Kliff comments on Murray

[Shane]

Let’s face it. There isn’t a person on this board who wouldn’t take Murray right now if we knew he was the next Patrick mahomes and that’s not even knowing if mahomes is the real deal yet. Imagine Murray with Fitz, DJ, Kirk and maybe Hollywood Brown or Harry and perhaps Fant. We also have options to add to our o-line before the season starts. Could cause quite an offensive stir. Of course this is adding a Mahomes type performance from Murray. Mahomes success was a direct result of having a plethoras of talent around him. If we go with Murray then we have to go all in.

But he is not Patrick Mahomes

 

[slanidrac16]

Whoa man, gutsy take there!

I'm pretty sure every fan in the NFL right now would take any player who was going to have Mahomes' year.

The point is, we don't know at all.

If we go all in on Murray we better go all in on getting him the weopons around him to succeed. Who is our Tyreek hill? How about Hollywood Brown. Who is our Travis Kelce? How about Fant. Those players are out there and we need to find a way to get them. We cannot think chad Williams is going to be a game changer. Clay is an improvement and maybe rsj will blossom but Fant could be dynamic especially allowing us to go into a 2 te set. We need to create an offensive mismatch on every play if we want to get everything out of Murray’s ability.

 

[BW52]

Okay. I could see how someone might look at it like that.

But Baker had something to prove. His #1 draft status was in doubt until the last minute. Kyler does (did) not. His #1 draft status was decided by his pro day.

You can say I'm spinning it, but, when you read the following, doesn't it sound like Murray is playing it smart?

Freshman year - played at TAMU, was up and down in a dysfunctional program.

Sophomore year - transferred away from a bad situation, and to a good one at OU, where he sat behind the eventual Heisman winner for that year. Learning from the touchdown maker, and soaking in the teachings of Riley. Played well in mop up duty.

Junior year - The best overall (rushing/passing) year by a QB ever Solar.

Senior year: Chose to forego it with millions waiting in either baseball or football.

Combine: Proved the "less than 5-10"ers wrong, but deferred running and throwing until his pro-day.

Pro-day: By this time, he knew the die had been cast Solar, so he threw, but avoided risking injury by running. No upside what-so-ever to running a 40 then sir. None. Why risk it?

In hindsight, and perhaps because I have crimson colored glasses on, all his behavior seems rational, and logical.

One more thing Solar....

His lack of starts... have you ever considered that, because limited time as a starter, he might still have some room to grow as a QB? That he might not yet have reached his ceiling as a passer sir?

What a chilling thought that must be for NFL defensive coordinators not named Joseph.

The preceding promotional advertisement was brought to you all by the president of the Kyler Murray fan club.

 

[slanidrac16]

But he is not Patrick Mahomes

we didn’t know Patrick Mahomes was Patrick Mahomes until last year except for Andy Reid. I’ll roll with Murray if that’s what we do. But if we do keim better be smart enough to load up on offensive weapons and not rely on Kevin White or Chad Williams or that suddenly RSJ is the next Zack Ertz. Murray will need an offensive mismatch on every play to succeed If he is indeed is to be successful. I’m just coming to grips with the fact that Murray is going to be our guy.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

The preceding promotional advertisement was brought to you all by the president of the Kyler Murray fan club.

I remember about month ago how you said I was "hyperbolizing crazily". What a great line that was man.. I will never forget that.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Not interested in even engaging the argument that playing on one of the best coached teams in football with extremely superior talent around you is a little concerning?

I played flag football with some 15 year old kids and my old high school QB/DE that played at Michigan the other day, you'd be amazed at how often he was open by 9 yards. I'm about Kyler Murray's size.

No one used that argument last year for Baker Mayfield who had essentially the same team.

Yeah screw Montana! He had a great team around him

 

[Crimson Warrior]

@Crimson Warrior, I get your excitement. I've said in other posts, I really understand wanting the guy that is the unequivocal truth, the dynamic player that changes the sport.

You're just rationalizing away so many enormous red flags like they never existed. I'll never question that Kyler isn't playing it smart, but I don't think that the Cardinals are playing it smart. It is 100% this kid's mission in life to maximize his money, grow the hype, and then if all else fails, stumble back into baseball where his athletic ability will get him a the kind of money I can't dream of.

"Best overall" stats don't count to me, not in the college game. I love Donnel Pumphrey, but he's FBS' leading rusher of all time, and you probably don't know where he plays right now.

Murray being 5'10 instead of 5'8 doesn't change that he's still way too short for the position, and short enough to get me passed over on Tinder.

Pro-Day? Die is cast? That's the same thing Doctor Octopus said when he took over as Spider-Man, and Peter Parker is Spidey again.

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Murray might grow as a player, maybe. But the evidence says he isn't going to physically grow, and I'm not willing to believe you guys who think that the tape proves he's going to evade every NFL defender for all of time.

Nice post. You write well sir. And you're pretty reasonable too. And great memory for the spider man reference Solar. I'm a Marvel guy also.

I won't deny you've made some good points during the Murray debate. Some valid points. Murray represents a risk. Bosa has a higher floor I think. Bosa's going to give you at least five or six solid years on the DL, more barring injury. Rosen might still turn out to be great.

But you did mention something central to pro-murray side's thinking. We have a fair amount of confidence, a belief, that Murray really is that unicorn type player that can turn our franchise around.

I'm not guaranteeing it by any means. I'll even say that I think there's a chance that Murray fails completely. It's hard to play QB in the NFL Solar.

But I can also see the incredible velocity on his throws, and his way-above-average accuracy. I've seen him move safeties with his eyes, and calmly go through his progressions many, many times.

He's skilled Solar. I mean, really, really skilled as a QB. That's not opinion. That's fact. The stats, analytics, and tape all overwhelmingly prove it.

And then there's the freakish athleticism. Again, not opinion man. It's right there for everybody to see.

Anti-murray guys offer a lot of arguments that, at least to me, don't change these two over-arching reasons to draft him.

You say "height!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "durability!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "NFL defenses!". Okay, maybe Solar. Maybe.

And I do rationalize some things about the kid. I'm a homer, I admit it.

But please understand that, at the end of the day, the pro murray guys are basing their opinion mostly on his immense skill as a QB, and his incredible athleticism. To us, that's what makes Murray worth the gamble.

We feel like the empirical evidence is on our side. By a lot.

 

[GatorAZ]

If we go all in on Murray we better go all in on getting him the weopons around him to succeed. Who is our Tyreek hill? How about Hollywood Brown. Who is our Travis Kelce? How about Fant. Those players are out there and we need to find a way to get them. We cannot think chad Williams is going to be a game changer. Clay is an improvement and maybe rsj will blossom but Fant could be dynamic especially allowing us to go into a 2 te set. We need to create an offensive mismatch on every play if we want to get everything out of Murray’s ability.

Give me Jeffrey Simmons over those guys. We still need an elite guy in the front-7 even if it takes an extra year. Plenty of pass catchers will be available in the 3-4 rounds.

 

[Krangodnzr]

But he is not Patrick Mahomes

Yeah he has almost as good an arm but is a substantially better athlete coming into the NFL.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Nice post. You write well sir. And you're pretty reasonable too. And great memory for the spider man reference Solar. I'm a Marvel guy also.

I won't deny you've made some good points during the Murray debate. Some valid points. Murray represents a risk. Bosa has a higher floor I think. Bosa's going to give you at least five or six solid years on the DL, more barring injury. Rosen might still turn out to be great.

But you did mention something central to pro-murray side's thinking. We have a fair amount of confidence, a belief, that Murray really is that unicorn type player that can turn our franchise around.

I'm not guaranteeing it by any means. I'll even say that I think there's a chance that Murray fails completely. It's hard to play QB in the NFL Solar.

But I can also see the incredible velocity on his throws, and his way-above-average accuracy. I've seen him move safeties with his eyes, and calmly go through his progressions many, many times.

He's skilled Solar. I mean, really, really skilled as a QB. That's not opinion. That's fact. The stats, analytics, and tape all overwhelmingly prove it.

And then there's the freakish athleticism. Again, not opinion man. It's right there for everybody to see.

Anti-murray guys offer a lot of arguments that, at least to me, don't change these two over-arching reasons to draft him.

You say "height!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "durability!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "NFL defenses!". Okay, maybe Solar. Maybe.

And I do rationalize some things about the kid. I'm a homer, I admit it.

But please understand that, at the end of the day, the pro murray guys are basing their opinion mostly on his immense skill as a QB, and his incredible athleticism. To us, that's what makes Murray worth the gamble.

We feel like the empirical evidence is on our side. By a lot.

Preach on. Everything thing you say is factual.

They are going to counter that his third grade teacher said he said "fark!" during recess so you just know there are character concerns! Hes a scratch badminton player, so the first sign if trouble hes bolting the NFL!

 

[Solar7]

Nice post. You write well sir. And you're pretty reasonable too. And great memory for the spider man reference Solar. I'm a Marvel guy also.

I won't deny you've made some good points during the Murray debate. Some valid points. Murray represents a risk. Bosa has a higher floor I think. Bosa's going to give you at least five or six solid years on the DL, more barring injury. Rosen might still turn out to be great.

But you did mention something central to pro-murray side's thinking. We have a fair amount of confidence, a belief, that Murray really is that unicorn type player that can turn our franchise around.

I'm not guaranteeing it by any means. I'll even say that I think there's a chance that Murray fails completely. It's hard to play QB in the NFL Solar.

But I can also see the incredible velocity on his throws, and his way-above-average accuracy. I've seen him move safeties with his eyes, and calmly go through his progressions many, many times.

He's skilled Solar. I mean, really, really skilled as a QB. That's not opinion. That's fact. The stats, analytics, and tape all overwhelmingly prove it.

And then there's the freakish athleticism. Again, not opinion man. It's right there for everybody to see.

Anti-murray guys offer a lot of arguments that, at least to me, don't change these two over-arching reasons to draft him.

You say "height!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "durability!". But has that stopped him so far?

You say "NFL defenses!". Okay, maybe Solar. Maybe.

And I do rationalize some things about the kid. I'm a homer, I admit it.

But please understand that, at the end of the day, the pro murray guys are basing their opinion mostly on his immense skill as a QB, and his incredible athleticism. To us, that's what makes Murray worth the gamble.

We feel like the empirical evidence is on our side. By a lot.

Thanks, Excelsior!

I've been a major homer in my life too. I once told all of my buddies in college that Matt Leinart's the only guy I'd let hook up with my girlfriend.

Hot damn, would that real NFL unicorn be cool, right? That's why the #1 overall pick is so alluring. Imagine if we'd had it in years past!? What could have changed!? The pitfalls, the possibilities... Y'know, I even think Murray might be pretty good. I accept that Rosen might suck.

But the problem is that you keep calling this "fact." His skill in the college game is undeniable. But players falter when the talent against them steps the game up. He's more athletic then I'll ever be, he throws a pretty ball, he has elite speed. I won't deny it. But is his mind in the game?

"Height, durability," those factors... the guy doesn't have enough of a sample size for me to tell you that they're worth ignoring.

I'm terrified we lose him to injury, bad attitude, baseball, or whatever.

We've agreed on the concept, but not at all on the evidence. We're gonna have this fight for another few weeks, I'd guess.

 

[Jetstream Green]

But he is not Patrick Mahomes

I do not see him as a Mahomes type or Russel Wison but more in keeping with Watson if successful, ultimately he is Murray and nobody else but that sample size is so small we just really do have an idea but the percentages say do not draft him. I might kid about him and call him a midget but only because it makes it extra funny because the flip side is he's dynamic as all get out. If one believes in Rosen like I still do, then Murray does not seem like the right choice. If one does not believe in Rosen, then I can see that Murray is a great prospect but then why not also consider Haskins? If you think both QBs are not any good, then you take a flyer later on a guy like Grier or Ta'amu but then see the reality of the ironic " let's suck again" for a better QB class

 

[Krangodnzr]

I do not see him as a Mahomes type or Russel Wison but more in keeping with Watson if successful, ultimately he is Murray and nobody else but that sample size is so small we just really do have an idea but the percentages say do not draft him. I might kid about him and call him a midget but only because it makes it extra funny because the flip side is he's dynamic as all get out. If one believes in Rosen like I still do, then Murray does not seem like the right choice. If one does not believe in Rosen, then I can see that Murray is a great prospect but then why not also consider Haskins? If you think both QBs are not any good, then you take a flyer later on a guy like Grier or Ta'amu but then see the reality of the ironic " let's suck again" for a better QB class

Haskins is a decent player, but he has some major mechanical problems with his game. He tends to throw with his arm, and has poor velocity at times. Really good decisionmaking though.

Why not Haskins? See above and hes not the dynamic player that Murray is. If they were the same height, asking why not Haskins would be a ridiculous question.

 

[GuernseyCard]

If we go all in on Murray we better go all in on getting him the weopons around him to succeed. Who is our Tyreek hill? How about Hollywood Brown. Who is our Travis Kelce? How about Fant. Those players are out there and we need to find a way to get them. We cannot think chad Williams is going to be a game changer. Clay is an improvement and maybe rsj will blossom but Fant could be dynamic especially allowing us to go into a 2 te set. We need to create an offensive mismatch on every play if we want to get everything out of Murray’s ability.

Here's a thought: trade down to Oakland so they can pick Bosa and we can get all those pieces for Rosen.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Yeah he has almost as good an arm but is a substantially better athlete coming into the NFL.

50 TDs .. Here we come!

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Thanks, Excelsior!

I've been a major homer in my life too. I once told all of my buddies in college that Matt Leinart's the only guy I'd let hook up with my girlfriend.

Hot damn, would that real NFL unicorn be cool, right? That's why the #1 overall pick is so alluring. Imagine if we'd had it in years past!? What could have changed!? The pitfalls, the possibilities... Y'know, I even think Murray might be pretty good. I accept that Rosen might suck.

But the problem is that you keep calling this "fact." His skill in the college game is undeniable. But players falter when the talent against them steps the game up. He's more athletic then I'll ever be, he throws a pretty ball, he has elite speed. I won't deny it. But is his mind in the game?

"Height, durability," those factors... the guy doesn't have enough of a sample size for me to tell you that they're worth ignoring.

I'm terrified we lose him to injury, bad attitude, baseball, or whatever.

We've agreed on the concept, but not at all on the evidence. We're gonna have this fight for another few weeks, I'd guess.

Would that everyone in this community were as thoughtful and gracious as you. It speaks well of your upbringing sir.

As for the next few weeks? I've found that I reach an equilibrium with most posters (e.g. BW52, TJ, and Shane, (but not that awful @GuernseyCard) ), and I think that's where you and I are at. Both positions clearly stated and understood, so no need to belabor the point. Maybe just a little back and forth on some of the finer points of the matter.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not interested in even engaging the argument that playing on one of the best coached teams in football with extremely superior talent around you is a little concerning?

I played flag football with some 15 year old kids and my old high school QB/DE that played at Michigan the other day, you'd be amazed at how often he was open by 9 yards. I'm about Kyler Murray's size.

Man this is consistently the worst argument made against Murray on this board considering the proximity and similarity of mayfield.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Man this is consistently the worst argument made against Murray on this board considering the proximity and similarity of mayfield.

Yep, we have a known success story under LITERALLY the same circumstances.

The most compelling argument? Lack of career starts, but with the success of Trubisky, you have to wonder if that's overstated as well.

Last year everyone discounted Mayfield because of the system he played in AND his size....not because of, you know, actual performance.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Picture of what Murray will look like along aside the Oline

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[Krangodnzr]

Greg Cossells scouting report on Murray.

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[slanidrac16]

Here's a thought: trade down to Oakland so they can pick Bosa and we can get all those pieces for Rosen.

Yep. We do this and we could still end up with Murray. Not saying that’s what we should do. But at least we would have parlayed the first pick into a couple or three extra picks.

 

[mwanamatapa]

Greg Cossells scouting report on Murray.

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Love Greg Cossells' takes on players. I read he has Murray rated as the number one QB in this draft marginally ahead of Dwayne Haskins.

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[Krangodnzr]

Love Greg Cossells' takes on players. I read he has Murray rated as the number one QB in this draft marginally ahead of Dwayne Haskins.

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He says Haskins needs to sit first, not ready to play right away.

Haskins is a bit of an arm thrower at times, meaning his footwork can be atrocious. He loses velocity because of his poor footwork.

Just like Murray, there is a problem projecting Haskins into an NFL offense because he threw so many short passes. OSUs offense was predicated on short throws to fast wideouts who made plays in space.

I have the same, but much lesser concern about Haskins that I had with Blaine Gabbert. Yeah he put up numbers, but alot of the yards were gained after the catch.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yep, we have a known success story under LITERALLY the same circumstances.

The most compelling argument? Lack of career starts, but with the success of Trubisky, you have to wonder if that's overstated as well.

Last year everyone discounted Mayfield because of the system he played in AND his size....not because of, you know, actual performance.

Yup. I look at Murray’s downsides as:

1. Size - this is the strongest argument but not because we’ve seen it hinder him, we’ve not seen that. But because it makes him an outlier and outliers are outliers for a reason.

2. Limited data set - I think this is somewhat weakened by the strength of that data and of recent success of Trubisky.

3. Baseball - he does have an out which many players do not. But he’s chosen football and had to give $$$ back to mlb. So you have to think football is likely his passion.

4. System and competition - these arguments are just hot garbage and I’ve been arguing that from the beginning.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Picture of what Murray will look like along aside the Oline

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Except sproles is 4inches shorter than Murray, so not accurate in even the most stretchiest of stretches.