be able to win a championship if we did pick the best players in the draft that are available with our pics?

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by SunCardfan
Yeah but at some point I think you might need a mixture of solid veterans to go along with your picks...Also, lets say you picked the best potential player that is there for your team when you pick. At some point they will be headed for free agency if you don't sign them... Would we be able to win a championship if we did pick the best players in the draft that are available with our pics?

The challenge is to get guys that the team can use. So far the Suns have proven they can find quality players that can actually contribute. But I agree it will be harder because the range of needs is smaller.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm probably one of the more salary conscious posters on this message board, but I think it is insane to even consider what might happen to a draftee in free agency when drafting.

Joe Mama

 

[frdbtr]

Originally posted by frdbtr
Every thread turns into the "get Kobe" argument "D'antoni is a great coach"

Reply: "Yeah but if we had Kobe he would be a better coach" It is a never ending cycle and we will probably have to deal with it until he decides to not opt out of his contract this year.

Originally posted by Chaplin
Please. Nobody has attributed the possibility of Kobe Bryant here having anything to do with whether D'Antoni would be a better coach.

I wish, when discussing this matter, people stuck to what those of us that support it actually say.

And I will once again say that a JJ/Kobe backcourt would easily be the best backcourt in the league.

I was illustrating absurdity by being absurd Chaplin

 

[schutd]

JJ and Kobe in the same backcourt? That might be the angle the Suns would take, but I HONESTLY think JJ would turn, once again, into the fragile player he was before. Also, Vujanic and or Barbosa would have to go in that scenario.

JJ wouldnt have the confidence of being a primary scorere in the offense, he'd have to adjust to getting fewer attempts per game. Hell, Amare would, and so would Marion.

I think Ive talked myself out of wanting Kobe. I dont think you spend over 10 mil a year on a player whose talents may be unmatched, but is an unknown in terms of bad he would tear aprt the rest of what the organization has put together.

Id rather wait a few more years, roll with our current set of big name players, find good compliments, and see what this team could do.

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by elindholm
over marbury's time here how many times did he come down the court and fire up a 3 pointer with no chance of anyone on the team getting a rebound.

Well of course. But is that selfishness or bad judgement? And what does it have to do with Bryant?

Scot was talking about Marbury. The thread is about JJ. Why does it have to have anything to do with Bryant? I think you're obsessed like so many on this board talking about Kobe Bryant. I voted in the poll to stop talking about him..... guess it didn't do any good

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Wally
Scot was talking about Marbury. The thread is about JJ. Why does it have to have anything to do with Bryant? I think you're obsessed like so many on this board talking about Kobe Bryant. I voted in the poll to stop talking about him..... guess it didn't do any good

Was that an "official" poll?

Who cares about the thread, if you have a problem with it, start a new one or just don't post. Just stop whining about it!