Kyler Murray To the Deep End of the Pool

[Chris_Sanders]

Would it be fair to call you an Athletic supporter?

Well played

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah, I figured this year would be rocky no matter what, and that maybe we would get lucky and Rosen would bloom under KK, leaving us without a need at QB. But you can look back at my posts from last year - before we ended up with Rosen, I was unenthused about taking a 1st round QB outside of the top two, because history basically doesn't support their success. Now, I had Darnold and Rosen as 1a and 1b, so I was reasonably more comfortable with the pick, but my overall point from then still stands.

Very much a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation, IMO. Looking ahead, things feel like they're gonna get sticky.

I was

1 Mayfield
2 Darnold
3 Rosen
4 Jackson






15 Josh Allen

If Murray was in that group it would go today:
1. Mayfield
1b. Murray
3 Darnold
4 Allen
5 Rosen
6 Jackson

I would take Mayfield over Murray because I like/d Mayfield a lot. I think Mayfield is going to be a top 5 QB for the next 10+ years. I think Murray has a higher ceiling, but doesn't have as much tape. Darnold was my #2 last year, and he showed enough to remain there. Allen jumps Rosen because he was better than Rosen with an arguably worse supporting cast. Jackson moved to the back of the line because he isn't very good at the most important skills for a QB, reading defenses and accuracy.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The bolded underscores maybe the worst thing we face going into this season, and that is we can leverage almost nothing from last year.

Last season was supposed to be our "make-rookie-mistakes-but-at-least-we'll-be-better-for-it-next-year" experience.

But no, we have to endure that again this year. That's why I'd like everyone to refill the break fluid.

Also, Solar7, you'll forget about Tua when you see Murray run around Defensive lineman like they're traffic cones.

David Johnson I guess has been messing with Chandler Jones because Murray moves away from and around pass rushers so easily in practice. Like chasing a chicken.

It's funny that people on here will knock Murray for his supporting cast, but on other threads talk up Tua and Lawrence, who easily have quite a bit better supporting casts.

 

[Solar7]

David Johnson I guess has been messing with Chandler Jones because Murray moves away from and around pass rushers so easily in practice. Like chasing a chicken.

It's funny that people on here will knock Murray for his supporting cast, but on other threads talk up Tua and Lawrence, who easily have quite a bit better supporting casts.

Both guys have a bit of a raised eyebrow because of the talent, but I see them make contested throws when I watch them. Again, I'm not saying Murray can't put it into tight windows, but that he didn't have to very often, and that's what concerns me about the tape.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

David Johnson I guess has been messing with Chandler Jones because Murray moves away from and around pass rushers so easily in practice. Like chasing a chicken.

It's funny that people on here will knock Murray for his supporting cast, but on other threads talk up Tua and Lawrence, who easily have quite a bit better supporting casts.

Yeah. There are some things that we can be confident Murray will do. One is evade NFL D-lineman.

Two is beat NFL LBs to the corner. It won't be as easy as it was in college, but Murray vs. KJ Wright or Wagner from SEA for example, is still a mismatch.

 

[BigRedRage]

jesus, you guys are still debating this crap?

 

[Solar7]

jesus, you guys are still debating this crap?

Forever!

 

[Ronin]

Forever!

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[TJ]

David Johnson I guess has been messing with Chandler Jones because Murray moves away from and around pass rushers so easily in practice. Like chasing a chicken.

It's funny that people on here will knock Murray for his supporting cast, but on other threads talk up Tua and Lawrence, who easily have quite a bit better supporting casts.

Tua and Lawrence are underclassmen who played against stiffer competition throughout the entire season. Murray was a QB who needed to transfer schools and couldnt move up the depth chart until his 4th year of college to start and play against Swiss cheese defenses. That’s with being on teams laden with 4-and-5-star talent at both A&M and OU.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Tua and Lawrence are underclassmen who played against stiffer competition throughout the entire season. Murray was a QB who needed to transfer schools and couldnt move up the depth chart until his 4th year of college to start and play against Swiss cheese defenses. That’s with being on teams laden with 4-and-5-star talent at both A&M and OU.

I mean Mayfield also had to leave a school to get his chance to start full time and he was the guy in front of Murray at OU. Hard to fault Murray for not being able to surpass what was already a proven great college QB in Mayfield that was also in his senior year. Even if he outperformed Mayfield in practice he wasn't going to take that starting job from him.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Tua and Lawrence are underclassmen who played against stiffer competition throughout the entire season. Murray was a QB who needed to transfer schools and couldnt move up the depth chart until his 4th year of college to start and play against Swiss cheese defenses. That’s with being on teams laden with 4-and-5-star talent at both A&M and OU.

False narrative. He was the starter when he transferred. He had to sit out a year and during that time, Baker Mayfield exploded.

Stiffer competition? Yeah with even better talent.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Tua and Lawrence are underclassmen who played against stiffer competition throughout the entire season. Murray was a QB who needed to transfer schools and couldnt move up the depth chart until his 4th year of college to start and play against Swiss cheese defenses. That’s with being on teams laden with 4-and-5-star talent at both A&M and OU.

Tua maybe played against a better overall schedule. Probably. But his offense was backed by an excellent defense as well. Murray had the pressure to score on every possession most games, and came through. Tua was playing from way ahead most games, thanks in part to his ability, but also thanks in part to his defense. So pretty different situations.

And Lawrence? He plays in the ACC TJ.

The same ACC that fired an awful, 6-5 Pittsburgh team into the conference championship game vs. Clemson. Pittsburgh probably wasn't a top 50 team, but was the best the seven team ACC Coastal division had to offer.

If you say the ACC is better than any other Power Five conference, either you're trolling, or you're dangerously uneducated about college football.

At least OU had to beat a stout Texas Longhorn squad for the Big XII final. The same Texas team that went on to beat the SEC's other darling, Georgia.

Stick to the narrative that Murray's game won't translate into the NFL TJ. You sound less silly.

 

[Solar7]

Tua maybe played against a better overall schedule. Probably. But his offense was backed by an excellent defense as well. Murray had the pressure to score on every possession most games, and came through. Tua was playing from way ahead most games, thanks in part to his ability, but also thanks in part to his defense. So pretty different situations.

And Lawrence? He plays in the ACC TJ.

The same ACC that fired an awful, 6-5 Pittsburgh team into the conference championship game vs. Clemson. Pittsburgh probably wasn't a top 50 team, but was the best the seven team ACC Coastal division had to offer.

If you say the ACC is better than any other Power Five conference, either you're trolling, or you're dangerously uneducated about college football.

At least OU had to beat a stout Texas Longhorn squad for the Big XII final. The same Texas team that went on to beat the SEC's other darling, Georgia.

Stick to the narrative that Murray's game won't translate into the NFL TJ. You sound less silly.

TJ doesn't sound "silly" at all. Tua won a National Championship in one of the highest pressure moments a kid has ever had to face in college ball, he played against amazing competition, and he'll have at least another year to prove it all over again. And he beat your boy, straight up. Same thing with Lawrence - sure, the ACC isn't that good, but he showed the ability to take that team all the way to the championship and punch the most talented team in the NCAA right in the mouth, as a freshman. He'll have two years to back that up even more, but Lawrence is currently the closest thing we have to an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning, where unless something wild happens, he'll be what every club is drooling over as the next sure thing.

Maybe Kyler is great, but at the end of it all, we're going to have a lot more tape and evidence from Tua and Lawrence before they're drafted than we do for Kyler.

 

[DVontel]

You can easily argue Kyler would’ve done the same thing with Clemson, but unfortunately, I hate hypotheticals for the most part so I would sound like a hypocrite.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

TJ doesn't sound "silly" at all. Tua won a National Championship in one of the highest pressure moments a kid has ever had to face in college ball, he played against amazing competition, and he'll have at least another year to prove it all over again. And he beat your boy, straight up. Same thing with Lawrence - sure, the ACC isn't that good, but he showed the ability to take that team all the way to the championship and punch the most talented team in the NCAA right in the mouth, as a freshman. He'll have two years to back that up even more, but Lawrence is currently the closest thing we have to an Andrew Luck or Peyton Manning, where unless something wild happens, he'll be what every club is drooling over as the next sure thing.

Maybe Kyler is great, but at the end of it all, we're going to have a lot more tape and evidence from Tua and Lawrence before they're drafted than we do for Kyler.

Solar7, I was not debating that either Tua or Lawrence are excellent QBs. Tua is, and Lawrence probably will be.

But TJ's point was that "Tua and Lawrence played against better competition than Murray". Again, my rebuttal is:

1. Tua probably did play against marginally better competition, but was also backed by a much superior defense, which makes a difference in terms of in-game situations that each QB faced.

2. Lawrence played in the awful ACC, and therefore it's not even reasonable to say that he played against better competition (and he was also backed by a great, great defense). To say Lawrence faced better competition is silly.

Also Solar7, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tua get pulled from the National Championship Game against Clemson (in favor of Jalen Hurts)?

Not exactly a highlight reel moment for your boy.

 

[TJ]

Tua maybe played against a better overall schedule. Probably. But his offense was backed by an excellent defense as well. Murray had the pressure to score on every possession most games, and came through. Tua was playing from way ahead most games, thanks in part to his ability, but also thanks in part to his defense. So pretty different situations.

And Lawrence? He plays in the ACC TJ.

The same ACC that fired an awful, 6-5 Pittsburgh team into the conference championship game vs. Clemson. Pittsburgh probably wasn't a top 50 team, but was the best the seven team ACC Coastal division had to offer.

If you say the ACC is better than any other Power Five conference, either you're trolling, or you're dangerously uneducated about college football.

At least OU had to beat a stout Texas Longhorn squad for the Big XII final. The same Texas team that went on to beat the SEC's other darling, Georgia.

Stick to the narrative that Murray's game won't translate into the NFL TJ. You sound less silly.

Anyone who would rank the PAC-12 over the ACC in football is either trolling, or dangerously uneducated about college football, so you can hard stop with that narrative. And if I'm ranking teams from each conference based on their bottom-feeders, then the Big-10 should be discounted for having Rutgers, the PAC-12 for ntOSU, the Big-12 for having Kansas, and the SEC for having Vanderbilt.

The facts of the matter are that Trevor Lawrence and Tua were able to climb up the depth charts as underclassmen against other 4-and-5-star QBs on their respective roster. Kyler was not. Kyler couldn't even beat out freaking Kyle Allen at A&M, who looked like he didn't belong in college football, even at Houston. Even Tua was able to beat out a fan-favorite, very good Jalen Hurts at Bama.

You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in Kyler succeeding at the next level beyond the fact that he plays for the Arizona Cardinals and will react accordingly, but don't let that get in the way of accepting the facts, which was that Kyler wasn't good enough to supplant a number of college QBs until his final season.

 

[TJ]

Stiffer competition? Yeah with even better talent.

If the talent is better, it's a razor-thin margin at best. Bama, Clemson, and OU are always neck-and-neck in final recruiting rankings.

 

[DVontel]

Anyone who would rank the PAC-12 over the ACC in football is either trolling, or dangerously uneducated about college football, so you can hard stop with that narrative. And if I'm ranking teams from each conference based on their bottom-feeders, then the Big-10 should be discounted for having Rutgers, the PAC-12 for ntOSU, the Big-12 for having Kansas, and the SEC for having Vanderbilt.

The facts of the matter are that Trevor Lawrence and Tua were able to climb up the depth charts as underclassmen against other 4-and-5-star QBs on their respective roster. Kyler was not. Kyler couldn't even beat out freaking Kyle Allen at A&M, who looked like he didn't belong in college football, even at Houston. Even Tua was able to beat out a fan-favorite, very good Jalen Hurts at Bama.

You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in Kyler succeeding at the next level beyond the fact that he plays for the Arizona Cardinals and will react accordingly, but don't let that get in the way of accepting the facts, which was that Kyler wasn't good enough to supplant a number of college QBs until his final season.

Where did you get the PAC 12 from?

 

[TJ]

Where did you get the PAC 12 from?

He said the ACC was the worst conference of the Power 5.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Anyone who would rank the PAC-12 over the ACC in football is either trolling, or dangerously uneducated about college football, so you can hard stop with that narrative. And if I'm ranking teams from each conference based on their bottom-feeders, then the Big-10 should be discounted for having Rutgers, the PAC-12 for ntOSU, the Big-12 for having Kansas, and the SEC for having Vanderbilt.

The facts of the matter are that Trevor Lawrence and Tua were able to climb up the depth charts as underclassmen against other 4-and-5-star QBs on their respective roster. Kyler was not. Kyler couldn't even beat out freaking Kyle Allen at A&M, who looked like he didn't belong in college football, even at Houston. Even Tua was able to beat out a fan-favorite, very good Jalen Hurts at Bama.

You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in Kyler succeeding at the next level beyond the fact that he plays for the Arizona Cardinals and will react accordingly, but don't let that get in the way of accepting the facts, which was that Kyler wasn't good enough to supplant a number of college QBs until his final season.

Haha. Okay, maybe the ACC was better than Pac XII, but the Pac XII was an embarrassment itself.

The point remains that the ACC was pretty terrible, and Lawrence played against a lot of weak teams. Just like it was 30 minutes ago, it's still not reasonable to say that Lawrence "played against better competition than Murray".

And TJ? The fact that, in 2017, Murray couldn't beat out the eventual Heisman Trophy Winner Baker Mayfield? I can live with that bro. That's okay. If it's not okay for you, cool. You keep defending that hill.

And just like Krang alluded to, Mayfield left texas tech under questionable circumstances after his freshman year. So what?

The fact that Murray left a dysfunctional A&M program after his freshman year, again, just not a big deal man. He was what, 19, 20 at the most when he left, in good order, and transferred to OU? I mean, it kind of looks like Murray pulled the right string back then doesn't it? What is Kevin Sumlin doing these days anyway? He sure as hell isn't still coaching at A&M.

All of your points in this thread have been thoroughly examined sir. They have been given a fair analysis.

And while I'm not saying they're meaningless, there are certainly very compelling, and reasonable, counter-arguments to all of them.

And in the end TJ, the Cardinals player-personnel executives, who get paid large amounts of money to do what they do, sided with me, and the rest of Team Murray. Not with Captain Steal Yo Girl.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

He said the ACC was the worst conference of the Power 5.

Just *ucking not true man. Lol.. I said that:

If you say the ACC is better than any other Power Five conference, either you're trolling, or you're dangerously uneducated about college football.

There's a difference sir, and shame on you for being disingenuous. You disappoint me TJ.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Anyone who would rank the PAC-12 over the ACC in football is either trolling, or dangerously uneducated about college football, so you can hard stop with that narrative. And if I'm ranking teams from each conference based on their bottom-feeders, then the Big-10 should be discounted for having Rutgers, the PAC-12 for ntOSU, the Big-12 for having Kansas, and the SEC for having Vanderbilt.

Ranking conferences by their worst teams is a ridiculous approach. A better approach is to look at how many ranked teams they have. I would put the ACC and the PAC-10 in about the same category, but I do think the ACC generally has better talent since some of the schools (Clemson and to a lesser extent the NC schools) are recruiting more talented football areas.

The facts of the matter are that Trevor Lawrence and Tua were able to climb up the depth charts as underclassmen against other 4-and-5-star QBs on their respective roster. Kyler was not. Kyler couldn't even beat out freaking Kyle Allen at A&M, who looked like he didn't belong in college football, even at Houston. Even Tua was able to beat out a fan-favorite, very good Jalen Hurts at Bama.

Jalen Hurts? That dude was sub par. Alabama has generally had meh talent at QB most years. It's one of the greater mysteries of the SEC; all this great football talent, but generally NOT at QB. Trevor Lawrence is a great QB...but the guy he beat out, Bryant, wasn't a great talent either.

Murray wasn't really ready as a freshman, though he made history when he was one of like two QBs in history to throw for over 200 yards and run for over 100 yards in his first start. Murray was jerked around by Sumlin and staff just like Kyle Allen was. I think Wildcat fans are seeing just how good Kevin Sumlin is....man that dude is not a good coach.

You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in Kyler succeeding at the next level beyond the fact that he plays for the Arizona Cardinals and will react accordingly, but don't let that get in the way of accepting the facts, which was that Kyler wasn't good enough to supplant a number of college QBs until his final season.

LOL you are being ridiculous. Kyler WAS the starter when he transferred from Texas A&M. He transferred to OU who already had Baker Mayfield as their starter and then he had to sit out a year. Baker Mayfield was fire, and there wasn't a QB competition when he did get eligibility. After (or during the season, can't remember) the season, Mayfield was granted one more year of eligibility at OU and again, it wasn't open to competition. Mayfield then went on to have, perhaps the best passing season in the history of college football. At worst top three. It's not like he was supplanted by Mike Glennon like Russell Wilson was or Mayfield getting supplanted by Davis Webb. He was kept from the job by the NUMBER ONE OVERALL PICK. At you tout Tua beating out Jalen Hurts who will be lucky to get a shot as a a UDFA or late round pick as it stands right now.

This why, when Kyler Murray tears it up, I'm going to look at posts like this and laugh. It is so obvious that the kid is really good, and has sky high potential and the fact that you don't see it and create all these nonsense arguments against him, makes me feel compelled to respond.

 

[Krangodnzr]

He said the ACC was the worst conference of the Power 5.

#fakenews. Agreed, this is a silly take. PAC 12 is horrific.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Haha. Okay, maybe the ACC was better than Pac XII, but the Pac XII was an embarrassment itself.

The point remains that the ACC was pretty terrible, and Lawrence played against a lot of weak teams. Just like it was 30 minutes ago, it's still not reasonable to say that Lawrence "played against better competition than Murray".

And TJ? The fact that, in 2017, Murray couldn't beat out the eventual Heisman Trophy Winner Baker Mayfield? I can live with that bro. That's okay. If it's not okay for you, cool. You keep defending that hill.

And just like Krang alluded to, Mayfield left texas tech under questionable circumstances after his freshman year. So what?

The fact that Murray left a dysfunctional A&M program after his freshman year, again, just not a big deal man. He was what, 19, 20 at the most when he left, in good order, and transferred to OU? I mean, it kind of looks like Murray pulled the right string back then doesn't it? What is Kevin Sumlin doing these days anyway? He sure as hell isn't still coaching at A&M.

All of your points in this thread have been thoroughly examined sir. They have been given a fair analysis.

And while I'm not saying they're meaningless, they are certainly very compelling, and reasonable, counter-arguments to all of them.

And in the end TJ, the Cardinals player-personnel executives, who get paid large amounts of money to do what they do, sided with me, and the rest of Team Murray. Not with Captain Steal Yo Girl.

Yeah half my family are Clemson Tigers fans and the other half are Gamecocks. For years, Clemson has been ribbed for staying in the ACC while South Carolina jumped to the much more talented SEC.

I often say that Clemson is a really good SEC team playing in the ACC. IF they played in the SEC, they would like lose 1-2 more games every year.

Yeah knocking Murray for leaving TAMU is BS. Kevin Sumlin totally mismanaged TWO 5 star QBs. Both transferred. The 3rd stringer said as much; he said that the QBs would get pulled and the coaching staff wouldn't even tell them why they weren't starting. First it happened to Kyle Allen. Then it happened to Murray. And then they both decided that the coaching staff didn't have their backs.

Kevin Sumlin is doing great things at U of A! Recruiting magic! Didn't they have like the 50th ranked class?

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Yeah half my family are Clemson Tigers fans and the other half are Gamecocks. For years, Clemson has been ribbed for staying in the ACC while South Carolina jumped to the much more talented SEC.

I often say that Clemson is a really good SEC team playing in the ACC. IF they played in the SEC, they would like lose 1-2 more games every year.

Yeah knocking Murray for leaving TAMU is BS. Kevin Sumlin totally mismanaged TWO 5 star QBs. Both transferred. The 3rd stringer said as much; he said that the QBs would get pulled and the coaching staff wouldn't even tell them why they weren't starting. First it happened to Kyle Allen. Then it happened to Murray. And then they both decided that the coaching staff didn't have their backs.

Kevin Sumlin is doing great things at U of A! Recruiting magic! Didn't they have like the 50th ranked class?

So what are you from back east then Krang? Or your folks are?

And yeah, Murray made a tough decision, but the right decision.