Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I struggle that people on this board argue like the only acceptable place to be is winning 4 games or winning multiple playoff games. In hindsight you can argue the Browns moved on from their "Kyler" to get Watson and look where it landed them.

I would not have traded for Watson. Most of the world thought that was insane. False equivalency.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Seattle has built their team around a top 20 QB in Geno after moving off of a 33 year old QB. That was when they had built the equity of 9 winning season in a row.

Minnesota kept re-signing a old QB in Cousins who couldn't win primetime games until his ask became too high and they could move up for a rookie QB. They had been trying for years to move up for a QB but had to be patient.

Denver had a HOF coach (EDIT: they didn't and see below) who told them to acquire Russ and then told them to dump Russ. Gannon doesn't have that credibility yet. Consider Russ is having a great year for the Steelers.

(EDIT: Broncos acquired Russ in 2022 and then signed Payton as HC in 2023. I flubbed up the years here)

What’s your point? You can find a myriad factors to try to differentiate any argument. But the reality is in each of these the basis of the comparison is that a team decided to move off a mediocre QB and didn’t have to bottom out as is your thesis.

 

[Redsz]

Saw something that got me thinking.

Don't be too surprised if Kyler plays really well these last 4 games. Kyler (and Petzing) are not facing MacDonald and Flores caliber DC's.

Not sure it changes the outlook on Kyler and Petzing in 2025, but its possible they find a groove to end the year.

I expect it. The pressure of the post season is basically gone barring some miraculous events. He's always played well in games with no repercussions

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Also, what do/did all of those teams have that the Cardinals don't? A solid roster.

People keep bringing up roster, but let’s look at ours:

Until the last few games our oline looked good (not mediocre, but good) and includes a top 6 pick, a priority free agent, a “find” in fro, and surprisingly adequate guards. They massively sucked in the first Seattle game, but weren’t atrocious in minny or the second Seattle game.

Charmin is underachieving but he’s the #4 pick in the draft. We’ve been told that hat Wilson is an adequate #2. And we have a top TE.

Conner is just a flat out good runningback. Demercado has been good at his role and benson has been better as the season progresses.

Defensively:

White and Mack are good inside linebackers. We keep getting told that zaven is playing well.

We have a pairing of well regarded safeties, including a perennial all pro.

Garrett has been superb and Melton looks like he’s got game and Thomas has exceeded expectations. Still overall in progress.

The dline has exceeded expectations, but those were as low as could be to start and it lacks a star. A star likely makes them at least okay.

Defense severely lacks a passrusher.

This isn’t a barren wasteland.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Is punting a season (a phrase used in this thread) not advocating for tanking?

Not necessarily. It just means a season where we don’t have a chance to make the playoffs, which is what I think would be the same if we kept kyler.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Arizona media starting to turn on Kyler:

Hey, Kyler Murray: Start winning or start packing. Either way, cheer up

Arizona Cardinals' quarterback has played poorly. His body language and attitude match. Too bad it's his fault the team is losing games.

www.azcentral.com

Tough to argue with that write up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We won't have one until 2026.

Kyler is the 10th highest paid QB right now on a per year average. The difference between Kyler and the 16th/17th highest paid QBs, Carr and Rodgers, is 8.5 mil per year.

Concerns over his contract is a little overstated at this point.

Is he performing at the level of the 10th best QB?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What do you determine as anything? Serious question. For me, 7-10 wins is something. I want better, but the high end of that range is a possible playoff spot and the low end is better than many seasons over the past 10 years. I will take that for 2025 and don't feel like it qualifies as "punting the season".

Except it then also negatively impacts 2026. So you allow kyler to negatively impact the team for two more seasons.

And yeah, Im now of the mind his range is 6-8 wins and not 7-10. And that’s significant.

 

[kerouac9]

And yeah, Im now of the mind his range is 6-8 wins and not 7-10. And that’s significant.

Sub-Jared Goff??

 

[Stout]

What do you determine as anything? Serious question. For me, 7-10 wins is something. I want better, but the high end of that range is a possible playoff spot and the low end is better than many seasons over the past 10 years. I will take that for 2025 and don't feel like it qualifies as "punting the season".

So basically, this season. You want exactly what we're getting this season, assuming we win at least another game. Not for me. That is floor not ceiling. I want to try to be better, not go with a subpar plan they pray to be bang average.

 

[Stout]

I agree with this but absent of a better option popping up, i think we can win between 7-10 games in 2025 with Kyler and after the season, we can see if any better options emerge at that time.

And when all that huge amount of 2026 cap space gets locked in because he's still here next year, and we either have to keep him for 2026 or barely field a freaking team? What then?

 

[Stout]

A) I said third round rookie, not cheese.

B) you’re stumping for Fischer rams purgatory.

C) that’s the worst type of punting imo

D) you’re entitled to want mediocrity.

Damn, Fischer Rams purgatory? That's a sick burn!

 

[82CardsGrad]

If I'm reading OverTheCap correctly, cutting Murray before 1 Jun 2025 incurs a dead money cap hit of $58.5M, while saving "only" $43.3M, with a net loss of $15.2M of cap space in 2025.

Cutting Murray before 1 Jun 2026 incurs a dead money hit of only $17.9M, a savings of $53.2M, for a net gain of $35.3M in cap space in 2026. Seems a lot more realistic.

This is correct.

 

[MrYeahBut]

I'm behind.. I had to google what "stans" means. I get it now.

Nothing to see here...
Carry on.

 

[Russ Smith]

I would not have traded for Watson. Most of the world thought that was insane. False equivalency.

Admittedly it's been awhile but we had an entire thread of people wanting us to get Watson at the time and arguing he was better than Kyler.

My argument had nothing to do with football, I didn't believe he was innocent and thought you can't rely on someone like that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Sub-Jared Goff??

Yeah. I mean, one guy has multiple playoff seasons and a trip to a super bowl and one guy has . . . Kyler’s career. And yeah, I know there are a ton of variables that go into each of those. But kyler just hasn’t shown anything in the biggest of moments. He just hasn’t.

 

[GeorgiaCard88]

Hey, Kyler Murray: Start winning or start packing. Either way, cheer up

Arizona Cardinals' quarterback has played poorly. His body language and attitude match. Too bad it's his fault the team is losing games.

www.azcentral.com

Sums up my feelings exactly. It's time for Murray to start winning or start packing

 

[schutd]

These examples always miss their point so badly. You know why fans can withstand the bad Goff game or Wilson game? It’s because they are THE OUTLIER and both of those guys REGULARLY take their teams to the playoffs and have made Super Bowl appearances.

Kyler has nothing in common with any of that kind of success. If he ever did, he’d be given more rope. But every time he has a chance to win big games and get us to the playoffs where he could earn that kind of trust, he faceplants hard with an ugly 0-6 record before this season, now adding this putrid 0-3 streak.

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how people make these comparisons without seeing the PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE, GLARINGLY OBVIOUS difference in results. They even acknowledge that the teams won in spite of the QBs poor performance. Its astounding, really. We do not win. We lose, and when we win, and we have a chance to take the next step in the process, win a game that matters, our guy poos himself, and we slide through the stains back down into the depths of garbage franchise-dom.

Why is that so hard for people to see?

 

[BritCard]

I'm not sure at this point. What I do know is that it's possible and it's literally in Monti's job description. He has to get the QB decisions right moving forward. Sticking with a lame duck is lame.

Tough spot for him. Rebuilding team and a big contract, lots of dead money. I'd be listening to trade offers this offseason if anyone called, but otherwise I think the first out is 2026.

 

[BritCard]

Sure, nobody thinks Minshew would make the team better than Kyler. But if your team insists on running such a conservative offense and spend the 36m difference on some additional talent, perhaps you would have a better overall team. I'm not advocating for that, but I also think at this point the ceiling for Kyler is a 1st round exit and a lot of bad body language.

I really don't want to sign up for either option.

It's not a conservative offense, it's a conservative QB who can't read defenses.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I, for the life of me, cannot understand how people make these comparisons without seeing the PUNCH YOU IN THE FACE, GLARINGLY OBVIOUS difference in results. They even acknowledge that the teams won in spite of the QBs poor performance. Its astounding, really. We do not win. We lose, and when we win, and we have a chance to take the next step in the process, win a game that matters, our guy poos himself, and we slide through the stains back down into the depths of garbage franchise-dom.

Why is that so hard for people to see?

I don’t know, man. It’s very confounding… and happens so often, for so long.

It’s like when people used to say “Kyler or Keim (or any other disappointing Cardinal) could win three Super Bowls in a row and you’d STILL be complaining!” As if there was any frame of reference to show that considering how bad the history of performance was.

 

[kerouac9]

I don’t know, man. It’s very confounding… and happens so often, for so long.

It’s like when people used to say “Kyler or Keim (or any other disappointing Cardinal) could win three Super Bowls in a row and you’d STILL be complaining!” As if there was any frame of reference to show that considering how bad the history of performance was.

In the same way, it’s always next game or season that will provide the determinative evidence on Kyler.

 

[Cheesebeef]

In the same way, it’s always next game or season that will provide the determinative evidence on Kyler.

I can’t wait for the heaping praise coming for Kyler after a 240 yard and 1 TD game against one of the worst teams in the league this week that proves yet once again, he is elite… because Dan Orvlosky said so.

 

[kerouac9]

I can’t wait for the heaping praise coming for Kyler after a 240 yard and 1 TD game against one of the worst teams in the league this week that proves yet once again, he is elite… because Dan Orvlosky said so.

Check out his QBR!

 

[tennis-player]

I can’t wait for the heaping praise coming for Kyler after a 240 yard and 1 TD game against one of the worst teams in the league this week that proves yet once again, he is elite… because Dan Orvlosky said so.

I don't know. Those stats in a convincing win look pretty good.