jbeecham
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YES! Go on Mavs and ruin your team! Go from a perennial contender to a perennial 6-10th seed.
Kidd close to being a Maverick again
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The big plus for NJ is the addition of Devin Harris, Diop and the two first round draft picks. IMO, I would rather have Devin Harris as my PG than Kidd. So all-in-all, nice move by NJ.
This is a Harris for Kidd deal only. Imo, the other players involved or of no great significance for either team, because they hardly play.
This season's stats:
Harris: 14.4/2.3/5.3 (39 games, missed last 10)
Kidd: 11.3/8.1/10.4 (51 games)
This move makes Dallas better this year. It is risky for the future obviously because Kidd is 10 years older than Harris. But the last game Dallas only managed 8 assists on 36 field goals against Phoenix. You know that number is going to go up, as Kidd averages twice as many assists per game as Harris. Kidd is also a much better rebounder than Harris.
This season's stats:
Harris: 14.4/2.3/5.3 (39 games, missed last 10)
Kidd: 11.3/8.1/10.4 (51 games)
This move makes Dallas better this year. It is risky for the future obviously because Kidd is 10 years older than Harris. But the last game Dallas only managed 8 assists on 36 field goals against Phoenix. You know that number is going to go up, as Kidd averages twice as many assists per game as Harris. Kidd is also a much better rebounder than Harris.
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The winner of this trade and the other NBA trades are only going to be proven on the court. NJ getting two first round draft picks plus Harris (I personally liker Diop as a role center) is still very good.
It will be exciting how all this plays out. Right now I am more concerned about Phoenix getting a contributor before the trading deadline although I guess they could still pick up a FA after the deadline. I can't remember when playoff rosters are locked-in.
dodie53
A. O. II
why did I ruin anything. I stand by what i said. they are both great players....and they are different. one is not better than the other necessarily. I think if you asked phoenix fans they'd say amare is better. if you ask dallas fans they'd say dirk is better. if you ask fans around the nation they'd probably be split or dirk would have a slight edge if anyone did.
I agree. this team definitely makes dallas better for the meantime. Harris was getting much better offensively. His outside shot was starting to show some consistency this year. and that is all that he was lacking to be a consistent 15+ point guy. I know he is inconsistent passing the ball and that's why the mavs made this trade. They break down offensively at times when teams are able to keep harris out of the paint or fluster him into poor choices. terry can penetrate only to score. the mavs need a guy like kidd. the problem I have is in 3 years when kidd may be done and harris is thriving as a potential all star. a good trade for now, but I'm very surprised that they gave up on harris. Harris was my fav mavs player outside dirk and josh.
kidd is the 2nd oe 3rd best PG in the league IMO. and when nash was in dallas I always thought nash was a better scorer, but not better overall. now nash is playing in phoenix with an athletic freak like amare and he has taken it a step higher. nash is a much better shooter than kidd. aside from that they are pretty close IMO. chris paul and steve nash being better offensive scorers somwhere at 1 and 2 respectively.
jbeecham
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I think you'd be wrong. You could ask fans around the world and Dirk would probably only have an advantage in Germany.
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When Devin Harris is in the game he scares me as a player. He is kind of a Tony Parker type player getting in the lane and causing havoc plus he can shoot. Your right he is good.
However, I do not have this same such fear of Jason Kidd probably because I have seen his weaknesses... make him shoot from outside.
I am not shocked that someone from phoenix has that thought. I was trying to look from an unbiased point of view.
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One thing to think about, you do not hear many Suns moaning about the Suns trading Kidd. Now if the Suns were to trade Nash at this stage in his career there would be such an outcry it could be heard in Dallas, Texas.
that's what people say about parker and harris......who both can go cold. kidd is a better pg than harris no doubt about it. the question is how good will harris be 3 years later when the mavs might be wanting him back? harris was already showing better outside shooting and has improved drastically every year despite not getting much recognition......from even his own team. I think harris' importance to the mavs was highlighted over the last 7 games when he was hurt. they looked very stagnant offensively without him. I don't know that you can use the last game as a gauge on how dallas matches up with phoenix. and you can't really use the first game when marion, harris, and howard where all on the floor because harris and marion are out and apparantly shaq and kidd are in. I think how these two match up are still a big ? depending on how shaq and kidd turn out on their respective teams. I think it will be interesting to see how kidd will matchup against all of the WC PG's. there are many good ones. harris was the parker neutralizer and a HUGE reason why the mavs were able to beat SA in the playoffs and have great success vs. them in the reg season. he is a one man fast break.
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Why couldn't you say Amare and Dirk are both excellent players and leave it there rather than trying to give the edge to Dirk? This would have been unbiased.
nash is a great player no doubt. you have to understand he was my favorite PG for several years obviously. and i still like him despite the fact he plays on a rival WC team. having said that. I was upset when nash left, but I didn't realize how great he was til he got to phoenix playing with guys like marion, amare, johnson, barbosa, ect. I think if you let kidd play with a similiar cast as what nash does he would still be great and people would be upset to see him leave(if nash wasn't a suns player or never was in the picture.......you have to look at it that way to understand what i'm saying). Is he better than nash offensively? no way. nash is a much better shooter. It's easy to say that now with nash in phoenix and kidd a former suns player who played on a non contending caliber team when he was a sun. kidd looked lost at times when he was a mavs player too. but you could still tell the guy was a great PG and would be a great one for a long time.
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I will leave it at that. I said IF there was an edge dirk MIGHT have a slight one. I would take either guy on my team. Obviously since I'm a mavs fan i'm gonna stick up for my guy. at the end of the day they both probably serve the same importance to their respective team from an offensive standpoint despite having clashing differences in their game.
this is a much better deal for dallas on the second go around because they keep stack and george(who play consistent mins for their team) and they lose hassell and van horn who saw little to no action to begin with. like what was said before this is more about losing harris.......and maybe diop. I guess the mavs are impressed with bass' offense(scoring and rebounding), but he is not the defensive presence that diop is.He'll donate it to the Keith Van Horn Memorial Fund, a very specific charity dedicated exclusively to improving the lifestyle of Keith Van Horn.
The most glaring difference is the substitution of Hassell and the "rights" to Van Horn instead of Stackhouse and Devean George. When you consider that Stackhouse was coming back to Dallas anyway, and Devean George is...Devean George, it's hard to see how this trade isn't a little worse for Dallas than the first one.
edit: Wanted to add that Hassell had trouble scoring 9 points in 32 minutes on a terrible Minnesota team, so he's not exactly a big loss. And it's not like Diop gets any more minutes now in Avery Johnson's system than he was getting. Hmm...I think this deal still makes Dallas a team everybody wants to watch and nobody wants to play.
BeeBeard
Throw some Bees on that.
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Yeah I was comparing the wide array of players who came with the deal at first too, thinking the Nets actually cared about Hassell, Devean George, etc. What they really care about are just Harris, the picks, and (originally) Diop's and Devean George's expiring contracts. Hassell they weren't so keen on at first, because he's got a 2-year deal, so that money doesn't come off the table until '09. So I had it backwards, it's not as good of a deal for the Nets as it was before, but still a good one considering they're just giving up an aging point guard who wanted out anyway.
I'm not even sure the nets resign Diop at the end of the season, to be honest. The guys thrown in for Kidd were used to make the salaries match up and because (most) have expiring contracts. So the Nets end up saving money after they cut that dead weight, and get an above average, young developing point guard in the process. Not bad at all.
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Greg Popovich
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Miserable trade.
Great trade for every team in the West. Harris is great when not hurt--Diop has played well.
Great trade for every team in the West. Harris is great when not hurt--Diop has played well.
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I think the trade of Gasol to the Lakers obviously started this latest trading frenzy. Just looking at the trades of Gasol, Shaq and Kidd, it appears the safest of the three trades is probably for Gasol. I think the Suns and Mavericks are both hoping that the players they acquired still have some gas in the tank and can win them a Championship in the next couple of seasons. Of course the plum trade of the season was for KG. Here's hoping. I definitely do not want the Lakers or SA winning it
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Lorenzotexan, I forgot to mention I really like backup PG Jose Barea who went undrafted and the Mavs picked him up out of the summer league. He perhaps helped the Mavs take the gamble (giving up Devin Harris) when they went for Jason Kidd. I like his energy.
slinslin
Welcome to Amareca
Kidd had championship caliber teammates, the fact is that he got exposed in the playoffs and has never won a series against the West or in the West.
BeeBeard
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That's a good point. Barea looks like a nice find. Barea is undersized, but he was showing a lot of hustle in the Suns-Mavs game. He still showed some dubious judgment ("If I can just lay this up against Diaw--oops, blocked shot"), but that's expected with somebody that green.
Also consider that Jason Terry is probably one of the best combo guards in the league, and the Mavs will have plenty of depth at the point.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
though i would have loved to see the mavs lose stack the suns killer, i am still optimistic about this trade from a suns standpoint.
kidd will make the mavs better against most teams. i think objectively it is difficult to argue against that fact. my only question with acquiring him is a similar question posed to the suns . . . a matter of style. just as people question the suns' ability to incorporate a slower half-court type player in shaq, the mavs' offense has largely been predicated on one-on-one iso's. the low number of assists is a great indicator of such. kidd needs a slightly more movement in the offense to be effective, much like steve nash.
but more importantly (to suns fans), this trade lowers the mavs ability to compete with the suns. for years the two places to attack the suns were at the rim and at the point. nash just cannot effectively defense quick pgs. harris in particular gave him fits. nash just couldn't stay in front of him. replacing harris with kidd means much less of an issue for nash, which in turn means less help defense necessary. and with kidd shooting in the 30 - 35% range, nash WILL sag considerably off him. our defense just got a lot better against the mavs.
and the second prong is a new twist for the suns . . . and it's shaq-based. the loss of diop means one less big body in the post to defend against shaq. it means its ericka dampier or no one against shaq. and we all know what shaq thinks of ericka. this leaves the mavs with ericka, dirk, and bass as their only post defenders, and two of those cannot even hope to defend shaq, and those two also will never be effective on amare. damp and diop had some limited success against amare due to their size, but now they won't be covering amare . . . dirk and bass will be. advantage suns. big time.
so while this trade may be overall in dallas' interest, it weakens them against the suns. imho.
kidd will make the mavs better against most teams. i think objectively it is difficult to argue against that fact. my only question with acquiring him is a similar question posed to the suns . . . a matter of style. just as people question the suns' ability to incorporate a slower half-court type player in shaq, the mavs' offense has largely been predicated on one-on-one iso's. the low number of assists is a great indicator of such. kidd needs a slightly more movement in the offense to be effective, much like steve nash.
but more importantly (to suns fans), this trade lowers the mavs ability to compete with the suns. for years the two places to attack the suns were at the rim and at the point. nash just cannot effectively defense quick pgs. harris in particular gave him fits. nash just couldn't stay in front of him. replacing harris with kidd means much less of an issue for nash, which in turn means less help defense necessary. and with kidd shooting in the 30 - 35% range, nash WILL sag considerably off him. our defense just got a lot better against the mavs.
and the second prong is a new twist for the suns . . . and it's shaq-based. the loss of diop means one less big body in the post to defend against shaq. it means its ericka dampier or no one against shaq. and we all know what shaq thinks of ericka. this leaves the mavs with ericka, dirk, and bass as their only post defenders, and two of those cannot even hope to defend shaq, and those two also will never be effective on amare. damp and diop had some limited success against amare due to their size, but now they won't be covering amare . . . dirk and bass will be. advantage suns. big time.
so while this trade may be overall in dallas' interest, it weakens them against the suns. imho.
