Kyler Murray To the Deep End of the Pool

[Krangodnzr]

I'm not sold on Mariota at all, I just don't think he is much of a passing QB. Vicks problem, other than the dog fighting stuff, was the fact he couldn't read a defense. All though on the college level, I've watched KM read defenses, go to his 2nd & 3rd options & throw on the run. Accurately & off of one foot. We'll see how well that translates in the NFL but I have faith it will.

Mariota was at his best when he didnt throw from the pocket. That was a warning flag to me. His last season at Oregon he struggled some because they tried to keep him in the pocket more.

I just laugh at the comparison to these two, because Murray is just so much better throwing from the pocket compared to these two. Murray had well over DOUBLE Vick's last season passing yards. He basically threw for as many yards as Vick did in his VT career in one season at OU. The only comparison is that they are shorter, black, and can both run. Vick played in a run heavy offense.

 

[Solar7]

Mariota was at his best when he didnt throw from the pocket. That was a warning flag to me. His last season at Oregon he struggled some because they tried to keep him in the pocket more.

I just laugh at the comparison to these two, because Murray is just so much better throwing from the pocket compared to these two. Murray had well over DOUBLE Vick's last season passing yards. He basically threw for as many yards as Vick did in his VT career in one season at OU. The only comparison is that they are shorter, black, and can both run. Vick played in a run heavy offense.

You're not getting my "comparison" then.

Ryan Tannehill we'll start using as the comparison besides those guys then. The point is not what their physical profile or ability is, it's that the players flashed some strong points to their game, weren't complete failures, but ultimately were not the guy to take their teams to the top.

There's just not a ton of examples of these guys for me to draw from in the past 20-30 years that we're first round picks.

 

[JeffGollin]

He’s a football player. As opposed to Rosen who is a smart guy that throws footballs. I like our chances on this one.

A rule of thumb that's always served me well is that when a player demonstrates he has a freakish skill-set, he has a better likelihood of succeeding than if he didn't. (We watched him do it/he is capable of doing it again).

It doesn't guarantee stardom, but it does improve his odds of doing so.

This may be one of those "floor/ceiling" kind of deals.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not good enough to win it all, not bad enough to make him an abject failure, the end.

So by your definition every single QB the cards have ever had, were either mediocre or terrible for us. Including Kurt and Palmer.

 

[Solar7]

So by your definition every single QB the cards have ever had, were either mediocre or terrible for us. Including Kurt and Palmer.

We didn't invest the first overall pick for them, or waste a 1st, 3rd, and 5th to give away a guy I think could have just as easily been good enough to be what I think Kyler will be.

Palmer and Warner are obvious exceptions, and if you don't think they were clearly better players, and less of an investment than the two-three guys I'm talking about (Vick, Mariota, Tannehill), I don't know what to tell you.

 

[DVontel]

I’m just ready to see Kyler make Solar eat crow while Kirk Cousins does what Kirk Cousins does.

 

[Solar7]

I’m just ready to see Kyler make Solar eat crow while Kirk Cousins does what Kirk Cousins does.

Care to make a friendly bet on who has the better statistical season and more wins?

Edit: Because if anyone else is betting on Kyler to complete 70% of his passes, throw for over 4,000 yards and 30 TDs, and win 8 games, I will also take that bet.

 

[DVontel]

Care to make a friendly bet on who has the better statistical season and more wins?

Edit: Because if anyone else is betting on Kyler to complete 70% of his passes, throw for over 4,000 yards and 30 TDs, and win 8 games, I will also take that bet.

No. It’s obvious Minnesota has the better team. I would be dumb to accept that.

Kyler should be able to mirror that after his rookie year too if it’s against mainly bad teams or garbage time.

 

[Solar7]

No. It’s obvious Minnesota has the better team. I would be dumb to accept that.

Kyler should be able to mirror that after his rookie year too if it’s against mainly bad teams or garbage time.

Yeah, so I doubt I'll be eating crow when the Vikings are playing for a playoff spot and we're chasing moral victories.

It's additionally silly when I've already come out and said I was wrong about Cousins' fit on this team. Already got my serving of crow out of the way.

 

[DVontel]

Yeah, so I doubt I'll be eating crow when the Vikings are playing for a playoff spot and we're chasing moral victories.

It's additionally silly when I've already come out and said I was wrong about Cousins' fit on this team. Already got my serving of crow out of the way.

Nah, I meant more so Kyler living up to his billing of being a great QB which would have you eat crow. Kirk Cousins holding back Minnesota again would just be icing on top.

 

[slanidrac16]

Solar7, do you like white meat or dark? Would you like some hog mauls on the side? Lol!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

We didn't invest the first overall pick for them, or waste a 1st, 3rd, and 5th to give away a guy I think could have just as easily been good enough to be what I think Kyler will be.

Palmer and Warner are obvious exceptions, and if you don't think they were clearly better players, and less of an investment than the two-three guys I'm talking about (Vick, Mariota, Tannehill), I don't know what to tell you.

Your argument is that you think kyler would be average. Then you set the parameters of win it all or you’re average. Just taking what YOU said to it’s logical conclusion. Personally I don’t consider Palmer or Kurt average just bc they didn’t win it all. I suggest you go back and read your post I quoted.

 

[Solar7]

Your argument is that you think kyler would be average. Then you set the parameters of win it all or you’re average. Just taking what YOU said to it’s logical conclusion. Personally I don’t consider Palmer or Kurt average just bc they didn’t win it all. I suggest you go back and read your post I quoted.

You're cherry picking. The point is not about winning it all or not, there's many factors there. My point is about being good enough to put the team in position to win it all. Which none of these guys were. Kurt was, Palmer might have been if not for getting derailed by injury multiple times.

No other QB that this team has had in AZ besides those two were good enough for sustained success.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

You're cherry picking. The point is not about winning it all or not, there's many factors there. My point is about being good enough to put the team in position to win it all. Which none of these guys were. Kurt was, Palmer might have been if not for getting derailed by injury multiple times.

No other QB that this team has had in AZ besides those two were good enough for sustained success.

And that includes, in the estimation of the Cardinals' personnel leadership, Josh Rosen, Solar7.

Which is precisely why this same group chose to draft Murray. They concluded that K1 has the innate talent to help lead our team to a NFL Championship.

Solar7, I'd prefer that you stay with the theme that Murray will at times struggle during his first year with our team. That is almost certainly true, and in this regard, I really don't mind you tempering expectations a bit.

 

[Solar7]

And that includes, in the estimation of the Cardinals' personnel leadership, Josh Rosen, Solar7.

Which is precisely why this same group chose to draft Murray. They concluded that K1 has the innate talent to help lead our team to a NFL Championship.

Solar7, I'd prefer that you stay with the theme that Murray will at times struggle during his first year with our team. That is almost certainly true, and in this regard, I really don't mind you tempering expectations a bit.

I mean, my point all along has really been that I don't think this team is much better with Murray than it was with Rosen. I'm worried we're a 4-win team next year and staring down Tua at the top of the draft and can't take him, having to roll the dice on another year of Kyler.

 

[Mainstreet]

I mean, my point all along has really been that I don't think this team is much better with Murray than it was with Rosen. I'm worried we're a 4-win team next year and staring down Tua at the top of the draft and can't take him, having to roll the dice on another year of Kyler.

Were you planning two losing seasons with Rosen for another early draft pick?

 

[Solar7]

Were you planning two losing seasons with Rosen for another early draft pick?

Yeah, I figured this year would be rocky no matter what, and that maybe we would get lucky and Rosen would bloom under KK, leaving us without a need at QB. But you can look back at my posts from last year - before we ended up with Rosen, I was unenthused about taking a 1st round QB outside of the top two, because history basically doesn't support their success. Now, I had Darnold and Rosen as 1a and 1b, so I was reasonably more comfortable with the pick, but my overall point from then still stands.

Very much a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation, IMO. Looking ahead, things feel like they're gonna get sticky.

 

[elindholm]

I love my Athletic subscription. Great articles like this for all my teams.

Would it be fair to call you an Athletic supporter?

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah, I figured this year would be rocky no matter what, and that maybe we would get lucky and Rosen would bloom under KK, leaving us without a need at QB. But you can look back at my posts from last year - before we ended up with Rosen, I was unenthused about taking a 1st round QB outside of the top two, because history basically doesn't support their success. Now, I had Darnold and Rosen as 1a and 1b, so I was reasonably more comfortable with the pick, but my overall point from then still stands.

Very much a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation, IMO. Looking ahead, things feel like they're gonna get sticky.

Hopefully Murray will bloom under Kingsbury as well. It doesn't hurt to be optimistic.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Would it be fair to call you an Athletic supporter?

Hilarious!

 

[Solar7]

Hopefully Murray will bloom under Kingsbury as well. It doesn't hurt to be optimistic.

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not against optimism, and I'm now in wait and see mode, but I still get riled up when people make way over the top claims. I also have too much time on my hands, which leads to arguing, haha.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I mean, my point all along has really been that I don't think this team is much better with Murray than it was with Rosen. I'm worried we're a 4-win team next year and staring down Tua at the top of the draft and can't take him, having to roll the dice on another year of Kyler.

And that's where you and I part ways sir. I think we're significantly better, but at this point, that's only conjecture.

However, every time that you post that everything is up in the air, that we have no idea if KK can get a team ready for a game on Sunday, or if K1 can effectively read an NFL defense, you're correct. I won't fault you for posting that, even repetitively.

Being both a head coach and a QB in the NFL involve different overall skill sets versus those same roles in college, and both KK and K1 are going to make mistakes because of the lack of experience they have at this level.

If we come out of the gate on fire, great. I'm not saying it's impossible, and it would be awesome to see K1 and KK take the NFL by storm. But that's not the bar for "success" in 2019 for me.

My minimum expectations for this year are that we show growth as the season progresses, and that we finish the season looking dangerous, and ready to do some damage in 2020.

 

[Solar7]

And that's where you and I part ways sir. I think we're significantly better, but at this point, that's only conjecture.

However, every time that you post that everything is up in the air, that we have no idea if KK can get a team ready for a game on Sunday, or if K1 can effectively read an NFL defense, you're correct. I won't fault you for posting that, even repetitively.

Being both a head coach and a QB in the NFL involve different overall skill sets versus those same roles in college, and both KK and K1 are going to make mistakes because of the lack of experience they have at this level.

If we come out of the gate on fire, great. I'm not saying it's impossible, and it would be awesome to see K1 and KK take the NFL by storm. But that's not the bar for "success" in 2019 for me.

My minimum expectations for this year are that we show growth as the season progresses, and that we finish the season looking dangerous, and ready to do some damage in 2020.

I think we're a more talented team overall than last year, but the way the schedule lays out for us doesn't necessarily help things from a W-L perspective. We're so reliant on rookie everything that the winnable games on the schedule early on are probably going to be real challenges on account of the team coming together and getting used to the NFL. Then the back stretch is brutal, and even if we look pretty good, I think we lose most.

This is a better roster and hopefully better coaching than 2018, but ugh. I guess it doesn't help that I also think the world of Tua.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Technically wouldn't all parts of the pool be the deep end for Murray.

I kid. I kid.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I think we're a more talented team overall than last year, but the way the schedule lays out for us doesn't necessarily help things from a W-L perspective. We're so reliant on rookie everything that the winnable games on the schedule early on are probably going to be real challenges on account of the team coming together and getting used to the NFL. Then the back stretch is brutal, and even if we look pretty good, I think we lose most.

This is a better roster and hopefully better coaching than 2018, but ugh. I guess it doesn't help that I also think the world of Tua.

The bolded underscores maybe the worst thing we face going into this season, and that is we can leverage almost nothing from last year.

Last season was supposed to be our "make-rookie-mistakes-but-at-least-we'll-be-better-for-it-next-year" experience.

But no, we have to endure that again this year. That's why I'd like everyone to refill the break fluid.

Also, Solar7, you'll forget about Tua when you see Murray run around Defensive lineman like they're traffic cones.