Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[Chopper0080]

Almost posted in the Petzing thread, but still not great body language on a must have play.

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It’s also why I wished he was ready to run when sent a man blitz.

This is so weird.

 

[BritCard]

The good thing is the next 5 (especially the next 3) will tell us a lot about Kyler going forward.

Next 3 games are games top 10 to 12 QBs should win.

Sweeping the Rams/49ers is tough no matter how down they are. If the defense keeps playing like they're playing then he should get one or both done as well.

The division is still there for him to take. Better to take the humbling losses earlier than at the very end.


I said the same thing in 2020 though.

Rams is going to be a hard game. In fact I think we are underdogs. They are healthy again and playing good football.

Panthers ain't going to be easy either. Pushed the Chiefs to 27-30 and took the Bucs to overtime and lost to a fumble. Probably should have won both games. They are an improving team.

 

[Stout]

DHop owned the sidelines (he freaking owned them) and Kirk could occasionally get behind defenses.

But MHJ is no DHop (not even close, at least not yet) and Dortch is no Kirk (love his big heart but he'll never be Kirk).

All of the "this could be the best offense in the league" was predicated on our WR room being above average. It's not.

It's certainly not going to be the best offense in the league, for the reasons you indicate. Not at all. It absolutely must be, and should be, better than it is currently. By a lot.

 

[Stout]

This is fair. I don't think any of us are saying he sucks or is having a terrible year, just that he hasn't been as good as we hope he can be.

Exactly.

 

[Stout]

There are plenty of people on here and in the fanbase ready to move from K1 based on this season.

Its delusional

There's that cognitive dissonance rearing its ugly head. Quite incorrect.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

It's certainly not going to be the best offense in the league, for the reasons you indicate. Not at all. It absolutely must be, and should be, better than it is currently. By a lot.

That's an interesting take - "must/should be better than it is".

I think we have to consider the context of the defenses we've faced, although being the hard (but mostly fair) man you are I doubt you're willing to give the offense very much latitude for this.

Here are some stats from google:

• Passing yards per game: 205.9, which ranks 20th overall
• Rushing yards per game: 141.4, which ranks 6th overall
• Total yards per game: 347.3, which ranks 11th overall
• Third down percentage: 41.1, which ranks 10th overall
• 16th in the NFL for points scored per game in 2024, averaging 22.2 points per game

What do you think of these Stout?

 

[Stout]

That's an interesting take "must/should be better than it is".

I think we have to consider context of the defenses we've faced, although being the hard (but mostly fair) man you are I doubt you're willing to give the offense very much latitude for this.

Here are some stats from google:

• Passing yards per game: 205.9, which ranks 20th overall
• Rushing yards per game: 141.4, which ranks 6th overall
• Total yards per game: 347.3, which ranks 11th overall
• Third down percentage: 41.1, which ranks 10th overall
• 16th in the NFL for points scored per game in 2024, averaging 22.2 points per game

What do you think of these Stout?

Sure, we've faced tough defenses. At times we have played well against them. But when you're putting up almost nothing but field goals where a single extra TD wins the game, or when you score 6 points in a game where your QB scores 6 for the other team and the opponent scores little, it's a bad trend. Add that this is the past two games in the beginning of the crunch time of the season, and the offense is a big problem right now.

Put it this way: Who would have thought our defense would be better than our offense at this stage of the season? Nick Rallis is still my best friend

 

[602 Native]

Sure, we've faced tough defenses. At times we have played well against them. But when you're putting up almost nothing but field goals where a single extra TD wins the game, or when you score 6 points in a game where your QB scores 6 for the other team and the opponent scores little, it's a bad trend.

Two games out of 12 is not a trend and the QB isn’t calling crappy plays all game which is a trend for our OC.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Sure, we've faced tough defenses. At times we have played well against them. But when you're putting up almost nothing but field goals where a single extra TD wins the game, or when you score 6 points in a game where your QB scores 6 for the other team and the opponent scores little, it's a bad trend. Add that this is the past two games in the beginning of the crunch time of the season, and the offense is a big problem right now.

Put it this way: Who would have thought our defense would be better than our offense at this stage of the season? Nick Rallis is still my best friend

haha... I agree with you 1000% on the defense. I can't imagine how ugly this season would be without Budda and the Miracles playing way, way, way over their heads (in no small part thanks to JG/NR)! We would have maybe two or three more losses by now and instead be talking about next year's draft! Not fun! lol

Back to the offense - you're leaning on some ancetodals, but if you say that that 16th in PPG is not good enough for the talent we have on that side of the ball (even given our WR room underachieving). I think I probably would agree with you.

I know it's unsatisfying to many on the board, but because of the tough schedule, I think our final evaluation of the offense (including K1) is still pending the next few games.

Appreciate it and hope you are otherwise well this morning!

 

[SoonerLou]

Where? You're looking at a frozen screen shot he's about to get hit. He would have had to step up and left to get out there's 2 rushers directly in front of him so stepping up the middle wasn't there. Maybe he gets out left but there's no clear lane they had a guy to his left too.

The mistake was the run on 3rd down he could have gotten more yards on that one but again after watching the replay that should have been a penalty on 91 anyways he hit Kyler in the head.

The first INT was horrible, gave them 3 points and robbed us of the chance to pin them with a punt. The grounding was a terrible play call but a bad decision by Kyler too and frankly he should have probably audibled out of it. The fumble was a bad play too he has to feel the pressure and step up, I thought Paris did well to push his man past Kyler but Kyler has to step up there to avoid the strip.

But I don't really fault him on the 4th down play the most open guy on the field is Zay and he's got like one step but Kyler would have had to throw there and hope for a penalty it was going to be an exceptionally difficult play to complete.

Again you don't see a classic K1 scramble opportunity?

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[Crimson Warrior]

Again you don't see a classic K1 scramble opportunity?

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MHJ is the primary and Murray is already in his throwing motion when MHJ starts to make his break (at :04). It looked like a timing route, and I think that ball was going up no matter what SoonerLou.

I guess you have to credit the defender for covering MHJ really well. It's like he read MHJ's mind, and it wasn't a great throw either. Higher and more to the outside and maybe MHJ outjumps #1 for MIN.

But it's not the end of the world though okay?

The last two were super unfriendly QB games. For anybody. But Murray and the team just about pulled this one off. He was close. We were up six with 3 minutes to go.

Let's see where we're at after this week's game. It doesn't need to be too pretty, we just need to win. Then we go up against couple of weaker defenses, and maybe Kyler can get back in the MVP conversation (which is not important from the team's perspective obviously, but is fun for us K1 superfans).

 

[BritCard]

Here's my main Kyler issue.

Sunday is a HUGE game. If we win, our playoff odds are over 70% and if we lose they drop to 17%. It's similar for the Seahawks. It is, by all definitions, a season defining game.

Yet, I have very little faith in Kyler to deliver. If it's Joe Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Goff, Herbert, even Baker Mayfield etc out there I have faith those guys will deliver in the crunch. They will do what it takes and find a way to get the team over the line.

I just don't have that with Kyler. How many here do? How many people here honestly feel that Kyler will "find a way" more than they feel that gnawing sense of dread that it's going to be another damp squib of a performance?

How many people feel that a 300 yard, 3/0 TD/INT game is more likely than 210 yard 1/1 game?

 

[Stout]

Here's my main Kyler issue.

Sunday is a HUGE game. If we win, our playoff odds are over 70% and if we lose they drop to 17%. It's similar for the Seahawks. It is, by all definitions, a season defining game.

Yet, I have very little faith in Kyler to deliver. If it's Joe Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Goff, Herbert, even Baker Mayfield etc out there I have faith those guys will deliver in the crunch. They will do what it takes and find a way to get the team over the line.

I just don't have that with Kyler. How many here do? How many people here honestly feel that Kyler will "find a way" more than they feel that gnawing sense of dread that it's going to be another damp squib of a performance?

How many people feel that a 300 yard, 3/0 TD/INT game is more likely than 210 yard 1/1 game?

I mean, I've been avoiding saying it or even really trying to think it, but how can it not be a worry? It's his MO. Can he change the narrative? Possibly. Will he? Eh...

 

[kerouac9]

Here's my main Kyler issue.

Sunday is a HUGE game. If we win, our playoff odds are over 70% and if we lose they drop to 17%. It's similar for the Seahawks. It is, by all definitions, a season defining game.

Yet, I have very little faith in Kyler to deliver. If it's Joe Burrow, Allen, Mahomes, Lamar, Goff, Herbert, even Baker Mayfield etc out there I have faith those guys will deliver in the crunch. They will do what it takes and find a way to get the team over the line.

I just don't have that with Kyler. How many here do? How many people here honestly feel that Kyler will "find a way" more than they feel that gnawing sense of dread that it's going to be another damp squib of a performance?

How many people feel that a 300 yard, 3/0 TD/INT game is more likely than 210 yard 1/1 game?

I don't think that Kyler, Gannon, or any of the other Arizona Cardinals players care about your feelings.

Fun season, relevant into December, etc., etc. Kyler isn't going anywhere; it's okay to hunt around for an alternative if you have a QB who isn't among the top 20 in the league. It's real hard to upgrade from the 12th-best QB in the NFL.

It is pretty hilarious putting Goff, Herbert, and Lamar Jackson among clutch performers in the NFL. None of those guys have won squat.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I don't think that Kyler, Gannon, or any of the other Arizona Cardinals players care about your feelings.

Fun season, relevant into December, etc., etc. Kyler isn't going anywhere; it's okay to hunt around for an alternative if you have a QB who isn't among the top 20 in the league. It's real hard to upgrade from the 12th-best QB in the NFL.

It is pretty hilarious putting Goff, Herbert, and Lamar Jackson among clutch performers in the NFL. None of those guys have won squat.

Goff has 5 playoff wins…

 

[DVontel]

I don't think that Kyler, Gannon, or any of the other Arizona Cardinals players care about your feelings.

Fun season, relevant into December, etc., etc. Kyler isn't going anywhere; it's okay to hunt around for an alternative if you have a QB who isn't among the top 20 in the league. It's real hard to upgrade from the 12th-best QB in the NFL.

It is pretty hilarious putting Goff, Herbert, and Lamar Jackson among clutch performers in the NFL. None of those guys have won squat.

Ehh I think Goff & Lamar belong at least. They have some playoff wins even as an underdog. Herbert hasn’t done anything even though I know he’s a better QB than Kyler.

But realistically no young QB has won anything outside of Mahomes.

 

[Stout]

I don't think that Kyler, Gannon, or any of the other Arizona Cardinals players care about your feelings.

Fun season, relevant into December, etc., etc. Kyler isn't going anywhere; it's okay to hunt around for an alternative if you have a QB who isn't among the top 20 in the league. It's real hard to upgrade from the 12th-best QB in the NFL.

It is pretty hilarious putting Goff, Herbert, and Lamar Jackson among clutch performers in the NFL. None of those guys have won squat.

Then Kyler has won negative squat

 

[DVontel]

Ehh I think Goff & Lamar belong at least. They have some playoff wins even as an underdog. Herbert hasn’t done anything even though I know he’s a better QB than Kyler.

But realistically no young QB has won anything outside of Mahomes.

Just to add on to this:

That’s why I hate the tired-ass “Can we win a SB with this guy?” conversation.

Truth is we don’t know because no other young QB has won a SB outside of Mahomes.

 

[kerouac9]

Goff has 5 playoff wins…

Awesome. He's 4-4 as a starter in the playoffs. To make the Super Bowl last year, the Lions took a 24-7 lead into halftime. After the break, Detroit went turned the ball over on downs twice, fumbled, went three-and-out, and turned the ball over on downs again. What's his most memorable playoff win?

Ehh I think Goff & Lamar belong at least. They have some playoff wins even as an underdog. Herbert hasn’t done anything even though I know he’s a better QB than Kyler.

But realistically no young QB has won anything outside of Mahomes.

I like Lamar more than most, but he's 2-4 in the playoffs. I'm a huge fan of his work, but to drop him in the clutch category is probably going overboard.

 

[kerouac9]

Just to add on to this:

That’s why I hate the tired-ass “Can we win a SB with this guy?” conversation.

Truth is we don’t know because no other young QB has won a SB outside of Mahomes.

I don't love that conversation, either. Kyler's 27 and has started 77 NFL games. When do we stop considering him a "young QB"?

 

[DVontel]

I don't love that conversation, either. Kyler's 27 and has started 77 NFL games. When do we stop considering him a "young QB"?

That was a general statement, not really pertaining to Kyler.

Tbh, I consider any QB under 30 “young”.

 

[BritCard]

I don't think that Kyler, Gannon, or any of the other Arizona Cardinals players care about your feelings.

Fun season, relevant into December, etc., etc. Kyler isn't going anywhere; it's okay to hunt around for an alternative if you have a QB who isn't among the top 20 in the league. It's real hard to upgrade from the 12th-best QB in the NFL.

It is pretty hilarious putting Goff, Herbert, and Lamar Jackson among clutch performers in the NFL. None of those guys have won squat.

All of those guys have won big division games. Lamar has had a handful of head to head games against the Bengals alone where "next score wins". All have won playoff games. All have won games like Seattle at Cards on Sunday with the season on the line.

What big games has Kyler won? The last big game he was called on he laid an egg in the playoffs. The year before, in the last game of the season against the Rams, while at 8-8 against Wolford at QB with the playoffs on the line he say out most of the game with a soft ankle injury, then if I recall came back in for Q4 to try play hero.

Big game against Green Bay in 2021, fluffed his lines at the end of the game.

What are the big game wins that make you think Kyler can pull it off?

 

[SoonerLou]

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[ASUCHRIS]

I like Lamar more than most, but he's 2-4 in the playoffs. I'm a huge fan of his work, but to drop him in the clutch category is probably going overboard.

Yeah, Lamar is an incredible regular season performer, but he has a ton to prove in big games. An MVP caliber player has to win more of those games.

 

[kerouac9]

What are the big game wins that make you think Kyler can pull it off?

I'm not sure he can. I think the key to the Gannon process is making this game feel as much like the Jets or Dolphins games as possible. That's the point of a process-based approach.