Is the current situation the Suns in on Porter or the players?

[Mainstreet]

I still believe that we will see something at the end of the regular season that we never saw under D'Antoni -- a playoff-ready team.

That's what it's all about.

Even if the Suns don't make the playoffs?

If Porter hasn't already lost the players he is very close to it.

 

[nowagimp]

Mixing a defensive oriented, slow it down type of scheme with these mix of players was like mixing oil and water. Porter's not a bad coach, he just wasn't a good fit with this team.

the players apparently believe this, and whether or not its true that is damaging enough to prevent this team from being playoff ready. I dont disagree that the roster doesnt fit, but they apparently believe it and thats as bad as it being true.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Last year after a couple of games, many talked about the need to fire D'Antoni and were bashed on the point that "it's too early in the season to judge whether he has incorporated Grant Hill effectively, etc". Now, it seems to be ok to judge Porter's system after one month of play?

Let's not play revisionist history. Mike D'Antoni did a lot of things great during the regular season, but could never overcome championship teams when in mattered most. He never developed talent, he never stressed defense, and he never apologized for any of it. I'm sure his NY team will do fine this season, however, when they are matched up against a true contender in the post season, they will fold like paper.

I'm willing to be somewhat critical of a couple of things about Porter. I was hoping he could inspire Amare to be better than he has been and raise his game... hasn't happened yet. I was hoping that his defensive mind could stop the scoring from the guard positions... but they continue to light up Steve and LB. However, let's not ignore the positives. When it was clear that Dragic was unsure of himself, he was relagated to 3rd string and Singletary was pushed to 2nd (although, this move arguable could have/should have happened sooner). That move went against the front office hype of the Dragic, and ignored the fact that his replacement was also a rookie. The FG% is pretty solid, thus the offensive game plane is putting themselves into positions to score with a higher likelyhood of success - going inside to Shaq early for example.

The majority of the blame has to be on the Players. Nash plays uninspired during long stretches, as if to show the coach that he hates the system. He finally flipped the switch last week when playing the Thunder and took over. There are stretches during a game when I forget he even is on the court. Part of that is by design, but Steve is not exerting himself when clearly the team needs a floor leader (again, I do think Porter is keeping him low key in order to be effective in April, May, and June... but keeping him quiet?).

Stat? Where do you begin? I am ready for a trade for STAT... I am convinced that his IQ is just over 80, possible a few points lower, but no higher than 90.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

The D'Antoni lovefest is pretty hilarious, the guy got ridiculously outcoached in just about every playoff series when coaches and players had time to acclimate themselves and pick apart his one-dimensional O and porous D. Seriously, any coach who almost loses a playoff series to a team that started Smush Parker, Luke Walton, and Kwame Brown needs serious evaluation.

Now don't get me wrong, Porter sucks and SarvKerr continuing the Phoenix Suns tradition of instilling an overachieving early 90's PG to be the head coach is terribly annoying. But whining for the glory days of Mike D'Antoni and his fraudulent 50+ wins teams will get the Suns nowhere.

 

[Mainstreet]

Last year after a couple of games, many talked about the need to fire D'Antoni and were bashed on the point that "it's too early in the season to judge whether he has incorporated Grant Hill effectively, etc". Now, it seems to be ok to judge Porter's system after one month of play?

Let's not play revisionist history. Mike D'Antoni did a lot of things great during the regular season, but could never overcome championship teams when in mattered most. He never developed talent, he never stressed defense, and he never apologized for any of it. I'm sure his NY team will do fine this season, however, when they are matched up against a true contender in the post season, they will fold like paper.

D'Antoni was with the Suns only four full seasons. I won't bother to list his accomplishments because they are well known. Seriously, don't you think D'Antoni should have been given a longer window to win a Championship? As far as I'm concerned the baby was thrown out with the bath water. This is what happens with a GM (Kerr) that wants to play coach. For the life of me I can't see why D'Antoni wasn't given a longer window. The truth is the fans were spoiled by D'Antoni's winning ways and in so many ways he was a victim of his own success.

As far as Porter is concerned, I sincerely wish he does well. I'm a Suns fan first. However, I feel unless something changes, welcome to average.

 

[Errntknght]

I certainly don't pine for days gone by - D'Antoni, FJ, Skiles, Ainge etc. I like Porter's overall approach - we had all our eggs in one basket by having an offense only Nash could operate and every year it looked more like a handbasket headed you-know-where. I'm not wild about too much reliance on Shaq because, come the playoffs teams will resort to the 'hack-a-Shaq' but it does make sense to use him heavily in the early part of games and sit him late, for the same reason. It saves a lot of wear and tear on Amare, too - which he seems to have forgotten about. I agree with TucsonD about Singletary vs Dragic. Heck, we are even seeing LB pull up for a mid-range jumper now and then.

For a while there the players, especially Nash, were so sloppy with the ball it was hard to tell what Porter had in mind for the offense but now its becoming evident that he's weak on the X's and O's. I mean, it is off the charts dumb not to have several options off your primary set up. Reminds me of FJ with the high screen for Marbury... and I can't think of a stronger condemnation.

 

[nowagimp]

Last year after a couple of games, many talked about the need to fire D'Antoni and were bashed on the point that "it's too early in the season to judge whether he has incorporated Grant Hill effectively, etc". Now, it seems to be ok to judge Porter's system after one month of play?

Let's not play revisionist history. .

Yeah lets not revise it, last year was lost before the season started with KT plus 2 #1's going away for cash. No way any system or coach could survive the interior defense with amare at full time center guarding the likes of Tim Duncan and andrew bynum. DA had little to do with that debacle, Savakerr did the deed. those who thought the inability to defend the post was a coaching problem were clueless, no coach could compensate for that.

However you can cling to your fond memories of distorted reality as a modern day nostradomus.

 

[SirStefan32]

Today's Republic referred to the Country Club atmosphere that existed under Mike D'Antoni. Of course, there's going to be an adjustment period for the players.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/heatindex/articles/2008/12/01/20081201spt-p2main.html

I still believe that we will see something at the end of the regular season that we never saw under D'Antoni -- a playoff-ready team.

That's what it's all about.

That is a very good article. Throws a lot of myths out of the window, and I just love the part about Stoudemire-
"Stoudemire has yet to get the Suns past the Western Conference finals - and they made it that far once without him.

Want companies to "adore" you? Want to be "that guy"?

Win a championship."

notworthy

 

[JPlay]

I believe a lot of the blame has to do with past personnel moves and the current roster. Every current Suns player has serious limitations, not to mention we've been getting older instead of trying to get younger. Barbosa can't pass and makes bad decisions, Diaw is too passive, Raja can't create, Nash can't play defense, Amare is a defensive liability and has no post moves, Shaq is extremely limited athletically at this point in his career. However, I think what really hurts the Suns is that they have no player who can create his own shot at any time...ala Joe Johnson. When plays don't develop there is nobody who can create their own shot, so turnovers occur.

I would love if the Suns could get younger and more athletic and also get some shooters. Athletic young players like Josh Smith, Rudy Fernandez, Luol Deng, John Salmons, Andre Iguadola.

 

[BC867]

When plays don't develop there is nobody who can create their own shot...

Except Steve Nash and Shaq. An aging little man and an aging big man. But no one in between.

 

[TucsonDevil]

However you can cling to your fond memories of distorted reality as a modern day nostradomus.

That was AWESOME!

I guess you still missed a few keys points - the 2007-2008 Suns were doomed to fail, but how about the 2006-2007 Suns? They had everything and failed under D'Antoni's rule. He was out coached again in the Spurs series. Remember Game 1? D'Antoni didn't think it important to play KT in long stretches, opting instead for the 'quick offense' - thus the Suns were horrible inside against TD and the boards (btw, the reason we got KT was for the Spurs series). Of course, he then made the correction in Game 2 - but by then, it was too late. And btw, that move was easily predicted by scores of fans on this board... but your beloved D'Antoni, stubborn as ever, refused to see it.

Last year wasn't D'Antoni's downfall... it was a combination of all of the years.

So, if there are those that have 'fond memories' of how D'Antoni was just on the cusp of a championship, but couldn't get over a thing here or there... let me make it simple for you. Name one "championship caliber team" that the Suns overcame in a playoff series under D'Antoni?

 

[nowagimp]

That was AWESOME!

I guess you still missed a few keys points - the 2007-2008 Suns were doomed to fail, but how about the 2006-2007 Suns? They had everything and failed under D'Antoni's rule. He was out coached again in the Spurs series. Remember Game 1? D'Antoni didn't think it important to play KT in long stretches, opting instead for the 'quick offense' - thus the Suns were horrible inside against TD and the boards (btw, the reason we got KT was for the Spurs series). Of course, he then made the correction in Game 2 - but by then, it was too late. And btw, that move was easily predicted by scores of fans on this board... but your beloved D'Antoni, stubborn as ever, refused to see it.

Last year wasn't D'Antoni's downfall... it was a combination of all of the years.

So, if there are those that have 'fond memories' of how D'Antoni was just on the cusp of a championship, but couldn't get over a thing here or there... let me make it simple for you. Name one "championship caliber team" that the Suns overcame in a playoff series under D'Antoni?

the only year that DA had all his rotation players for the playoffs was the suspension year, and that was not about being outcoached, except in the distorted view of a modern day DAntoni hating Nostradomus. But, those who think the suns got a good coach in porter are really putting on their predictive hats, they guy doesnt even have a winning record as a head coach. But because he wants to play spurs style ball - abeit without duncan parker and ginobili- its assumed that it will work. Plenty of teams play spurs style ball and have nothing to show for it.

 

[JPlay]

Except Steve Nash and Shaq. An aging little man and an aging big man. But no one in between.

I think what has been missing from Nash is that stutter step or that little carry that using to get him past other points. Also teams are switching on the pick and roll with him and Amare to neutralize the roll. Nash needs to dump it into Amare if that happens or take his man off the dribble.

 

[mojorizen7]

the only year that DA had all his rotation players for the playoffs was the suspension year, and that was not about being outcoached, except in the distorted view of a modern day DAntoni hating Nostradomus. But, those who think the suns got a good coach in porter are really putting on their predictive hats, they guy doesnt even have a winning record as a head coach. But because he wants to play spurs style ball - abeit without duncan parker and ginobili- its assumed that it will work. Plenty of teams play spurs style ball and have nothing to show for it.

It's no use fellas, Gimp is D'Antoni's press agent.....i'm convinced.
In Nowagimps mind, D'Antoni is a genius,practiced defense,played a 7 man rotation because he had to,had no responsibility in the makeup of his roster despite a stint as GM,was in favor of the Shaq/Marion trade,was never outcoached including the playoffs,only had a full roster for one year despite having a 2 time MVP, 6th man, MIP, and an All Star loaded roster for the better part of 4 yrs.

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[Cheesebeef]

the only year that DA had all his rotation players for the playoffs was the suspension year, and that was not about being outcoached, except in the distorted view of a modern day DAntoni hating Nostradomus. But, those who think the suns got a good coach in porter are really putting on their predictive hats, they guy doesnt even have a winning record as a head coach.

again, why do you have to get snarky here with "modern day nostradamus" garbage? and thinking DA had flaws while ALSO thinking Porter's a bad coach AREN'T mutually exclusive ideas. no matter how much you want to make it out that there are two camps: DA is a good and Porter sucks versus. DA was an idiot and Porter's a God that ain't the reality of what most people are saying. It's just an easier comparison to make an argument against.

 

[Bufalay]

But, those who think the suns got a good coach in porter are really putting on their predictive hats, they guy doesnt even have a winning record as a head coach.

I agree that Porter probably isn't much of a coach, but your arguments are trash. D'antoni's first two seasons as a coach were pretty horrible. It took him a while to have an overall winning record.

 

[Mainstreet]

It's no use fellas, Gimp is D'Antoni's press agent.....i'm convinced.
In Nowagimps mind, D'Antoni is a genius,practiced defense,played a 7 man rotation because he had to,had no responsibility in the makeup of his roster despite a stint as GM,was in favor of the Shaq/Marion trade,was never outcoached including the playoffs,only had a full roster for one year despite having a 2 time MVP, 6th man, MIP, and an All Star loaded roster for the better part of 4 yrs.

You must be registered for see images attach

That was a great ride with D'Antoni as HC of the Suns. Take virtually the same talent and add Porter, now the playoffs seem to be slipping away.

Nowagimp has one of the best basketball minds on this board. I hope those who are D'Antoni detractors enjoy the ride from the penthouse to the outhouse.

 

[Bufalay]

Take virtually the same talent and add Porter

Hypothetically speaking.

 

[Covert Rain]

That was a great ride with D'Antoni as HC of the Suns. Take virtually the same talent and add Porter, now the playoffs seem to be slipping away.

Sorry but it's not that simple. You have guys that have been programmed to play a certain way for the last 4 years and your asking a new coach to untrain the team. You have guys that D'Antoni wanted here to run his small ball, run and gun..think about defense 2nd mentality and again asking Porter to work with those guys using a new system.

Let's also not forget that under D'Antoni this team appeared to be taking steps back. Even under D'Antoni this team appeared to be headed down hill BEFORE Porter took over. This team was not headed in the right direction which IMO is another reason D'Atoni decided he wanted to bolt. Would D'Antoni have made the playoffs again? Maybe but anybody who thinks we would have one a championship with these guys and the likes of the Lakers in the West this year is delusional. Getting to the playoffs is not enough.

I was a D'Antoni fan. I also, defended D'Antoni on these very boards when people were asking him to be fired before last season and at the start of last season. I felt give the guy a full 4 years and wait until the end of last season before making a decision.

I am not saying Porter is the answer nor am I saying he is a great coach. I am just saying that D'Antoni wasn't the answer either and at least the Suns tried something. I said that I felt that this team would be looking for another coach in a few years after the Porter hiring. Having said that...it doesn't mean we should have kept D'Antoni either.

 

[Mainstreet]

I am not saying Porter is the answer nor am I saying he is a great coach. I am just saying that D'Antoni wasn't the answer either and at least the Suns tried something. I said that I felt that this team would be looking for another coach in a few years after the Porter hiring. Having said that...it doesn't mean we should have kept D'Antoni either.

If a GM does not have a better coach lined up, one simply does not make a move. I guess I can't understand how the Suns FO gets rid of a HC with D'Antoni's credentials and winning record after only four full seasons. Also remember his teams were in the WCFs for two of his four full seasons here. If you thought Porter was not going to be the coach of the future, why choose him? Why not ride out the next two years with D'Antoni as HC (which would keep the Suns afloat) and then rebuild in 2010. Also it would have given D'Antoni two more years to see if his vision played out.

Unless something changes dramatically the Suns are one boring basketball team that is not going anywhere.

 

[Covert Rain]

If a GM does not have a better coach lined up, one simply does not make a move. I guess I can't understand how the Suns FO gets rid of a HC with D'Antoni's credentials and winning record after only four full seasons. Also remember his teams were in the WCFs for two of his four full seasons here. If you thought Porter was not going to be the coach of the future, why choose him? Why not ride out the next two years with D'Antoni as HC (which would keep the Suns afloat) and then rebuild in 2010. Also it would have given D'Antoni two more years to see if his vision played out.

I am sure the Suns thought they had the real deal in Porter. So even though I didn't, the Suns thought they did so making the move made sense. I will eat crow if it happens but I still think D'Antoni will never win a title playing small ball......EVER.

Unless something changes dramatically the Suns are one boring basketball team that is not going anywhere.

Exciting and no championship or boring and no championship still equals no championship. I have had enough years of watching the Suns play exciting basketball with no title to show for it.

Exciting basketball just feels empty now. It's like eating a Christmas cookie with Splenda and only finding out after 3 hours in the bathroom they didn't use the real thing (sugar).

 

[Mainstreet]

Exciting and no championship or boring and no championship still equals no championship. I have had enough years of watching the Suns play exciting basketball with no title to show for it.

Okay, you get neither.

Exciting basketball just feels empty now. It's like eating a Christmas cookie with Splenda and only finding out after 3 hours in the bathroom they didn't use the real thing (sugar).

No cookie for you.

 

[nowagimp]

Unless something changes dramatically the Suns are one boring basketball team that is not going anywhere.

Wait a minute ALL teams go somewhere. The question is how soon will they be gone fishing with chuck and kenny, before or shortly after(1st round) the regular season ends?

 

[nowagimp]

I am sure the Suns thought they had the real deal in Porter.

Sounds just like what they though they had in Dragic, the "2nd best PG in the draft after rose". I suppose they dont believe that anymore as singletary( a second rounder) is now taking dragics minutes. Now also speights and McGee look alot better than Lopez, and both were taken after lopez .... zarko lives! I openly admit I didnt predict these things, but I am not getting paid a mil/yr to figure it out. Other teams seem to have better talent evaluators. the suns should hire some of those guys.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wait a minute ALL teams go somewhere. The question is how soon will they be gone fishing with chuck and kenny, before or shortly after(1st round) the regular season ends?

I'm thinking the Suns do not make the playoffs unless a trade yields something significant. I've watched the Suns since they became a franchise. For the first time in many, many years I'm only watching the Suns for entertainment value... but even that is not there anymore. Nevertheless I keep hoping for a miracle.