Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[Shane]

Gesieki had more yards than Hock.

This one is disingenuous. And I’m sure just a failure of thought. Considering Hock missed the first 6 games of the season and considering his performance one year post ACL.

 

[BritCard]

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I don't know what this is trying to say, it looks counterintuitive, but anything that has Bryce Young at the top and Mayfield, Mahomes, Daniels and Goff at the bottom and Lamar mid is obviously of no value.

Kyler's data basically says he goes to his first read or he checks it down, and if none of them are an option he scrambles, and thinks that is positive.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This one is disingenuous. And I’m sure just a failure of thought. Considering Hock missed the first 6 games of the season and considering his performance one year post ACL.

Is it though? Darnold was at a deficit at TE for the entire first half of the season while the Bengals had a healthy and solid TE all year.

 

[BritCard]

2024 Darnold: 36 total TDs
2020 Kyler: 37 total TDs

Is anyone prepared to argue that the 2020 CARDS offence was more talented than the 2024 Vikes?

Weird you chose that one stat when there are several others. Darnold had a better passer rating, more yards, more wins, 11 more passing TDs, and of course, didn't miss 3 games.

 

[BirdGangThing]

So in other words you have not point to that post then because this is a K1 thread.

lemme help you out man

Robot or human?

 

[Shane]

His argument is Gisieki had more yards than Hock. Well that’s a given considering time missed(6 games) and first year back off ACL. But as a talent I would personally take Hock over Gisieki who is a good player no doubt. That’s why I only framed that player and have no issue with the rest of what he said.

 

[Chopper0080]

This one is disingenuous. And I’m sure just a failure of thought. Considering Hock missed the first 6 games of the season and considering his performance one year post ACL.

Is it? Gesicki had more yards than Hockenson had this year, and in 2022. So, Gesicki put up a better season than 2 of Hockenson's three seasons in Minnesota, and 5 of his 7 years in the league. Maybe that is because of injury, but that also factors into talent.

 

[Chopper0080]

Chase is playing with a great QB.
JJ plays with (Checks notes Darnold who is trash)
You always are in the yards kick. It is quite funny. No mention of TDs when discussing these guys.

The line of Minny is way better than cincy again not arguable.

JJ can play with any QB as seen by Darnold this year and KK prior to that.

Cincy had 3.2 offensive TDs per game on the year...Minnesota 2.5. I felt that you would have seen this but I guess that would require you look up statistics to back your claims. That doesn't seem like your strong suit.

 

[Shane]

Is it? Gesicki had more yards than Hockenson had this year, and in 2022. So, Gesicki put up a better season than 2 of Hockenson's three seasons in Minnesota, and 5 of his 7 years in the league. Maybe that is because of injury, but that also factors into talent.

IMO yes… even with injury history Hock is still leading Giseiki career wise in every category. Both being in the league exactly 7 years. But again Jmo.

 

[kerouac9]

That's not my point at all.

My point is that we don't need a better roster to be a successful team (See Commanders) we just need a better QB.

We could spend a hundred million in cap space trying to build a roster good enough to offset how bad Kyler can be when it gets to the crunch, or we could just accept he's bad and move on.

The second option seems cheaper and easier.

I'm not saying it's easy, but teams do it every year.

Rather the hope of improvement than the certainty of mediocrity.

(Also, Herbert is not close to the same tier as Kyler and Lawrence)

It's much easier to build a talented roster around a mid player than it is to draft an upgrade from mid to elite at one position. If only because there are many, many more avenues to achieve the former and but one for the latter.

Teams don't upgrade their QB position from mid to elite every year. It's just that the jump from Desmond Ridder to Kirk Cousins is real big.

 

[602 Native]

The high paid actual backup this year was Jarrett Stidham at $6 million. Jones probably gets closer to $8 to $10 million because he can start. I couls see a team like the Raiders drafting a QB and signing Jones to back him up

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/mike-klis/broncos-stidham-tied-for-highest-paid-veteran-backup-qb-in-nfl/73-85f14241-49a0-4270-a7a6-826caac8a86b

Then absolutely no based on the needs on defense.

Thankfully K1 proved he can play a full season even with injuries to the Oline so a high priced backup is a luxury and not a need.

 

[QuebecCard]

Weird you chose that one stat when there are several others. Darnold had a better passer rating, more yards, more wins, 11 more passing TDs, and of course, didn't miss 3 games.

... and will be once again looking for a home this offseason.

 

[602 Native]

His argument is Gisieki had more yards than Hock. Well that’s a given considering time missed(6 games) and first year back off ACL. But as a talent I would personally take Hock over Gisieki who is a good player no doubt. That’s why I only framed that player and have no issue with the rest of what he said.

Hock is a top 5 TE and maybe top 2 or 3.

 

[Chopper0080]

IMO yes… even with injury history Hock is still leading Giseiki career wise in every category. Both being in the league exactly 7 years. But again Jmo.

An argument of Hockenson is a better player but Mike Gesicki had a better year is valid but then where does the argument stop when comparing rosters?

The claim was Minnesota had the best offensive talent in the league this year. I cited Cincy as one of multiple disputes. The response was that Cincy was not close despite no statistical backing. Facts are that FOR THIS YEAR Mike Gesicki was better. It is why I added a caveat with health for SF. They have better talent but that talent was not better this year.

 

[602 Native]

An argument of Hockenson is a better player but Mike Gesicki had a better year is valid but then where does the argument stop when comparing rosters?

The claim was Minnesota had the best offensive talent in the league this year. I cited Cincy as one of multiple disputes. The response was that Cincy was not close despite no statistical backing. Facts are that FOR THIS YEAR Mike Gesicki was better. It is why I added a caveat with health for SF. They have better talent but that talent was not better this year.

The question you should be asking is does Burrow make his guys better or is Darnold aided by his guys.

Burrow would make any WR core look good and we all know the answer for Darnold.

*This isn't saying Cincy doesn't have good skill players.

 

[Chopper0080]

Hock is a top 5 TE and maybe top 2 or 3.

Is he?

Over the past two seasons.

George Kittle - 2126 yards 14 TDs
Trey McBride - 1971 yards 5 TDs
Travis Kelce - 1807 yards 8 TDs
Sam LaPorta - 1615 yards 17 TDs
Jonnu Smith - 1466 yards 11 TDs
TJ Hockenson - 1415 yards 5 TDs
David Njoku - 1387 yards 11 TDs

None of this factors in Bowers amazing year of 1194 yards and 5 TDs just this season.

So, TJ is clearly not a top 2 or 3 TE. I don't know the argument for him being a top 5 TE other than throwing out Bowers rookie season, citing LaPorte is too young and that three years ago he was better than McBride was as a rookie.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Hock is a top 5 TE and maybe top 2 or 3.

Hock was a top 5 TE pre-injury, but he wasn’t that guy coming back mid year. Doesn’t mean he won’t get back there, but he was pretty mid when he came back this season.

 

[Chopper0080]

The question you should be asking is does Burrow make his guys better or is Darnold aided by his guys.

Burrow would make any WR core look good and we all know the answer for Darnold.

*This isn't saying Cincy doesn't have good skill players.

Ok but then this devolves into a chicken or the egg argument. Who elevates what and how much. Do I think Darnold puts up significantly worse stats with Jamar Chase, Tee Higgins, Iosivas, Gesicki, and Chase Brown...not really. Those are also a really good group of players. Some, me, would argue that it is a more talented group or at least it is very close.

 

[602 Native]

Is he?

Over the past two seasons.

George Kittle - 2126 yards 14 TDs
Trey McBride - 1971 yards 5 TDs
Travis Kelce - 1807 yards 8 TDs
Sam LaPorta - 1615 yards 17 TDs
Jonnu Smith - 1466 yards 11 TDs
TJ Hockenson - 1415 yards 5 TDs
David Njoku - 1387 yards 11 TDs

None of this factors in Bowers amazing year of 1194 yards and 5 TDs just this season.

So, TJ is clearly not a top 2 or 3 TE. I don't know the argument for him being a top 5 TE other than throwing out Bowers rookie season, citing LaPorte is too young and that three years ago he was better than McBride was as a rookie.

Youre like the master of selective stats.

Congrats!

 

[Chopper0080]

Youre like the master of selective stats.

Congrats!

I added TDs just for you. If you want to generate some comprehensive statistical breakdown to prove me wrong, go ahead. Do the work. To this point, my "selective stats" seem to be lapping your vibe based ranking system.

 

[Russ Smith]

Cincy had 3.2 offensive TDs per game on the year...Minnesota 2.5. I felt that you would have seen this but I guess that would require you look up statistics to back your claims. That doesn't seem like your strong suit.

I'm lost. I thought we were discussing the talent AROUND the QB? The reason Cincy has more TD's per game is Burrow is MUCH better than Darnold.

If you put Burrow on Minnesota their offensive stats would jump markedly IMO, and Cincy's would fall off with Darnold.

They're VERY similar in terms of personnel around the QB, the difference is one QB is way better than the other

 

[kerouac9]

If you put Burrow on Minnesota their offensive stats would jump markedly IMO, and Cincy's would fall off with Darnold.

Eh... I dunno. I think their offense stats are pretty maxed out. Maybe Justin Jefferson gets closer to 1800 yards or 2000. They went 11-3 with the #9 scoring offense and the #12 yardage defense. I don't know if Burrow helps fix their 26th-ranking rushing attack.

I think part of the virtue of the McVay system is it maximizes quarterbacks with limitations like Darnold. Hard to say how it would manage an elite prospect. Aaron Rodgers didn't enjoy it much, but he's also a prickish weirdo. Could be unrelated.

 

[DaHilg]

aside from the eagles all remaining teams are there due to qb play - due to their qbs rising in the moment - and hurts isn't even a choker - hurts just has to not hurt phillys chances and they're tough

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Every team here has a near complete solid roster too to bottom (people don’t realize the overhaul Washington did on this board).. and they all have much much better Olines