KT Gone to Seattle

azirish

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Well now, we ended up getting rid of a ton of picks (with that many, the chances of throwing poop on a list and hitting one good player is pretty good), one of our 'rotation' guys, and the only really good interior defender we had outside of Amare. In return, we have a vet who is always getting injured and clearly on the downside of his career. So far, we have moved backwards from the team we were last year. Unless something changes, and quick, we won't advance past the first round.

How god-awfully FRUSTRATING it is to be a Sun's fan this offseason. Money, money, money, blah, blah, blah. Just sack up, front office, and say 'screw you, we want to raise our profit margin at the risk of winning'.

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but it is worth noting that the Suns are set to pay the second highest level of luxury tax in the NBA. (Dallas has a higher regular salary strucuture, but does not pay LT on the Finley contract). If the Suns are excessively cheap, then there are at least 27 other teams that are even cheaper.

The Suns real problem is their inability to find big men with the speed and skills to play their style. It is really hard when the only guy who is qualified gets $22 million a year before a trade kicker.
 

fordronken

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So far, we have moved backwards from the team we were last year. Unless something changes, and quick, we won't advance past the first round.

So, if we lose Amare for a season we make it to the conference finals. If we lose KT, we won't get out of the first round.

This has to be one of the most over reacted to moves in years. This is nowhere near the mistakes of not offering JJ the extension and trading the Chicago pick. The biggest problem with this move is the lack of protection on the 2010 pick, although that could end up being pretty irrelevant as well. People need to relax.

Kurt Thomas would only have been relevant in the playoffs against the Spurs or the Jazz, and in either case would only have played 20 minutes a game. That's the truth, and if you think it stinks, then you should take it up with Mike D'Antoni. No business man in the world thinks a player who would get those kind of minutes is worth 16 million dollars. There's just no way. D'Antoni also said that he thought he played KT too much. So he may have cut his minutes down to around 10 or 15 a game. The reaction to this move is getting absurd.
 

Chaplin

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So, if we lose Amare for a season we make it to the conference finals. If we lose KT, we won't get out of the first round.

This has to be one of the most over reacted to moves in years. This is nowhere near the mistakes of not offering JJ the extension and trading the Chicago pick. The biggest problem with this move is the lack of protection on the 2010 pick, although that could end up being pretty irrelevant as well. People need to relax.

Kurt Thomas would only have been relevant in the playoffs against the Spurs or the Jazz, and in either case would only have played 20 minutes a game. That's the truth, and if you think it stinks, then you should take it up with Mike D'Antoni. No business man in the world thinks a player who would get those kind of minutes is worth 16 million dollars. There's just no way. D'Antoni also said that he thought he played KT too much. So he may have cut his minutes down to around 10 or 15 a game. The reaction to this move is getting absurd.
You expected otherwise?

The fact is we still need some kind of presence down low--whether that's a plodder like KT is another question.
 

fordronken

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You expected otherwise?

The fact is we still need some kind of presence down low--whether that's a plodder like KT is another question.

We need another guy who can play those minutes if necessary. Maybe it's Marks, maybe not. I have no problem with the guy being worse than KT as long as the rest of the guys on the floor are better than the guys who would have been there last season. If the "bench" team performs better, then I'm happy. The fact is, KT would not have been in the closer rotation in a big game. D'Antoni wants his team smaller when the game matters most. That means you're going to see some combination of STAT/Diaw/Marion/Hill/Bell/Barbosa/Nash. KT wouldn't have made that lineup and neither will Marks, Banks, Tucker, Strawberry or PJ Brown.
 

elindholm

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So, if we lose Amare for a season we make it to the conference finals. If we lose KT, we won't get out of the first round.

Come on, ford. Last year's Suns were better than the 05-06 version. Those Suns were lucky to win two Game 7s and didn't have enough weapons to beat the lowly Mavericks.

Kurt Thomas would only have been relevant in the playoffs against the Spurs or the Jazz, and in either case would only have played 20 minutes a game.

How do you figure? He averaged 26 against the Spurs, and that was with the virtual DNP in Game 1.

That's the truth, and if you think it stinks, then you should take it up with Mike D'Antoni. No business man in the world thinks a player who would get those kind of minutes is worth 16 million dollars.

It's an artificial comparison, I'll admit, but how much is Roger Clemens making this season? It's the American way to overspend your budget for the opportunity to do something special. People who want to manage their money responsibly shouldn't be in pro sports -- heck, it's no secret that most teams lose money, so it's one of the least appealing investments out there.

Besides, which was a worse overpayment based on the Spurs series: Thomas for $16 million, or Marion for $25 million, which is his salary plus the amount over the luxury tax line?

D'Antoni also said that he thought he played KT too much. So he may have cut his minutes down to around 10 or 15 a game. The reaction to this move is getting absurd.

I could buy that argument if the Suns had made other movements to address their depth, but they've done the opposite. Eventually, you don't have the bodies even to field a team. Remember, D'Antoni also said that the Suns needed to get deeper. There's an imperfect correlation between what he says and what he does.

Right now the Suns have only seven players worthy of being considered for the rotation. The only way for that to work is if no one ever gets hurt, no one ever gets tired, and no one ever gets in foul trouble. Good luck.
 

SO91

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You overspend your budget for blue-chippers and quality players, not guys that spend large chunks of the season on the bench with an injury. I loved Kurt and what he brought to this team, and I agree with the many here that were dissapointed by this transaction, but he's not the key to a championship here. The Suns have overspent in the past for quality players (the 2-time MVP being an example), so while this move is dissapointing, it's not really the tragedy many have painted it to be.

BTW, it's one thing to overspend, and another to give away ridiculous contracts like the Yankees have (Pavano, Wright, Clemens to name a few)
 

scoutmasterdave

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The Suns have overspent in the past for quality players (the 2-time MVP being an example), so while this move is dissapointing, it's not really the tragedy many have painted it to be.
FWIW, you're probably the only Suns fan who thinks Steve Nash is overpaid. It may have looked like a reach when they signed him, but he's underpaid for what he brings to the table.
 

SO91

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Just to clarify, i dont't think he's overpaid, but at the time of the signing it sure looked like it. I should have been a little clearer about it in the first post
 

azirish

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The only guys who appear to be ovrepaid are Marion, Diaw, and Banks

Marion is overpaid, but the way the market is going not as much as we tend to assume. It's hard to get max money for a guy who is not a premier offensive player, but he is certainly an impact player in the right system.

Diaw's issue may be due in part ot his back problems or to playing out of position, but he is not a terrible player - just overpaid. If he played like he did in 2005-06 he'd be pretty close to value although IMHO still a bit overpaid. Besides being a key member of the rotation, he's a base year contract guy so all but impossible to trade except to give away.

Banks had a terrible year last season after a decent one with the Wolves in 2005-06. The team tried to trade him, but they still think he is very talented and capable of being a pretty good player. I'd expect he'll be shopped if he plays well during training camp.

The situation was simple. If the Suns absolutely had to get rid of someone with a bad contract; KT was the obvious choice. It would have cost more to get rid of Banks for less benefit, Marion is irreplaceable and Diaw is expected to return to form.

The remaining question is whether the Suns can replace what KT contributed. It feels like walking a tightrope without a wire, but it is not like they have to do it by Nov 1.
 

dreamcastrocks

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The situation was simple. If the Suns absolutely had to get rid of someone with a bad contract; KT was the obvious choice. It would have cost more to get rid of Banks for less benefit,

If KT took 2 unprotected 1st round picks to get the deal done, I can only imagine what Banks would have cost.
 

azirish

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If KT took 2 unprotected 1st round picks to get the deal done, I can only imagine what Banks would have cost.

In terms of immediate impact, KT gets $8 million and Banks $3.9 million. To get rid of Banks it would have cost both first round picks this year rather than over two seasons. Obviously the 2010 pick is a wildcard that could have come back to bite them, but the Suns can still plan on tanking in 2008-2009. :p
 

fordronken

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Come on, ford. Last year's Suns were better than the 05-06 version. Those Suns were lucky to win two Game 7s and didn't have enough weapons to beat the lowly Mavericks.

Lucky, gutsy, whatever you want to call it. But if you take last year's team, which is better, by your own admission, and you only remove Kurt Thomas, I don't see how that team loses in the first round unless Duncan gets hurt early in the season and the Spurs end up as a 7 or 8 seed.

How do you figure? He averaged 26 against the Spurs, and that was with the virtual DNP in Game 1.

Honestly, I think that 20 minutes is about what D'Antoni would play him next year if he were on the team. The problem with not having KT is in the likely event of Amare getting into foul trouble. But then, when Amare's in foul trouble, the team is in trouble. Remember game 3?

Now remember, I'm not saying that I don't think Kurt has a place on this team, I just think the trade makes a lot of sense. If I owned the Suns, I'm not sure I could turn down a 16 million dollar expense cut for what I thought D'Antoni would do with Kurt Thomas, if we faced the Spurs. Also, if I was the owner and my most trusted confidant was telling me how great Sean Marks is, I'd probably go, "for 16 million, it's worth a shot."

It's an artificial comparison, I'll admit, but how much is Roger Clemens making this season? It's the American way to overspend your budget for the opportunity to do something special. People who want to manage their money responsibly shouldn't be in pro sports -- heck, it's no secret that most teams lose money, so it's one of the least appealing investments out there.

Besides, which was a worse overpayment based on the Spurs series: Thomas for $16 million, or Marion for $25 million, which is his salary plus the amount over the luxury tax line?

Playing the Marion card is unfair. And I do believe that Marion is less overpaid. Also, Marion being overpaid is the reason we have to cut costs on guy like Thomas. Would you rather have dumped Marion for cap space and kept KT?

As for your other question, comparing it to baseball is ludicrous. You're comparing the Phoenix Suns to what I believe is the highest spending team in sports history, with no salary cap. They are trying to win a championship, which they haven't done since 2000 (I believe), yet have been spending vast amounts of money every year. The Dodgers and Red Sox spend a ton of money and that doesn't seem to do it either. All it does is keep you competetive, as long as there's no salary cap. If there is one, it just straps your franchise. Although I will admit that keeping KT wouldn't have done that, since he was in the last year of his deal.

Again, I'd love to have an owner who would just spend the money and not give a crap, but we don't have one. I don't think any team other than the Knicks and maybe the Mavs would have been willing to spend 16 mil on KT with this coach, if there was a deal on the table to remove it.

I could buy that argument if the Suns had made other movements to address their depth, but they've done the opposite. Eventually, you don't have the bodies even to field a team. Remember, D'Antoni also said that the Suns needed to get deeper. There's an imperfect correlation between what he says and what he does.

Right now the Suns have only seven players worthy of being considered for the rotation. The only way for that to work is if no one ever gets hurt, no one ever gets tired, and no one ever gets in foul trouble. Good luck.

Do I think the Suns have had a great offseason? Heck no. Do I think we can still win the championship with this team? Yes. But this "now we're screwed because we traded Kurt Thomas" mentality which has been growing over the last few days is just plain silly.
 

elindholm

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Last year was their best chance and they knew it. I think the attitude was, blow the bankroll for one good shot, win or lose. Well, they lost, and that was that.

This team isn't winning a title. You can write that in your diary, lock it up, and throw away the key. The front office already knows it, now the players know it, and soon the fans will know it. They'll be fun and exciting and they'll make enough noise in the playoffs to say they were "close," but they aren't getting there. I wouldn't take this team at 30 to 1 for next year's title.

When is the last time that a team that was at worst third in the league decided to "reload" by dumping several draft picks and half of their competent big men? Never, that's when.

Next year's rotation is a joke. The three bigs are Stoudemire, Marion, and Diaw -- in other words, a PF with bad knees, a SF who is afraid of contact, and the league's softest Euro, who doesn't even have a position. The SF rotation is a guy coming off of 57 major surgeries and either (a) a rookie who can't shoot or (b) a 6' 4" shooting guard. There is no backup PG. There is absolutely no significant problem of last year's team that has been addressed this summer. Every move has been either lateral or backwards.

Enjoy the regular season, guys. That's all we'll have next year.

Since it's now clear that the Thomas trade was the beginning of the end, this thread makes for a nostalgic read.
 

mojorizen7

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Short story:
I remember being stuck in a gridlock of rush hour traffic listening to Gambo & ash when news of this came down and at first i thought i'd heard:
KT/James Jones to Portland for 2 future 1st's and cash.
I thought, damn KT is gone,who's gonna defend the post?...but hell ,2 first rd picks are gonna be VERY NICE.
I switched off and when i got home i switched back on and everyone was in an uproar.....i nearly fell off my chair when i realized what Sarver had done.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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I think everyone reacted like that because no one could fathom selling the present and the future away for noting in return.


This truly was the beginning of the end.
 

Chaz

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Thank you for bringing up such a painful memory. While your at it why don't you just give me a nice paper cut and pour lemon juice on it?

I suspected they might do something like this and I knew it would piss me off, which it did.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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who the hell uber tagged this thread?!

did we really talk about roger clemens, chris webber, dale davis, jim rome and summer league?!?!
 

CaptainInsano

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Short story:
I remember being stuck in a gridlock of rush hour traffic listening to Gambo & ash when news of this came down and at first i thought i'd heard:
KT/James Jones to Portland for 2 future 1st's and cash.
I thought, damn KT is gone,who's gonna defend the post?...but hell ,2 first rd picks are gonna be VERY NICE.
I switched off and when i got home i switched back on and everyone was in an uproar.....i nearly fell off my chair when i realized what Sarver had done.

I myself was too depressed to even reply to this topic, I couldn't even bring myself to read it until days later from what I remember.

Made for a good re-read, AND I have finally found a new avatar to use, in remembrance of this atrocity.

*edit: I wonder if this could go down as one of the single worst offseasons for a team in nba history. Thanks, Robert Sarver. Thanks.
 

mjb21aztd

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boy Sean Marks really paned out for uh lol what did he avg 1.0 ppg if that lol.... god our ownership is horrible :(. I miss Jerry C
 

CaptainInsano

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Excellent idea. Hope you won't mind that I copy you.

You setup the trade Marion early while he has value bandwagon, I jumped on (albiet a bit late).

You setup the trade Amare bandwagon, I jumped on (this time quickly, from experience).

By all means, for once I can return the favor by creating the "piggybank avatar" bandwagon, and we can laugh to keep ourselves from crying.
 

Bufalay

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Worst trade ever.

SUNS will NOT make the playoffs.

Every team has 6 centers. Suns have zero.

Big men wins games. Suns don't have one. Suns won't win games.

Guess Kerr never got the memo that Mihm, Joe Smith, and the rest of the leading big men signed with other clubs.

Was the plan to play GRANT HILL at center all this time?

Kerr and Sarver need to be hung for being liars in fooling everyone that they were serious about a title.

What a horrible organization. Suns stink!


Why can't Andrew be more like Sunsman?
 
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