Lets say we win the #1 pick

[JCSunsfan]

?!?!?! You mean that sea of whitespace?!?! That is not considered versatility, it is showing that he has no midrange game.

Got to admit. You are committed to your opinion. If I did not know who the players were, I like that bottom chart better than the top. It shows shooting versatility and shot discipline.

 

[slinslin]

Got to admit. You are committed to your opinion. If I did not know who the players were, I like that bottom chart better than the top. It shows shooting versatility and shot discipline.

Sorry but I think it shows you dont really understand what these charts are showing or rather how they are showing it.

If you honestly believe that the bottom chart shows more versatility than the top chart.

Fultz midrage numbers put him around the 78th percentile in the country for those shots.

Pick and Roll numbers for you

scoring
Fultz 1.011 points per play | 93%ile
Ball 0.78 points per play | 58%ile

passing
Fultz 1.086 points per play | 73%ile
Ball 1.094 points per play | 75%ile

And how does Fultz even have on Washington to play pick and roll with? Give him Leaf and Alford and ...

 

[Yuma]

Yes but the main reason Oden went over Durant was the highschool hype of being ranked #1 for a long time.

He wouldn't have that advantage over Fultz who was ranked #1 for a long time also and then the diminished value of old school centers in todays league, there is almost no way he would go ahead of Fultz if he was in the draft now.

The main reason Oden went over Durant was body types. Oden had an NBA Veteran body coming out of High School. Durant had the "bust" factor because he was so skinny and could not out bench press the average women at a Curves!

 

[Yuma]

I like Ball because I have seen highlights of Ball, and have not seen Fultz. That being said, it's who the Suns like. Their penchant for getting Kentucky Wildcats has been fueled by the other Wildcats on the roster. Tyler Ulis was a recommendation by Devon Booker himself. That said, I bet Marquis Chriss will lobby for Fultz if we even have a shot at him.

 

[slinslin]

Chriss and Fultz definitely know each other, they had some twitter exchange earlier in the year.

TJ Warren and Dennis Smith Jr also know each other.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I like Ball because I have seen highlights of Ball, and have not seen Fultz. That being said, it's who the Suns like. Their penchant for getting Kentucky Wildcats has been fueled by the other Wildcats on the roster. Tyler Ulis was a recommendation by Devon Booker himself. That said, I bet Marquis Chriss will lobby for Fultz if we even have a shot at him.

OK. But Book and Ulis have been friends forever. They played together at Kentucky. Does Chriss even know Fultz? They never played together.

I am not against Fultz, I would be very tempted to take him #1, but its really close between Fultz and Ball, and now Jackson is certainly making a case to be in the mix.

How many NBA star player are there who:

1. Played NCAA div one
2. Did not play on teams that went to the NCAA tourney.

??

I will even allow players who played on the teams but did not get to play in the tourney because of injury etc.

I am not posting this because I know the answer. I don't. I am curious.

 

[slinslin]

How many NBA star player are there who:

1. Played NCAA div one
2. Did not play on teams that went to the NCAA tourney.
.

Damian Lillard, did not even have to think about it.


Soon, Marquese Chriss, Ben Simmons.

Myles Turner, Andrew Wiggins only made the NCAA tournament on at large bids.

 

[Yuma]

Damian Lillard, did not even have to think about it.


Ben Simmons.

And of course every star player who entered the NBA straight out of high school

• Tracy McGrady. Jed Jacobsohn/Getty Images. ...
• Shawn Kemp. ...
• Dwight Howard. ...
• Kevin Garnett. ...
• Moses Malone. ...
• Kobe Bryant. ...
• LeBron James.

 

[slinslin]

Joel Embiid, injured.

CJ McCollum.

Andre Drummond.

Klay Thompson.

Paul George.

Hassan Whiteside.

Jimmy Butler, also at-large bid.

this is too easy. If we looked at only freshman seasons there would be a lot more NBA stars that did not make the NCAA tournament as freshman, James Harden, Brandon Roy and many more did not make the NCAA tournament until their last year(s).

 

[Russ Smith]

Damian Lillard, did not even have to think about it.


Soon, Marquese Chriss, Ben Simmons.

Myles Turner, Andrew Wiggins only made the NCAA tournament on at large bids.

yes because Weber State is a perennial NCAA tourney team.

He's a good player but it's very unusual for a guy good enough to be the #1 overall pick to not make the dance. That's why it was considered a big deal last year for Simmons too.

 

[Russ Smith]

Joel Embiid, injured.

CJ McCollum.

Andre Drummond.

Klay Thompson.

Paul George.

Hassan Whiteside.

Jimmy Butler, also at-large bid.

this is too easy. If we looked at only freshman seasons there would be a lot more NBA stars that did not make the NCAA tournament as freshman.

So it was a different CJ McCollum who single handedly beat Duke? 30 of their 75 points in a 15 upsetting a 2 game.

 

[slinslin]

yes because Weber State is a perennial NCAA tourney team.

He's a good player but it's very unusual for a guy good enough to be the #1 overall pick to not make the dance. That's why it was considered a big deal last year for Simmons too.

Like Washington is a perennial tournament team, quick google shows 16 appearances since 1943.

 

[slinslin]

So it was a different CJ McCollum who single handedly beat Duke? 30 of their 75 points in a 15 upsetting a 2 game.

That was not in the season he was drafted.

 

[Russ Smith]

How? Fultz is getting to the line at a higher rate than Rose did.

Fultz

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Ball

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Keep in mind Balls shooting % close to the rim are propped up by an uproportionally high amount of transition production.

Where in that page does it say those layups and dunks were in transition? most of the dunks are off set play lobs to him. Most of the layups are off drives like the 2 he had last night or the 3 he had against UK etc.

Earlier you were saying most of his assists were just standing around passing to guys who hit 3's, now UCLA is fast breaking all the time. Which is it?

 

[Russ Smith]

Like Washington is a perennial tournament team, quick google shows 16 appearances since 1943.

how many for Weber State?

 

[Russ Smith]

That was not in the season he was drafted.

He got to the dance and he got to the NBA, the question wasn't in the year they were drafted.

 

[slinslin]

Chris Bosh another. Gerald Wallace. Shawn Marion.

 

[slinslin]

He got to the dance and he got to the NBA, the question wasn't in the year they were drafted.

So we are comparing one guy who played 1 season at age 18 for a B-tier programm to other guys who stayed 2-4 years and made only made the NCAA tournament in one of the years?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Joel Embiid, injured.

CJ McCollum.

Andre Drummond.

Klay Thompson.

Paul George.

Hassan Whiteside.

Jimmy Butler, also at-large bid.

this is too easy. If we looked at only freshman seasons there would be a lot more NBA stars that did not make the NCAA tournament as freshman, James Harden, Brandon Roy and many more did not make the NCAA tournament until their last year(s).

At large bid is still making the tourney.

They had to actually play on an NCAA team, that precludes high schoolers and foreign players (not on college teams). Embiid made it in that his team made it and he was part of that team making it.

Drummond is not a star, not Wallace either. I am not trying to make a case against Fultz, but I am wondering how often this happened. Its not often.

 

[slinslin]

Where in that page does it say those layups and dunks were in transition? most of the dunks are off set play lobs to him. Most of the layups are off drives like the 2 he had last night or the 3 he had against UK etc.

Earlier you were saying most of his assists were just standing around passing to guys who hit 3's, now UCLA is fast breaking all the time. Which is it?

31% of his production comes from transition plays, that is fact.

 

[Russ Smith]

So we are comparing one guy who played 1 season at age 18 for a B-tier programm to other guys who stayed 2-4 years and made only made the NCAA tournament in one of the years?

Quit changing the question. Someone asked how many players who wind up as great NBA players, didn't play in the NCAA tournament, you answered CJ McCollum who in fact did play. He played for Lehigh, if you can get Lehigh into the NCAA tourney it can't be impossible to get Washington in a major conference in.

The only kid who played for Lehigh that day other than CJ I've even heard of is Jordan Hamilton, but it's not the same Jordan Hamilton.

Duke had Rivers, 2 Plumlees, Seth Curry, Cook, they were good enough Gbinje couldn't even get on the court for them, and yet Lehigh won the game. That's what great players sometimes do. Remember Steph Curry and Davidson?

There were 3 good teams in the Pac 12 this year, USC was borderline good. For UW to do as terribly as they did took some work.

 

[Russ Smith]

31% of his production comes from transition plays, that is fact.

Layups? Or are you now including assists to counter a question about you saying his shooting % in the paint was due to fast breaks

 

[JCSunsfan]

There are plenty of examples of players who carried their teams on their backs with little supporting cast at all.

Kawhai led SDS to a 2 seed.
Harden led a very lackluster ASU team to a 6 seed.
Curry was a one man show.

I am sure there are many more.

My point is that the team performance is a real thing. To dismiss it entirely because of the other players is a mistake. Slin, a very good case can be made to pick Fultz over Ball, the problem people have with what you are saying is that you overstate your case.

 

[slinslin]

Harden did not get Arizona anywhere as a freshman.

90% of the prospects go to tier-A programs like Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona, UCLA, Michigan etc that is the only reason most of them get to the NCAA tournament.

What is your argument about Paul George, Chris Bosh, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson, Andre Drummond?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Harden did not get Arizona anywhere as a freshman.

90% of the prospects go to tier-A programs like Kentucky, Kansas, Arizona, UCLA, Michigan etc that is the only reason most of them get to the NCAA tournament.

What is your argument about Paul George, Chris Bosh, Ben Simmons, Klay Thompson, Andre Drummond?

Drummond and Simmons are not stars. The others are good examples. I would add Shawn Marion to that list as well as Lillard.