Kevin Kolb is done (IMO)

Scionxb2k11

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Hello all,

I live in minny! I am a Jackson fan. I have followed him his entire career. I only read the first 5 posts and though I would just give you all some food for thought. Kolb isn't very good, don't know about Skelton, but what I do know is tarvaris Jackson is worth his weight in gold. Now what I mean by that is this. I am not saying he is a top 10 qb, or future HOF, but he IS tough and solid at qb.

He has his short comings no doubt, but he played half of last year with a legitimate torn pec on his throwing arm, he is a good leader, doesn't complain and gives 100%. Now he may not be your future but he sure could hold the fort down for a couple years untill you find your future. So many knock him because he isn't a elite qb, well if u can't be elite you can at least be solid and dependable. Cut Kolb, sign Jackson and let him play the season with Skelton as the backup. Just food for thought. Have a great day!
 

MadCardDisease

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The problem is that Urban is a mouthpiece for the team now, which makes his support of Kolb even more scary. CKW also said they couldn't evaluate Skelton because he had so few reps. I'm terrified that either CKW is convinced he needs to start Kolb, or that the FO is trying to force him to start Kolb. The Urban quote really, really worries me.

I don't think Ubran is supporting Kolb. I just think he is in a tricky situation. He works for the team and is allowed access to the locker room. But much like Vegas, what happens in the locker room stays in the Locker room.

To expect the team reporter to come out and "open the kimono" per se just isn't going to happen. He is the team reporter and not a mole for the fans. In a situation like this his hands are tied IMO. For the QB situation he will defer to coach Whiz for the answer.
 

red desert

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We all saw the game.
We all know Kolb is done. Some of us knew that months ago. :)

The scariest thing about this entire situation, is that Wiz will sit down at the press conference and continue to make excuses for Kolb. HE is the biggest problem here. Wouldn't surprise me if we got one of his "we've had success in the past so we obviously know that our system (cough cough Warner) works."
 

Stout

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I don't think Ubran is supporting Kolb. I just think he is in a tricky situation. He works for the team and is allowed access to the locker room. But much like Vegas, what happens in the locker room stays in the Locker room.

To expect the team reporter to come out and "open the kimono" per se just isn't going to happen. He is the team reporter and not a mole for the fans. In a situation like this his hands are tied IMO. For the QB situation he will defer to coach Whiz for the answer.

I don't think we expect a mole, or anything anywhere near that. Some semblance of unbiased reporting would be nice, though. All he has to do is comment on what happens on the field. He doesn't even have to use strong language or anything overt, but simply comment on what we all see. He has ZERO reason to sugarcoat Kolb's performance unless the team WANTS him to.
 

Crazy Canuck

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Unless there is some provision that allows one defer the accelerated bonus, I can't see him being cut. We may be shopping for another O-lineman and it could screw up any plan to sign D-Wash and the Howler long term.
 

Cheesebeef

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The problem is that Urban is a mouthpiece for the team now, which makes his support of Kolb even more scary. CKW also said they couldn't evaluate Skelton because he had so few reps. I'm terrified that either CKW is convinced he needs to start Kolb, or that the FO is trying to force him to start Kolb. The Urban quote really, really worries me.

Exactly what I was afraid of.
 

Crimson Warrior

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Just because you have me on ignore doesn't mean that I suddenly forget how you and AZF were leading the charge for Kevin Kolb. If you can admit that you were wrong, and it turns out that he only looked good in two games because he was playing against toothless defenses as the 7th or 8th best player on this offense, and putting our eggs in the Kolb basket was a mistake, we'll bury the hatchet.

I've come correct on Daryl Washington and am in the process of doing so with Ryan Williams. You were wrong on Kevin Kolb in a big, big way. Some of us can read the quarterback position, and others of us come out and say that Kevin Kolb is going to be a Top 10 quarterback in this league.

I'll give credit where credit is due as well. You were, for example, correct about max hall being horrible, even though almost everyone else, including a well respected pundit, peter king, was singing his praises. good work sir.

And, you may be on record as being against the Kolb acquisition. I'm not exactly sure where you came down on that one. What is certain is that there were several for, and several against, trading DRC and a #2 to PHI for KK.

Even those that were against the trade however, did not predict, or probably envision, that it would turn into the train wreck that it appears to have become. What appears to be happening is pretty much a worst case scenario for the outcome of the trade.

I guess I'm now ready to concede that it was a mistake (although I think kolb may have one last gasp if skelton performs poorly as the starter). But, the Cardinals front office is not guilty of gross negligence in this case. They took a calculated risk on Kolb, and not an unreasonable one.

The consequences of failing to accurately assess Kolb will continue to be, for the near future, fairly severe, but they can be overcome.

So, as a group (I'm not singling you out specifically), let's not use hindsight as a tool to justify unnecessarily berating our coaches or the front office. They gambled and failed, but considering all of the context, it was not foolish gamble, and the negative effect of the outcome will not necessarily be long lasting.

We did not, for example, miss out on an opportunity to obtain the next (or even the present) peyton manning.

Let's not use our struggles during 2012 as an excuse to make the Kolb trade out to be something worse that it was. Let's rally around Skelton. If he's not the answer, then we'll try address the QB position again at the end of the year.
 
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crisper57

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Well Kolb did dictate the timetable for our courtship of Manning. Not saying it would've helped, but is just another way he let us down by not stepping up himself.
 

SissyBoyFloyd

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All I want to chime in with is: Don't you think every defensive player in the league has read the Raiders' comment on Kolb being scared. Any defense we face from now one will smell blood when Kolb is on the field. Poor guy has signed his "death" wish with last night's game. He is done for in this league, period.

And if Whiz and our coaching staff is too dumb to see that, well we need a new coach and staff then. This season should be devoted to Skelton from this point on to see if we need to draft a QB next year or if we have our guy already. And for those of you who keep thinking we should juggle QBs when one has a bad game, that is nonsense. You pick a guy and ride him to the finish line. Every QB has a horrible game every few outings. Remember some of Warner's? Personally, I hope we stop heehawing around about it. We look stupid as a team by doing so. Man up, pick our QB, and be proud of him, support him fully, and be patient as he grows into a top tier QB and gives us a descent future to look forward too.
 
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clif

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Look at Heap

And that is why you're not a coach. You can't take a still photo after the game and say anything is anything because who knows exactly when Heap turned around or was even in the right spot or what. I'm not making excuses for Kolb, I'm simply saying looking at that photo by itself is not going to make your case.
 

crisper57

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And that is why you're not a coach. You can't take a still photo after the game and say anything is anything because who knows exactly when Heap turned around or was even in the right spot or what. I'm not making excuses for Kolb, I'm simply saying looking at that photo by itself is not going to make your case.

I've watched that play over and over. Raiders brought a safety blitz. Heap started to block, recognized it, and tried to slip out as a release valve. He certainly recognized it late.

Meanwhile, Kolb didn't recognize the blitz. He didn't look for Heap. Maybe he thought one of his other receivers was the hot read? Based on what Heap did, it looks like he thought that should have been him. So either 2 receivers got it wrong or 1 QB did.

None this really matters because Kolb's eyes never left the oncoming rush, so how was he ever going to find any receiver?

I am not saying he absolutely should have seen Heap, who also looked awkward on that play. I am saying he didn't recognize where the pressure was coming from and never had a plan B except to go fetal.
 

crisper57

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Sorry bro. Yes look at Heap.

Also look at #52 of the Raiders. That's the guy Heap was supposed to block and he completely wiffed.

Your screenshot is 100% Heap's fault.

More like 25%. There are like 4 guys who missed their assignments on that play.
 

ajcardfan

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I don't think Ubran is supporting Kolb. I just think he is in a tricky situation. He works for the team and is allowed access to the locker room. But much like Vegas, what happens in the locker room stays in the Locker room.

To expect the team reporter to come out and "open the kimono" per se just isn't going to happen. He is the team reporter and not a mole for the fans. In a situation like this his hands are tied IMO. For the QB situation he will defer to coach Whiz for the answer.

When Urban worked for the East Valley Tribune, he was far and away the best Cards reporter we've ever had in Arizona. I can't blame him, one bit, for taking a job with the Cards, but now you have to take everything he says with a grain of salt.
 

Jetstream Green

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I'll give credit where credit is due as well. You were, for example, correct about max hall being horrible, even though almost everyone else, including a well respected pundit, peter king, was singing his praises. good work sir.

And, you may be on record as being against the Kolb acquisition. I'm not exactly sure where you came down on that one. What is certain is that there were several for, and several against, trading DRC and a #2 to PHI for KK.

Even those that were against the trade however, did not predict, or probably envision, that it would turn into the train wreck that it appears to have become. What appears to be happening is pretty much a worst case scenario for the outcome of the trade.

I guess I'm now ready to concede that it was a mistake (although I think kolb may have one last gasp if skelton performs poorly as the starter). But, the Cardinals front office is not guilty of gross negligence in this case. They took a calculated risk on Kolb, and not an unreasonable one.

The consequences of failing to accurately assess Kolb will continue to be, for the near future, fairly severe, but they can be overcome.

So, as a group (I'm not singling you out specifically), let's not use hindsight as a tool to justify unnecessarily berating our coaches or the front office. They gambled and failed, but considering all of the context, it was not foolish gamble, and the negative effect of the outcome will not necessarily be long lasting.

We did not, for example, miss out on an opportunity to obtain the next (or even the present) peyton manning.

Let's not use our struggles during 2012 as an excuse to make the Kolb trade out to be something worse that it was. Let's rally around Skelton. If he's not the answer, then we'll try address the QB position again at the end of the year.

that is all that needs to be said on the matter, good points all of them. Whisenhunt is just playing PR politics now, he knows Skelton is the starter and I think that is the reason Skelton got so few of snaps because he already knows the answer and he is protecting his starting QB for the real season. Whis is being polite towards Kolb with his answers right now because he is a party to the mistake of Kolb not working out.
 
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oaken1

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that is all that needs to be said on the matter, good points all of them. Whisenhunt is just playing PR politics now, he knows Skelton is the starter and I think that is the reason Skelton got so few of snaps because he already knows the answer and he is protecting his starting QB for the real season. Whis is being polite towards Kolb with his answers right now because he is a party to the mistake of Kolb not working out.



That is what I am hoping. Skelton went out, went 3/3, had a decent showing....pulling him then allows the confidence to sink in...sending him back out in the second half opens the opportunity for something bad to happen.
hope I aint giving the coach too much credit,lol.
 

CardsFan88

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Kolb's deal and Kolb's extension are two separate decisions. We could of made the trade and not given him an extension. It's not like he was making 500k on a rookie contract. He was under a pretty lucrative contract the Eagles had given him.

Our front office thought that by locking up an unknown early on, they could shave a few million bucks from the cap to spend elsewhere. The problem is, they forgot to check whether or not the QB was any good. Or just hoped too much.

People keep putting the two together. Because without the 2nd separate horrible decision, we don't have him under contract. He might not even be on this team as it would be hard pressed to re-sign him after last year, but perhaps they pull a Levi and sign him for a makeshift 2-3 million per for a year or two. While Manning most likely would not have signed here, the bonus taking us out of the picture wouldn't of been there. We could of been free to go after other QB's. It might not be better overall right now. Maybe we have Flynn who is a question mark. Maybe we have our pick of veteran backups, and Skelton has more time to prepare as a starter for this season. When all is said and done. If Skelton is our starter, he'd of been better off with more reps from the get-go. The contract necessitated this competition. No extension. Hard pressed to have a QB controversy. Maybe there is still one, but between Skelton and some other veteran QB. We'll never know of course. But it isn't hard to fathom this.

Trading for a QB shows Fitz you're serious. Making sure he's good before signing him to an extension shows everyone, including Fitz, you're going to approach finding a QB correctly. That you're willing to take a risk to get one, but will be smart about it. Because the key is having a legitimate QB. Not thinking you have one. Signing any QB to more than they are worth, doesn't make them a better QB ever.

No way does Kolb light it up so much that he earns a much bigger paycheck that what we gave him. But if he earned 12...maybe 15 a season, then you'd be signing a known quantity. But that was a very long shot given the lockout and a new system. With hindsight we can see he never was going to even justify his current contract, which we never needed to give him. He was making I forget 5-6 million last year under his old contract? No legitimate reason to sign him before we knew how he'd fit in with us. He wasn't a free agent. He was traded to us and under contract. It was a step we didn't need to take.

I agree with others that Kelly's words are going to be locker room material for whenever a team faces Kolb as a starter in the future. I think defenses have been snowballing him (i.e. putting him in a position for things to snowball) for the past year, and if anyone hadn't gotten the message before, they will now. Defenses are going to continually try to force Kolb into his least comfortable spot. They smell blood. CKW probably knows this. I don't see how he doesn't. Maybe front office will overrule him, or maybe he'll still pick Kolb. I don't see it happening though. I think as mentioned on other threads the guys that most likely picked or lobbied the hardest for Kolb are gone. Meaning imo and guess that the front office is probably short on Kolb supporters (if it even matters), but that they wanted to be prudent given the investment. I think the evidence is in.

Kolb's eye level is extremely low. He is shellshocked. The Ryan Williams blitz pick up shows he has little trust in his overall blocking. Not that he should have a ton of course, but he can't break away from thinking about it first when under fire. But the way he reacted doomed the play, and forced him right into trouble. Regardless if he has a line that isn't great, he can't play behind it. We can wonder if he'd be slightly better under a better line, but it doesn't matter. Our QB has to play behind this line. Skelton seems to be able to do it. Kolb can't.

If he's really looking at refs, wow.

As a person who has been critical of Kolb, and the front office, and mindful of him being knocked out of the first game of 2010 with a concussion from before the trade, I always hoped to be proven wrong. We all want the Cards to do well. It just was hard to see Kolb doing that, and giving him that contract was asinine. There are certain aspects where Kolb shows some quality traits.

The problem is, he's been exposed, and the defenses he face will never allow those traits to come through consistently. Him behind our OL was a bad idea. It allowed the defenses to figure him out, messed with his head, and now I don't see how even a good ol could protect him adequately. Oh and the concussions are still a big question mark, they just haven't reared their ugly head yet. Maybe it wasn't our OL's fault. But a part of him that was ready to be shown on the NFL level. But our OL sure didn't help hide it. But our other QB's, even if they have occasional problems, seem to weather it much better.

I think he's done. Even if he goes anywhere else, even with a good line. The defenses will just load up the tape from his time here and repeat it. Had he never been here, maybe he gets by for a few years as a mediocre QB. I think that ship has sailed. He's too focused now on what's behind the line of scrimmage, and the defenses have figured him out. His already low eye level, has become even lower. Instead of trying to raise it, it's gone the other way.

Blame him, blame the line, blame the concussions. It doesn't matter. He just can't do it im(strong)o behind our line.

He still might have one more game to salvage his career. Anything can happen. But I'll go with the writing on the wall, as it's what I've been seeing somewhat the whole time and whatever has been added continues to fester on.

But yeah, it's worse that expected, though I guess in this league it works like that. When you find something new that works, it works well and can become extremely effective for a while. Or if something tanks, and is figured out, it can snowball and get really bad.

I think that is what has happened to Kolb. Even on the good drive, aided by a supreme return by Peterson, and Williams's running, Kolb just didn't screw it up. Which can be said as 'did well' in a limited sense. But he did miss open receivers. He did checkdown. It was enough given the field position, running, and getting good play at various points. But with everything going for Kolb in this situation, he failed to really seize the moment and make a passing statement. He won't always be in such a favorable position. So when he was in one, he needed to make a statement. He didn't.

CKW cut one Captain Checkdown, and while Kolb is not quite as bad at doing that, I wouldn't count on Sgt. Checkdown to be on the team either. Like we kept Skelton, we're going to keep Lindley. I agree it might still cost Bartel his spot. Maybe not. But a definite shot.

Leinart preferred to checkdown because it seems he doesn't want to throw int's mostly. Kolb checks down because he can't keep his eyes up long enough to find anyone, otherwise I'm sure he'd want to throw more down field than Leinart. So while similar in checkdown results, for different reasons, and thus some pretty big differences while some pretty stark similarities. Again the demeanor of the two seems fairly similar as well, but of course not with differences. More likable than Leinart imo, but the similar ho-hum attitude.

I also will take a different tack from Urban's message. I think the staff doesn't want to be known as throwing players under the bus (let me qualify that: as in when there is a real problem, not for lack of effort under the bus). That they didn't cave in to the perception about Kolb, and tried to keep it fair the whole time. I think this aspect speaks to CKW attempts to be a professional as a coach. I think CKW knows what is going on, and is merely putting out the perception and perhaps asking (or by subtlety not asking) Urban not to feed into it. Let the process play out, and at the end of the day, CKW will take all the info he has and make a decision. After last night, barring a miracle next week, Kolb won't be on the team come opening day imo.

Good luck Kolb. I don't hate you. Just don't think you should be qb'ing the Cards.
 
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az1965

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So, as a group (I'm not singling you out specifically), let's not use hindsight as a tool to justify unnecessarily berating our coaches or the front office. They gambled and failed, but considering all of the context, it was not foolish gamble, and the negative effect of the outcome will not necessarily be long lasting.
it's not the risk or trade itself, per say... it is what we gave up both to Eagles as well as outrageous contract to an unproven QB that was the main issue.
 

az1965

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Sorry bro. Yes look at Heap.

Also look at #52 of the Raiders. That's the guy Heap was supposed to block and he completely wiffed.

Your screenshot is 100% Heap's fault.
And that is what is called beating the blitz... you throw to rusher's blocker (in this case Heap) who at that point was by himself. But, Kolb was too busy being "scared" and looking at the rushers than his receivers or routes.
 

Arizona's Finest

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Just because you have me on ignore doesn't mean that I suddenly forget how you and AZF were leading the charge for Kevin Kolb. If you can admit that you were wrong, and it turns out that he only looked good in two games because he was playing against toothless defenses as the 7th or 8th best player on this offense, and putting our eggs in the Kolb basket was a mistake, we'll bury the hatchet.

I've come correct on Daryl Washington and am in the process of doing so with Ryan Williams. You were wrong on Kevin Kolb in a big, big way. Some of us can read the quarterback position, and others of us come out and say that Kevin Kolb is going to be a Top 10 quarterback in this league.

Man you are too much. I have said I was wrong like 8 different times now on this subject both directly to you and in other posts and you still go to the well on this EVERY FREAKING TIME the subject comes up wether I'm commenting or not. I'm a fan of this team so there's probably a pretty good chance I'm going to talk myself into players. Not the last time ill be wrong either.

As you cited above your wrong more often then not, but unlike you I don't obsess over you and your opinions and keep drilling it like a little kid who finally was right over big brother for the first time ever.

Get my name out of your mouth fembot. I dont want you quoting me, referencing me, or bringing me up in posts too others. You dont get when to let it go so I'm letting you know the time is now.
 
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Crazy Canuck

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Just because you have me on ignore doesn't mean that I suddenly forget how you and AZF were leading the charge for Kevin Kolb. If you can admit that you were wrong, and it turns out that he only looked good in two games because he was playing against toothless defenses as the 7th or 8th best player on this offense, and putting our eggs in the Kolb basket was a mistake, we'll bury the hatchet.

I've come correct on Daryl Washington and am in the process of doing so with Ryan Williams. You were wrong on Kevin Kolb in a big, big way. Some of us can read the quarterback position, and others of us come out and say that Kevin Kolb is going to be a Top 10 quarterback in this league.

Correct me if wrong, but, I recall that at the time of the trade your rightly predicted that he'd be extended for 5 years at about 60M, and that given the choice of locking him up or playing him under the existing deal... this was a better choice.
 

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