Kyler Murray in 5 Years

[NJCardFan]

So... wait. Are you saying that the Colts were ACTUALLY GOOD, but they just didn't try in 2011? I think we can all agree that Curtis Painter is bad, but that team was built around Manning's unique talents, and when you replace him with a replacement-level QB (like Orlovsky) then you're going to win 5 games.

They were the same team that won 10 games the previous season with the one glaring difference being no Manning. Name me another team that won double digit games one year then 2 the next. The Colts tanked for Luck. That was obvious.

 

[Krangodnzr]

They were the same team that won 10 games the previous season with the one glaring difference being no Manning. Name me another team that won double digit games one year then 2 the next. The Colts tanked for Luck. That was obvious.

No it wasn't. That was a really bad football team. Really bad.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Most guys that are 6'5+ don't succeed, just like most guys sub 6'0 don't succeed. No one is saying the taller the better. 6'2-6'4 seems to be about where you want to be.

Sub 6'0 guys don't get a chance. Such a ridiculous argument. How can a player not succeed if they are never given a chance??

You keep making this claim but back it up with nothing. How many sub-6'0 QBs that were given a chance have failed over the past 40 years? The number would be really small.

 

[Buckybird]

Sub 6'0 guys don't get a chance. Such a ridiculous argument. How can a player not succeed if they are never given a chance??

You keep making this claim but back it up with nothing. How many sub-6'0 QBs that were given a chance have failed over the past 40 years? The number would be really small.

You can’t argue with a guy who despises Murray & his abilities & craves the desire to say “see I told you so” in 3 years & probably year 1 if he doesn’t light it up.

 

[DVontel]

The supporting cast around Peyton fell off considerably in 2010. Hence when 2011 came, there wasn’t much of a shock of how bad they were.

 

[Solar7]

Sub 6'0 guys don't get a chance. Such a ridiculous argument. How can a player not succeed if they are never given a chance??

You keep making this claim but back it up with nothing. How many sub-6'0 QBs that were given a chance have failed over the past 40 years? The number would be really small.

Dude, I already gave you a huge list in a thread about 3 weeks ago. It's not my fault if you didn't read it.

It included Heisman winners and all kinds of athletic talents of multiple ethnicities. How about you provide me with some QBs that were sub-6'0 college stars and "just didn't get a chance?"

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

They were the same team that won 10 games the previous season with the one glaring difference being no Manning. Name me another team that won double digit games one year then 2 the next. The Colts tanked for Luck. That was obvious.

Manning is one of the greatest QBs of all time. Having a healthy Peyton as your starter is a near guarantee of 10+ wins. Them winning 10 games with Manning is nowhere near proof that they were actually a good roster. It really doesn't compare to the Cards winning 8 games with a combination of Palmer, Stanton and Gabbert as the starter.

 

[kerouac9]

Peterson and Miller were in a different class than Winston....they were in Cam Newton's class.

Oof, you're right. What a stink bomb that draft class was:

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2015

D.J. Humphries might end up being one of the five best first-round picks in that class! Yikes.

 

[Solar7]

Actually @Krangthebrain, here's the list again:
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3954738/

 

[kerouac9]

ESPN Power Rankings: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-rankings-projected-wins-playoff-chances-1-32
Second to last.

Cardinals projected winless season: https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/22/nfl-win-loss-predictions-az-arizona-cardinals-winless/

Here's a great compilation of bad press: https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2...the-expectations-for-the-cardinals-be-in-2019

Sure, I've seen that we'll have the "most impactful" rookie class, but that's because we're such a bad team that there's guys into the 5th round that might see significant playing time for us.

Yeah. I feel like the perception right now is that the Cards could be exciting but they're an absolute trainwreck right now.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Winston was a consensus #1 pick because the Bucs had made it clear they were taking a QB and it came down to those two guys. Von Miller could've (and probably should've, even though I was skeptical about his size) been the #1 overall selection, and Patrick Peterson was in the mix as well.

I put Winston in the same class as a prospect as Jared Goff — best quarterback in the class, and so taken #1 overall, but he doesn't stack up as a prospect to Eli and Andrew Luck (or Michael Vick).

http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2015/s...nston-biggest-gamble-modern-nfl-draft-history

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ng-winston-in-nfl-draft-idUSKBN0NK2BK20150430



https://deadspin.com/nfl-exec-drafting-jameis-winston-will-be-a-horrible-m-1700023804



https://nflmocks.com/2014/10/20/2015-nfl-draft-will-take-jameis-winston-plunge/

https://www.thehuddlereport.com/archive/2015profiles/Jameis.Winston.htm

That’s a whole lot about character concerns and not a whole lot about in the field concerns and he still has been less than advertised. And Winston was being touted as the number one pick the year before he was even eligible for the draft. He was consensus because he was the most talented QB and that’s a common denominator for #1 overall choices, not an exception to the rule.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

ESPN Power Rankings: http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...-rankings-projected-wins-playoff-chances-1-32
Second to last.

Cardinals projected winless season: https://cardswire.usatoday.com/2019/04/22/nfl-win-loss-predictions-az-arizona-cardinals-winless/

Here's a great compilation of bad press: https://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2...the-expectations-for-the-cardinals-be-in-2019

Sure, I've seen that we'll have the "most impactful" rookie class, but that's because we're such a bad team that there's guys into the 5th round that might see significant playing time for us.

You’re talking about projections now. What we were talking about was whether the steps they’ve taken have been positively and by and large they have been, with outliers here and there.

 

[NJCardFan]

No it wasn't. That was a really bad football team. Really bad.

They were a bad football team because they were missing an important cog. Again, show me a team that won 10 games, then 2, then 11. It never happened at any point in time in the history of the league. When it became apparent that Manning wasn't going to be able to play in 2011 they didn't even try to get a viable replacement even though players like Michael Vick, Alex Smith, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck, and even Mark Brunnell were all available who were far and above better options than Painter or Orlovsky but they decided to run out a bunch of stiffs that year knowing they'd suck.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Dude, I already gave you a huge list in a thread about 3 weeks ago. It's not my fault if you didn't read it.

It included Heisman winners and all kinds of athletic talents of multiple ethnicities. How about you provide me with some QBs that were sub-6'0 college stars and "just didn't get a chance?"

Huge list? Where. Post a link.

How many were ACTUALLY given a chance?

 

[Krangodnzr]

They were a bad football team because they were missing an important cog. Again, show me a team that won 10 games, then 2, then 11. It never happened at any point in time in the history of the league. When it became apparent that Manning wasn't going to be able to play in 2011 they didn't even try to get a viable replacement even though players like Michael Vick, Alex Smith, Marc Bulger, Matt Hasselbeck, and even Mark Brunnell were all available who were far and above better options than Painter or Orlovsky but they decided to run out a bunch of stiffs that year knowing they'd suck.

They were a bad football team. Bad. Needed pass rushers, receivers, running backs, OL....That entire roster wasn't good.

Manning was just that good back then. He could make a bad team a playoff team.

 

[kerouac9]

You’re talking about projections now. What we were talking about was whether the steps they’ve taken have been positively and by and large they have been, with outliers here and there.

For someone who's quick to demand links from others, you're pretty stingy providing your own. Outside of PFF and the Ringer, who are these people?

 

[Solar7]

Huge list? Where. Post a link.

How many were ACTUALLY given a chance?

I posted it above. Not every player gets the chance to be picked #1 overall and start from day 1, not even Tom Brady. So...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Actually @Krangthebrain, here's the list again:
https://www.arizonasportsfans.com/forum/posts/3954738/

WOW that's a "huge" list.

Now add Russell Wilson and Drew Brees to that list. You have three successful 6'0 and below QBs (including Vick"). That's a 33% success rate, and that's considering most of those guys were really untalented scrubs, that were untalented regardless of their height.

And only four of those guys were picked in the first three rounds.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I posted it above. Not every player gets the chance to be picked #1 overall and start from day 1, not even Tom Brady. So...

Most NFL QB starters weren't late round picks.

 

[Solar7]

WOW that's a "huge" list.

Now add Russell Wilson and Drew Brees to that list. You have three successful 6'0 and below QBs (including Vick"). That's a 33% success rate, and that's considering most of those guys were really untalented scrubs, that were untalented regardless of their height.

And only four of those guys were picked in the first three rounds.

I said I could go further. You haven't even provided one outside of "muh russ" and "muh drew" to show a trend. Two ridiculously outside outliers.

And untalented? The list includes two Heisman Trophy winners, two players who set the record for NCAA passing yards in their respective generations, two players who were runner-ups for the Heisman and were 1st round picks... The only one on that list who you might call untalented is Seneca Wallace.

Just because you call them "untalented scrubs" doesn't mean that most of the guys on that list don't hold the kinds of prestige in college football that proves they're among the best college football players of all time. Which as of right now, is all your boy Kyler can lay claim to.

Edit: And now the burden of proof is on your shoulders: please, name some players who were really great, but short, and "just didn't get a chance."

You haven't even provided a single example.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I said I could go further. You haven't even provided one outside of "muh russ" and "muh drew" to show a trend. Two ridiculously outside outliers.

And untalented? The list includes two Heisman Trophy winners, two players who set the record for NCAA passing yards in their respective generations, two players who were runner-ups for the Heisman and were 1st round picks... The only one on that list who you might call untalented is Seneca Wallace.

Just because you call them "untalented scrubs" doesn't mean that most of the guys on that list don't hold the kinds of prestige in college football that proves they're among the best college football players of all time. Which as of right now, is all your boy Kyler can lay claim to.

Edit: And now the burden of proof is on your shoulders: please, name some players who were really great, but short, and "just didn't get a chance."

You haven't even provided a single example.

No matter what list you create you will find that a small percentage actually succeed at the NFL level. All successful QBs in the NFL are outliers in some way or another.

Sure you could make the list longer for those short guys that failed, but you can also make a much longer list for short QBs that were successful.

Here is a link to a list of 10 short QBs that had some NFL success and I would say at least 5-7 of them were good NFL QBs.

https://nationalfootballpost.com/the-nfls-best-short-quarterbacks-of-alltime/

 

[Ronin]

I am buying low, so I am saying top 20 average. It seems feasible.

 

[Garthshort]

Any FB stuff is good, imo. However, I'm more interested in five months than five years.

 

[Krangodnzr]

No matter what list you create you will find that a small percentage actually succeed at the NFL level. All successful QBs in the NFL are outliers in some way or another.

Sure you could make the list longer for those short guys that failed, but you can also make a much longer list for short QBs that were successful.

Here is a link to a list of 10 short QBs that had some NFL success and I would say at least 5-7 of them were good NFL QBs.

https://nationalfootballpost.com/the-nfls-best-short-quarterbacks-of-alltime/

It's not worth it. His logic is so completely flawed that he isn't capable of seeing how bad his argument is.

Height has been, and will continue to be, the worst trait to compare QBs. Look at arm strength, accuracy, mobility, ability to read a defense, and ability to complete passes under pressure. NOT HEIGHT. That's how big stiff, poopy college QBs keep getting drafted high. Murray showed up to OTAs weighing 211, so there goes that too frail argument as well.

Take Haskins for example. He threw a lot of short passes, his accuracy struggled a bit with deep passes, and he fell apart under pressure. But because he's closer to the NFL desired measureables, no one is arguing whether he should be a top pick. Murray was literally better at every other facet of QB play other than height.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Edit: And now the burden of proof is on your shoulders: please, name some players who were really great, but short, and "just didn't get a chance."

You haven't even provided a single example.

PFFT

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/3/6/17070902/lamar-jackson-quarterbacks-convert-wide-receiver

https://www.foxsports.com/other/story/tall-tale-story-of-short-nfl-qbs-is-well-short-052512

Tons of examples.