Kolb is shot already

cardsfanmd

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The Whisenhunt system has now produced 17 losses in the last 23 games. 5 different QBs have failed to average even a 60% completion rate. With a record like that he deserves to be criticized in just about any fashion. Sarcasm, Tirades, Exaggeration.....

Of course if you would like to enlighten us as to why the CKW system is so great we're all eyes.
Because he's coached two teams to Super Bowls and given us the only winning seasons of my lifetime. I'm not crowning the guy as the best coach in the league but I still have faith in him to be successful. There were no great QB prospects to be had last offseason so the team ponied up and got who they (and Fitz) thought was the best of the bunch because they knew if they didn't they wouldn't be able to re-sign him. If they couldn't do that, half of the fan base would quit call us the same old Cards and quit on the team, the media would mock us, players would start to hate again and eventually we would be the same old Cards IMO. Same reason, but on a bigger scale, we re-signed ADub to that ridiculous deal a few years ago.
 

82CardsGrad

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Because he's coached two teams to Super Bowls and given us the only winning seasons of my lifetime. I'm not crowning the guy as the best coach in the league but I still have faith in him to be successful. There were no great QB prospects to be had last offseason so the team ponied up and got who they (and Fitz) thought was the best of the bunch because they knew if they didn't they wouldn't be able to re-sign him. If they couldn't do that, half of the fan base would quit call us the same old Cards and quit on the team, the media would mock us, players would start to hate again and eventually we would be the same old Cards IMO. Same reason, but on a bigger scale, we re-signed ADub to that ridiculous deal a few years ago.

He did?? :shrug:
 

Zeno

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Yes. Pittsburgh and Arizona.

Well I will give you AZ but he was just on the staff at Pittsburgh...following the logic that he "coached" them to the Super Bowl would be like giving Dennis Green credit for coaching the 49ers to the Super Bowl in Jan of 1989 because he was on the staff.
 

dreamcastrocks

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Well I will give you AZ but he was just on the staff at Pittsburgh...following the logic that he "coached" them to the Super Bowl would be like giving Dennis Green credit for coaching the 49ers to the Super Bowl in Jan of 1989 because he was on the staff.

Hmmm... never realized he was the Head Coach in Pitt... :mulli:

Offensive Coordinator is a coaching position. He never said head coach.
 

82CardsGrad

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Offensive Coordinator is a coaching position. He never said head coach.


Semantics... he said "coached two teams to Super Bowls". I can't say I often hear that being said about Offensive Coordinators or any Assistant Coach.
But, sure... he was on a team that went to a Super Bowl when with Pitt. Something not many other Assistant Coaches can claim, huh? ;)
 

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Because he's coached two teams to Super Bowls and given us the only winning seasons of my lifetime. I'm not crowning the guy as the best coach in the league but I still have faith in him to be successful. There were no great QB prospects to be had last offseason so the team ponied up and got who they (and Fitz) thought was the best of the bunch because they knew if they didn't they wouldn't be able to re-sign him. If they couldn't do that, half of the fan base would quit call us the same old Cards and quit on the team, the media would mock us, players would start to hate again and eventually we would be the same old Cards IMO. Same reason, but on a bigger scale, we re-signed ADub to that ridiculous deal a few years ago.

None of that explains why his system is so great. Only that he went to the SB with two veteran teams.

So far only 1 of 7 QBs has been able to run it. The Cards are right back to where they've always been, 5-11, 4-12, and the bad QBs look worse than bad trying to run the offense. They can't get their star receiver open or make teams pay for concentrating on Fitz and they can't protect the QB.

That doesn't look like a successful system to me. Is it too complex I don't know? Because I haven't seen anyone really explain in detail what the Cardinals are trying to do offensively.
 

dreamcastrocks

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None of that explains why his system is so great. Only that he went to the SB with two veteran teams.

So far only 1 of 7 QBs has been able to run it. The Cards are right back to where they've always been, 5-11, 4-12, and the bad QBs look worse than bad trying to run the offense. They can't get their star receiver open or make teams pay for concentrating on Fitz and they can't protect the QB.

That doesn't look like a successful system to me. Is it too complex I don't know? Because I haven't seen anyone really explain in detail what the Cardinals are trying to do offensively.

The Cards truly are a team without an identity which is a huge problem. This team should be all about setting up Beanie and then Fitz with the playaction pass.
 

82CardsGrad

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None of that explains why his system is so great. Only that he went to the SB with two veteran teams.

So far only 1 of 7 QBs has been able to run it. The Cards are right back to where they've always bee, 5-11, 4-12, and the bad QBs look worse than bad trying to run the offense. They can't get their star receiver open or make teams pay for concentrating on Fitz and they can't protect the QB.

That doesn't look like a successful system to me. Is it too complex I don't know? Because I haven't seen anyone really explain in detail what the Cardinals are trying to do offensively.


Actually - in its' simplest form, all this means is that Whiz has been lucky to have been on teams that possessed Hall of Fame quarterbacks who, by themselves, were/are capable of leading offenses to heights not otherwise acheiveable with any other mere mortal QB.
Even if you go back and look at the '05 Steeler team that beat Seattle in that Super Bowl, the offense was nothing special and was actually ranked 15th in yards.
Honestly, aside from the Warner years, I don't see anything past or present that would suggest Whiz is some sort of offensive guru. Nothing...
 

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He called the offensive plays for a super bowl winning team. I know everyone is minimizing his impact because of the past two years. But I think we can at least give him credit where it is due.
 

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I agree that he is pretty much done for this season. However, I do believe that he is a good QB...not great...just good. If, the Cards can get him a better O-line next season, a solid #2 WR, and he has had a full season to grasp the offense, he should improve.

The only QB capable of looking good behind an O-line this bad would be a hall of fame type guy. Kolb is not going to be that, so you have to protect him. And that is just not happening.

You may have that turned around. Perhaps a good QB would make the OL look a lot better. How about a QB with a quick release who is not running all over the place which leaves the OL with not knowing where to protect. A QB who is smart enough to recognize where the pressure is coming from and who is somewhat accurate. I think he is around 50% on accuracy. You need to be above 60% to be a starting NFL QB. We often blame the OL or the DBs for problems that are really created by the QB. I do not think Kurt Warner had any better OL than what we have now but he knew how to get rid of the ball fast and read defenses and would stand in the pocket and take the hit. He was really good at reading a defense and calling a play at the line to overcome the pass rush or blitzes. He would make the defense pay. That does not describe Kolb. He is a 28 year old rookie who will be 29 next year. How old is Cam Newton? He will in one year have passed Kolb in ever facet of the game and Kolb has been in the NFL for 6 or 7 years but never managed to be a regular starter. Why is that?
 
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splitsecond

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The Cards truly are a team without an identity which is a huge problem. This team should be all about setting up Beanie and then Fitz with the playaction pass.

I would like to think if we had R Williams too this year we would see that play action more often, but lets be honest, we wouldn't. I don't know what Whiz/Miller have against it.
 

splitsecond

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You may have that turned around. Perhaps a good QB would make the OL look a lot better. How about a QB with a quick release who is not running all over the place which leaves the OL with not knowing where to protect. A QB who is smart enough to recognize where the pressure is coming from and who is somewhat accurate. I think he is around 50% on accuracy. You need to be above 60% to be a starting NFL QB. We often blame the OL or the DBs for problems that are really created by the QB. I do not think Kurt Warner had any better OL than what we have now but he knew how to get rid of the ball fast and read defenses and would stand in the pocket and take the hit. That does not describe Kolb.

Exactly. The OL was in some ways much worse, but Warner was the master of making teams pay for blitzing. Kolb is the exact opposite. So he can move around and extend the play, but that doesn't stop teams from blitzing, especially against our Jr High level OTs.
 

cardsfanmd

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Well I will give you AZ but he was just on the staff at Pittsburgh...following the logic that he "coached" them to the Super Bowl would be like giving Dennis Green credit for coaching the 49ers to the Super Bowl in Jan of 1989 because he was on the staff.

Hmmm... never realized he was the Head Coach in Pitt... :mulli:

yeah guys good call, I never realized Whiz wasn't the hc in Pitt :sarcasm: So you don't think assistants, let alone coordinators, mean anything to the team? I guess you're right, Buddy Ryan as a coordinator never did anything. Mike Martz had zero to do with the gsot. While I recognize that the d was the strength of Pitts SB, Whiz's o made big plays throughout the playoffs, and was great with ball control and rushing every year he was there.


None of that explains why his system is so great. Only that he went to the SB with two veteran teams.

So far only 1 of 7 QBs has been able to run it. The Cards are right back to where they've always been, 5-11, 4-12, and the bad QBs look worse than bad trying to run the offense. They can't get their star receiver open or make teams pay for concentrating on Fitz and they can't protect the QB.

That doesn't look like a successful system to me. Is it too complex I don't know? Because I haven't seen anyone really explain in detail what the Cardinals are trying to do offensively.
 

82CardsGrad

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yeah guys good call, I never realized Whiz wasn't the hc in Pitt :sarcasm: So you don't think assistants, let alone coordinators, mean anything to the team? I guess you're right, Buddy Ryan as a coordinator never did anything. Mike Martz had zero to do with the gsot. While I recognize that the d was the strength of Pitts SB, Whiz's o made big plays throughout the playoffs, and was great with ball control and rushing every year he was there.

Of course not... assistants are very important. However, I would never say that an offensive coordinator "coached a team to a super bowl". And, particularly in Whiz's case, you can actually make an argument that Pitt won that Super Bowl in spite of Whiz! ;)
 

Totally_Red

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Of course not... assistants are very important. However, I would never say that an offensive coordinator "coached a team to a super bowl". And, particularly in Whiz's case, you can actually make an argument that Pitt won that Super Bowl in spite of Whiz! ;)

If given exceptional talent, Whis is smart enough to get the most out of it. When given mediocre or worse talent, he isn't an offensive genius that can achieve miracles. He helped coach up Kurt Warner to lessen his chronic fumbling and ball security issues and get him to play at a HOF level. He has a much bigger job with Kevin Kolb. His real test comes in the 2012 offseason when he really needs to maximize Kolb's ability and upgrade the personnel around him.

This season is lost. The coming offseason is his "Do or die" test IMO.
 

conraddobler

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If given exceptional talent, Whis is smart enough to get the most out of it. When given mediocre or worse talent, he isn't an offensive genius that can achieve miracles. He helped coach up Kurt Warner to lessen his chronic fumbling and ball security issues and get him to play at a HOF level. He has a much bigger job with Kevin Kolb. His real test comes in the 2012 offseason when he really needs to maximize Kolb's ability and upgrade the personnel around him.

This season is lost. The coming offseason is his "Do or die" test IMO.

I'll be practicing my thumbs down moves.
 

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yeah guys good call, I never realized Whiz wasn't the hc in Pitt :sarcasm: So you don't think assistants, let alone coordinators, mean anything to the team? I guess you're right, Buddy Ryan as a coordinator never did anything. Mike Martz had zero to do with the gsot. While I recognize that the d was the strength of Pitts SB, Whiz's o made big plays throughout the playoffs, and was great with ball control and rushing every year he was there.

Well I don't think great assistant automatically means good head coach...his being an assistant in Pittsburgh on a good staff doesn't mean he is the answer at head coach here...the 2 guys you use above are living proof of that, or Wade Phillips or Steve Mariucci or Chan Gailey or Romeo Crennell or the list goes on and on.

His success as a head coach and competency is measured only by what he has done in that position. His teams have been a huge failure the past 2 seasons an his decisions HAVE to be questioned.
 

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Well I don't think great assistant automatically means good head coach...his being an assistant in Pittsburgh on a good staff doesn't mean he is the answer at head coach here...the 2 guys you use above are living proof of that, or Wade Phillips or Steve Mariucci or Chan Gailey or Romeo Crennell or the list goes on and on.

His success as a head coach and competency is measured only by what he has done in that position. His teams have been a huge failure the past 2 seasons an his decisions HAVE to be questioned.

Exactly. I highly doubt the offense that CKW is attempting to run this season bears any resemblence to what he ran with BenR 7 years ago.

So I'm still waiting to read why CKW's system, in 2011, is so great.
 

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Kolb has looked overly-skittish ever since he took that huge hit on the bomb to Fitz in week 2. It's gotten so bad that he's starting to go down or turn backwards before he gets hit, like he did on the no look pass to Doucet for a first down and his interception.

One of the main problems with the system Whis runs is that it requires QBs to take an inordinate amount of hits. As we've all witnessed many times, he loves to send everyone out and have the QB get rid of the ball right before they gets blasted. Very few QBs are wired to fit that sort of system, and forcing a QB into it can have grave results on their psyche. It's why Whis loved Max Hall so much. The guy was willing to take an inhuman amount of punishment, even though he lacked the skills of even a backup QB. But, eventually, Hall went into self-preservation mode and started checking down more, so Whis lost interest. #7 had his flaws when he got here, but a lack of confidence wasn't one of them. He bordered on over-confident most of the time. A couple years with Whis seemed to tear him down completely.

Until Whis gets his hands on another throwback, future hall of famer like Warner or a physical freak of nature like Big Ben, I think any QB is going to struggle to take the kind of punishment this system requires. Cam Newton would fit into the freak of nature category. Kevin Kolb isn't close to fitting into either of them.
 

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As everyone should know I'm a big believer in the reason for the Cards being so pitiful this season is that the players will play great one play and then look like jugheads the next. And its equal opportunity screw ups instead of one or two guys doing it all the time.

Here is a perfect example of what I am talking about:

After Fitz 66 yard catch and run the play sequence went like this:

1st down Running play to the left and Hadnot pulls to the left and runs into Jeff King who is running to the right so no guard leading the play and no gain.

2nd Down: Kolb throws a good pass to Doucet who drops it.

3rd Down: Levi whiffs on Suggs and Kolb is sacked.
 

AsUpRoDiGy

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Kolb has looked overly-skittish ever since he took that huge hit on the bomb to Fitz in week 2. It's gotten so bad that he's starting to go down or turn backwards before he gets hit, like he did on the no look pass to Doucet for a first down and his interception.

One of the main problems with the system Whis runs is that it requires QBs to take an inordinate amount of hits. As we've all witnessed many times, he loves to send everyone out and have the QB get rid of the ball right before they gets blasted. Very few QBs are wired to fit that sort of system, and forcing a QB into it can have grave results on their psyche. It's why Whis loved Max Hall so much. The guy was willing to take an inhuman amount of punishment, even though he lacked the skills of even a backup QB. But, eventually, Hall went into self-preservation mode and started checking down more, so Whis lost interest. #7 had his flaws when he got here, but a lack of confidence wasn't one of them. He bordered on over-confident most of the time. A couple years with Whis seemed to tear him down completely.

Until Whis gets his hands on another throwback, future hall of famer like Warner or a physical freak of nature like Big Ben, I think any QB is going to struggle to take the kind of punishment this system requires. Cam Newton would fit into the freak of nature category. Kevin Kolb isn't close to fitting into either of them.
Good Points. The significant problem with Whisenhunt, is that he thinks his "system works" for everyone, when that's not even close to being true.
 

cardpa

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Because he's coached two teams to Super Bowls and given us the only winning seasons of my lifetime. I'm not crowning the guy as the best coach in the league but I still have faith in him to be successful. There were no great QB prospects to be had last offseason so the team ponied up and got who they (and Fitz) thought was the best of the bunch because they knew if they didn't they wouldn't be able to re-sign him. If they couldn't do that, half of the fan base would quit call us the same old Cards and quit on the team, the media would mock us, players would start to hate again and eventually we would be the same old Cards IMO. Same reason, but on a bigger scale, we re-signed ADub to that ridiculous deal a few years ago.

Delusional!
 

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