Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[BritCard]

He is a great number 2 and one of the best in the league. He isn't a 1 but would be on many teams.

He's never had more than 756 yards, which he had this year, the only time he's passed 515 in his 4 seasons.

But sure, he's elite.

And Zay Flowers isn't elite either. He's good, but he's not elite. He had less yards than MHJ as a rookie and just broke 1000 in year 2 as the clear #1 receiver.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

First off,

It's never poor Kyler's fault, is it? I can hope that this is just Gannon dealing with the situation before him, but this reeks of sincerity.

Kyler, you damn well should be questioning yourself. You suck in every big moment that comes along. You need to ask yourself why, because it ain't everyone else's fault.

Maybe everything will change...in year 7. Yeah, would LOVE to see a shred of evidence of that ever happening anywhere.

 

[BritCard]

this passes the eye test

better than avg protection, not good separation Plenty of independent analysts have noted the lack of separation by Cardinal receivers

dont know how much of that is scheme vs the actual WRs

Kyler is 28th on Next Gen Stats CAY (Completed air yards) metric which is basically ADoT but only for completions and 35th on IAY (Intended Air yards) which included all pass attempts.

Barely anyone plays press man at the line now, so you're not going to get a receiver blasting a DB off the LOS and instantly gaining 3 yards. Everyone sits off 5 to 6 yards in man.

Extremely difficult for receivers to get decent separation with such consistently short targets.

 

[BritCard]

Cardinals HC Jonathan Gannon says Kyler Murray isn't the problem

“He is a top-level franchise quarterback, and he’s played like that. He’s shown that,” Gannon said this week.

cardswire.usatoday.com

“He was in my office for a long time,” Gannon said of Murray. “He wants some plays back. So do I. We all do. You start looking around, you list the playoff teams and the quarterbacks of the playoff teams, I told him and I believe this: what is the common denominator of those quarterbacks in the playoffs right now? You could list all these different things. I said, ‘I’ll make it easy on you, it’s good teams.’ It’s what it is. Good quarterbacks are on good teams. We have to do everything that we can to support him and put a good team around him, then he has to play to his level consistently, which I know he can do.”

It sounds like Kyler has lost some faith in himself and Gannon needed to try and restore it.

This is the worst thing I've heard Gannon say yet.

Good QB's elevate teams. If you need a good team to be a good QB then you're not really a good QB. Win sure, but not be good at playing QB, which he clearly has not been.

Joe Burrow was great this year, despite a poor team. Has always been great despite a poor team really.

The Commanders were touted to be garbage this year, there's nothing good about their roster. It's no better than ours overall. But Daniels elevated that team.

Same with Stroud last year, Texans were favorites for the #1 pick because that roster sucked.

It's nothing to do with the team when your QB misses an open receiver, or over/under throws a guy by 5 yards, or bails out of a clean pocket, or intentionally grounds on 3rd down, or throws 7 picks in 5 games.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

This is the worst thing I've heard Gannon say yet.

Good QB's elevate teams. If you need a good team to be a good QB then you're not really a good QB. Win sure, but not be good at playing QB, which he clearly has not been.

Joe Burrow was great this year, despite a poor team. Has always been great despite a poor team really.

The Commanders were touted to be garbage this year, there's nothing good about their roster. It's no better than ours overall. But Daniels elevated that team.

Same with Stroud last year, Texans were favorites for the #1 pick because that roster sucked.

It's nothing to do with the team when your QB misses an open receiver, or over/under throws a guy by 5 yards, or bails out of a clean pocket, or intentionally grounds on 3rd down, or throws 7 picks in 5 games.

He's basically telling you the talent on the team is sub par. It is sub par.

 

[HairZach]

This is the worst thing I've heard Gannon say yet.

Good QB's elevate teams. If you need a good team to be a good QB then you're not really a good QB. Win sure, but not be good at playing QB, which he clearly has not been.

Joe Burrow was great this year, despite a poor team. Has always been great despite a poor team really.

The Commanders were touted to be garbage this year, there's nothing good about their roster. It's no better than ours overall. But Daniels elevated that team.

Same with Stroud last year, Texans were favorites for the #1 pick because that roster sucked.

It's nothing to do with the team when your QB misses an open receiver, or over/under throws a guy by 5 yards, or bails out of a clean pocket, or intentionally grounds on 3rd down, or throws 7 picks in 5 games.

I do like hearing Gannon say it even if I don't fully believe it, he still has to have Kyler's back as long as Kyler is on the roster. I think for this years playoffs the only QBs that are elevated by their teams are Hurts, Goff, Darnold, Wilson and maybe Stroud. Stroud had a horrible sophomore slump, it really felt like the Texan's defense carried them all season.

 

[BritCard]

He's basically telling you the talent on the team is sub par. It is sub par.

The talent on the team has nothing to do with how Kyler plays. It effects wins, it does not effect Kyler playing poorly unless his O line is ass, which it has not been.

There's no team talent excuse for some of the picks he's thrown or open guys he's missed.

 

[DVontel]

Brit hoping the Head Coach throws his current QB under the bus.

Funny.

 

[kerouac9]

The talent on the team has nothing to do with how Kyler plays. It effects wins, it does not effect Kyler playing poorly unless his O line is ass, which it has not been.

There's no team talent excuse for some of the picks he's thrown or open guys he's missed.

In a lot of ways Gannon is saying that wins aren't a QB stat. It takes a full team to make the playoffs. Kyler needs to focus on what he can do to be a better QB and how that can contribute to a win.

 

[BritCard]

Brit hoping the Head Coach throws his current QB under the bus.

Funny.

No. He could just say nothing. He could say that Kyler needs to get better and the team needs to get better. He could not make excuses for poor QB play.

There were lots of things he could have said between throwing him under the bus and this garbage.

 

[BritCard]

In a lot of ways Gannon is saying that wins aren't a QB stat. It takes a full team to make the playoffs. Kyler needs to focus on what he can do to be a better QB and how that can contribute to a win.

The problem with that is that THIS team should have made the playoffs, but Kyler choked hard during a 4-5 game stretch of crucial games. A lot of those loses were on Kyler, not the team.

 

[DVontel]

No. He could just say nothing. He could say that Kyler needs to get better and the team needs to get better. He could not make excuses for poor QB play.

There were lots of things he could have said between throwing him under the bus and this garbage.

He’s the damn Head Coach, of course he’s going to say something. He’s going to go for bat for his QB regardless of how we feel. That’s his job.

Getting frustrated at him for not throwing his QB under the bus is hilarious.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The talent on the team has nothing to do with how Kyler plays. It effects wins, it does not effect Kyler playing poorly unless his O line is ass, which it has not been.

There's no team talent excuse for some of the picks he's thrown or open guys he's missed.

This is the line:

LT - Above average until PJJr went out
LG - Ass
C - Above average
RG - Ass
RT - Below Average

Overall it is sub par.

 

[602 Native]

He's never had more than 756 yards, which he had this year, the only time he's passed 515 in his 4 seasons.

But sure, he's elite.

And Zay Flowers isn't elite either. He's good, but he's not elite. He had less yards than MHJ as a rookie and just broke 1000 in year 2 as the clear #1 receiver.

All this talk about yards and not a single mention of TDs.

You guys are a crack-up.

Again the WRs in Baltimore play in the same type of offense that AZ has. It prioritizes RB & TEs.

Please go on though.

 

[BirdGangThing]

another year has passed - opportunities squandered - how long must this last - this is what i ponder - why Lord? why can't we land a qb? one who's 6 feet and under the age of 30?

one who can lead the team - not in sacks but in yards and tds

one who deserves the 1 on his jersey and doesn't get outplayed by a last picked purdy

we're all getting older - we've all said "in my life time" - but it ain't happening with kyler murray - of this there's no doubt in my mind

so we can go through the motions - bring him back for another year - claim we have no choice and take it up the rear - barely miss the playoffs - which is probably a good thing - so we can draft another quarterback - with pick #16

 

[Chopper0080]

He's basically telling you the talent on the team is sub par. It is sub par.

This is how I took it as well. He is saying they need to put better talent around Kyler. While I know some people will take that as catering to Kyler, in truth, I think everyone agrees that this team needs better talent.

 

[Chopper0080]

All this talk about yards and not a single mention of TDs.

You guys are a crack-up.

Again the WRs in Baltimore play in the same type of offense that AZ has. It prioritizes RB & TEs.

Please go on though.

It's because everyone generally knows that TDs for a receiver are a random outcome stat. McBride was like 18th in the NFL is TE receiving TDs. That doesn't make him the 18th best TE. Zack Ertz was 4th. Doesn't mean he is a premier TE talent.

 

[BirdGangThing]

This is how I took it as well. He is saying they need to put better talent around Kyler. While I know some people will take that as catering to Kyler, in truth, I think everyone agrees that this team needs better talent.

and there are also qbs who do more with less

 

[kerouac9]

This is how I took it as well. He is saying they need to put better talent around Kyler. While I know some people will take that as catering to Kyler, in truth, I think everyone agrees that this team needs better talent.

I don’t know if we’re still in the “better talent” stage. I think we’re at the “players need to answer the call” stage.

Beej
Collins
Melton
Jalen Thompson
MHJ
I. Adams
Benson
Robinson
Wilson

All these guys probably underproduced to their draft status/talent level this year. Even if they more or less met expectations for year 1 or 2.

 

[kerouac9]

and there are also qbs who do more with less

Whom are you thinking of after Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Lamar?

 

[602 Native]

It's because everyone generally knows that TDs for a receiver are a random outcome stat. McBride was like 18th in the NFL is TE receiving TDs. That doesn't make him the 18th best TE. Zack Ertz was 4th. Doesn't mean he is a premier TE talent.

"TDs for a receiver are a random outcome stat"

This is an unserious statement and is below the average NFL fan comment.

You are better than this.

 

[kerouac9]

"TDs for a receiver are a random outcome stat"

This is an unserious statement and is below the average NFL fan comment.

You are better than this.

It’s not “random”, but it’s more dependent on external factors than receptions and yards. Bateman has as many TDs as Drake London on half as many receptions; are you saying he’s twice as efficient/deadly than London?

 

[BirdGangThing]

Whom are you thinking of after Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Lamar?

they don't have less

 

[football karma]

Whom are you thinking of after Mahomes

Mahomes is interesting.

His last two years have been .............. good but not like the previous 5. 93 passer rating.

Also correlates to the dilution of his skill people over that period of time.

I'm not saying Pat Mahommes isnt good.

I am saying even an unquestioned top tier QB can have his production impacted by the level of talent around him.

 

[kerouac9]

they don't have less

Less than what?

Josh Allen has very little at the skill positions. I have little doubt that Lamar Jackson's weapons outside of King Henry would look like much on another team. Patrick Mahomes has a really good offensive line and little after Kelce.

I'd say teams offering more support for their QBs include Seattle, San Fran, LARM, Green Bay, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Cincy, Tennessee, Philly, Carolina. Those are 11 teams.