Levi v. Potter for LT -- Winston v. Massie for RT

Cbus cardsfan

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Agreed, but I can't imagine a scheme since the dawn of American style football where Baptiste would be better suited than Brown.

Or Potter. Nate Potter is not a staring LT in the NFL. He doesn't have the strength,feet,or athleticism to start at LT for ant team. Levi may not be a top 10 LT but he's worlds better than Potter.
 

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Or Potter. Nate Potter is not a staring LT in the NFL. He doesn't have the strength,feet,or athleticism to start at LT for ant team. Levi may not be a top 10 LT but he's worlds better than Potter.

Potter may not be able to hold down a starting job at LT, but I think you're selling him a bit short. He should be serviceable.
 
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Duckjake

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Speaking of Batiste...

Link

Inquiring minds want to know. Was Batiste any worse than Levi Brown? 2010 the Cards offense averaged 14.3 points per game*, finished 32nd in rushing yards and gave up 50 sacks.

2012 the Cards offense averaged 14.5 points per game*, finished 32nd in rushing yards and gave up 58 sacks.

They're the same guy!!!!

*Defense and special teams scores deducted at 6 points each
 

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Or Potter. Nate Potter is not a staring LT in the NFL. He doesn't have the strength,feet,or athleticism to start at LT for ant team. Levi may not be a top 10 LT but he's worlds better than Potter.

You are dead wrong. Potter showed massive improvement last year by the end of the season--as a 7th round rookie. Why? Because his feet and athleticism are outstanding. Arians even said so in training camp already. You have no basis for being able to say he doesn't. Maybe he won't grow into the position enough, and maybe his superior athleticism (makes Brown look like a lump of stone by comparison) won't be enough to carry him. Maybe it will. Levi doesn't have 1/2 the athleticism or footwork Potter does, but he does have much more size and strength.

It says a lot that Potter looked just as good as Levi has at his best by the end of his ROOKIE season. I don't know where this 'worlds better than Potter' nonsense is coming from.
 

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You are dead wrong. Potter showed massive improvement last year by the end of the season--as a 7th round rookie. Why? Because his feet and athleticism are outstanding. Arians even said so in training camp already. You have no basis for being able to say he doesn't. Maybe he won't grow into the position enough, and maybe his superior athleticism (makes Brown look like a lump of stone by comparison) won't be enough to carry him. Maybe it will. Levi doesn't have 1/2 the athleticism or footwork Potter does, but he does have much more size and strength.

It says a lot that Potter looked just as good as Levi has at his best by the end of his ROOKIE season. I don't know where this 'worlds better than Potter' nonsense is coming from.

How would anyone really know? The Cards offense was pasthetic last season because of horrific QB play and injuries. The offense failed to score a TD in 3 of their last 5 games. 14 of the 38 they got vs Detroit were scored by the defense. Their lone TD vs SF came with 2:06 left in the 4th quarter with SF leading 27-6. They gained 29 yards on 19 carries vs the Bears. They only managed 5 first downs vs the Jets. But I digress. You already know all this.

I think this pre season is going to be far more interesting than any in several years. To see how these guys perform with a real QB and hopefully healthy RBs, and an intact offensive line. To see if Potter and Massie and Housler et al really progressed last season.
 

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You are dead wrong. Potter showed massive improvement last year by the end of the season--as a 7th round rookie. Why? Because his feet and athleticism are outstanding. Arians even said so in training camp already. You have no basis for being able to say he doesn't. Maybe he won't grow into the position enough, and maybe his superior athleticism (makes Brown look like a lump of stone by comparison) won't be enough to carry him. Maybe it will. Levi doesn't have 1/2 the athleticism or footwork Potter does, but he does have much more size and strength.

It says a lot that Potter looked just as good as Levi has at his best by the end of his ROOKIE season. I don't know where this 'worlds better than Potter' nonsense is coming from.
I disagree with all of this. Superior athletes that can play LT don't get drafted in round 7.

I put little in what Arians says. Not that I don't think he knows what he's doing or talking about, but he has basically praised every player and not said anything negative about anyone, at least publically. Since you mention it, how come you disregard Arians calling that "lump of stone" an elite LT?
 

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You are dead wrong. Potter showed massive improvement last year by the end of the season--as a 7th round rookie. Why? Because his feet and athleticism are outstanding. Arians even said so in training camp already. You have no basis for being able to say he doesn't. Maybe he won't grow into the position enough, and maybe his superior athleticism (makes Brown look like a lump of stone by comparison) won't be enough to carry him. Maybe it will. Levi doesn't have 1/2 the athleticism or footwork Potter does, but he does have much more size and strength.

It says a lot that Potter looked just as good as Levi has at his best by the end of his ROOKIE season. I don't know where this 'worlds better than Potter' nonsense is coming from.

K9 has presented detailed stats that indicate that the assertion in your final paragraph is dubious at best.
 

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How would anyone really know? The Cards offense was pasthetic last season because of horrific QB play and injuries.

The eyeball test, watching him actually block well.

I disagree with all of this. Superior athletes that can play LT don't get drafted in round 7.

I put little in what Arians says. Not that I don't think he knows what he's doing or talking about, but he has basically praised every player and not said anything negative about anyone, at least publically. Since you mention it, how come you disregard Arians calling that "lump of stone" an elite LT?

Superior athletes with huge size and strength question marks slide very far indeed. He may still not be able to overcome those question marks, but to say he doesn't have good feet and isn't athletic is to ignore reality. Sorry, you're way off base there. Will he ever be a good starting LT? I think so, but that's just an opinion. Maybe he won't. Just please let's not rag on him in areas it isn't warranted, eh? While riding the Turnstile's jock?

And sure, Arians praised Levi too--before training camp, months before. Suddenly we hear rumblings that the coaching staff isn't pleased with Brown's conditioning, and Arians publicly praises Potter. It could be head games to try and motivate Brown, or it could actually be real praise.

K9 has presented detailed stats that indicate that the assertion in your final paragraph is dubious at best.

Stats schmats. The guy could block by season's end. And K9 isn't the god of all football knowledge. Potter was playing quite well by the end of the season, especially for a 7th round rookie. Saying otherwise is revisionist history.
 

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The eyeball test, watching him actually block well.



Superior athletes with huge size and strength question marks slide very far indeed. He may still not be able to overcome those question marks, but to say he doesn't have good feet and isn't athletic is to ignore reality. Sorry, you're way off base there. Will he ever be a good starting LT? I think so, but that's just an opinion. Maybe he won't. Just please let's not rag on him in areas it isn't warranted, eh? While riding the Turnstile's jock?

And sure, Arians praised Levi too--before training camp, months before. Suddenly we hear rumblings that the coaching staff isn't pleased with Brown's conditioning, and Arians publicly praises Potter. It could be head games to try and motivate Brown, or it could actually be real praise.



Stats schmats. The guy could block by season's end. And K9 isn't the god of all football knowledge. Potter was playing quite well by the end of the season, especially for a 7th round rookie. Saying otherwise is revisionist history.

I agree with everything you said, Stout.

What frustrates me about so many posters on this board is their preoccupation with name players and geeky stats---while being ignorant of two key facts:

1. The NFL Draft, propagandized and over-hyped by all of its so-called expert pundits, is one of the most inexact sciences in all of sports. It's laughable as to how incorrect so many of the pundits and the draft choices are.

For example---Jamell Fleming was one of the top 5 CBs taken in the 2012 draft (Rd. 3 #80) and right now he's getting his arse handed to him and beaten out badly by a 6th rounder named Justin Bethel (#177).

2. Players actually improve from year to year---to judge any player strictly on his rookie year is just plain ignorant.

For example---Stevie Breatson couldn't catch a cold as a WR his rookie year. He sucks, right?

As you said, the eye test is the test that matters, Stout.
 
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The eyeball test, watching him actually block well.



Superior athletes with huge size and strength question marks slide very far indeed. He may still not be able to overcome those question marks, but to say he doesn't have good feet and isn't athletic is to ignore reality. Sorry, you're way off base there. Will he ever be a good starting LT? I think so, but that's just an opinion. Maybe he won't. Just please let's not rag on him in areas it isn't warranted, eh? While riding the Turnstile's jock?

And sure, Arians praised Levi too--before training camp, months before. Suddenly we hear rumblings that the coaching staff isn't pleased with Brown's conditioning, and Arians publicly praises Potter. It could be head games to try and motivate Brown, or it could actually be real praise.



Stats schmats. The guy could block by season's end. And K9 isn't the god of all football knowledge. Potter was playing quite well by the end of the season, especially for a 7th round rookie. Saying otherwise is revisionist history.

K9 is not the fount of all knowledge, we agree. But, I'd suggest your eyes are not the all-seeing eye in the sky.
 

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I agree with everything you said, Stout.

What frustrates me about so many posters on this board is their preoccupation with name players and geeky stats---while being ignorant of two key facts:

1. The NFL Draft, propagandized and over-hyped by all of its so-called expert pundits, is one of the most inexact sciences in all of sports. It's laughable as to how incorrect so many of the pundits and the draft choices are.

For example---Jamell Fleming was one of the top 5 CBs taken in the 2012 draft (Rd. 3 #80) and right now he's getting his arse handed to him and beaten out badly by a 6th rounder named Justin Bethel (#177).

2. Players actually improve from year to year---to judge any player strictly on his rookie year is just plain ignorant.

For example---Stevie Breatson couldn't catch a cold as a WR his rookie year. He sucks, right?

As you said, the eye test is the test that matters, Stout.

Source for your comments on Fleming / Bethel.
 

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The eyeball test, watching him actually block well.

The problem is that people see things differently.

The eyeball test is what I use also but then watching Massie last season he looked like the guy who would be our RT for the next 10 years and first thing after camp opens the Cards bring in Eric Winston and Massie moves to 2nd team for now.

Or maybe that was just the Duckjake jinx hard at work.

The best thing is that we are going to find out real quick whether it was talent or Grimm that caused our Oline to be so bad for so long.
 

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As you said, the eye test is the test that matters, Stout.

And with whose eyes are you judging the 2013 performances of Nate Potter and Jamell Flemming, Mitch? Because I'm pretty sure that Cardinal practices aren't being broadcast in full anywhere, and I'm pretty sure that the Cards are holding training camp in Glendale, not Beacon Hill.
 

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I agree with everything you said, Stout.

What frustrates me about so many posters on this board is their preoccupation with name players and geeky stats---while being ignorant of two key facts:

1. The NFL Draft, propagandized and over-hyped by all of its so-called expert pundits, is one of the most inexact sciences in all of sports. It's laughable as to how incorrect so many of the pundits and the draft choices are.

For example---Jamell Fleming was one of the top 5 CBs taken in the 2012 draft (Rd. 3 #80) and right now he's getting his arse handed to him and beaten out badly by a 6th rounder named Justin Bethel (#177).

2. Players actually improve from year to year---to judge any player strictly on his rookie year is just plain ignorant.

For example---Stevie Breatson couldn't catch a cold as a WR his rookie year. He sucks, right?

As you said, the eye test is the test that matters, Stout.
Where you're mistaken is taking the talking head draft pundits at their opinion. Guys like Mayock, Kiper, and McShay are all about hype and trying to get web clicks and page views.

The reason you'll see a guy like Bethel may overtake a guy like Fleming is the overall grade from a 3rd round pick to 6th round pick is not as great as you'd think.

However, the grades of going the difference from a first or second rounder to the sixth or seventh is significant. That being said, players are pretty much drafted where they deserve to be drafted. There's a reason Nate Potter was a 7th round pick and Levi was a top 10.

Obviously there are misses and guys perform way above expectations, like Warner and Brady, but those are the rare exceptions and if you look over history, the "hit %" of players follows where they were drafted.

Potter may make it, and I hope he does, but people tend to overrate and root for the underdog while being more critical of the higher drafted player. It's nice to root for guys like Fred Wakefield and rip on a Leonard Davis. But give me an OL with 5 Davis's versus 5 Wakefield's and I'll beat you about every time, even if you're guys try harder and exceed expectation.

You mention Breaston. He had one good year when he was the 3rd option and defenses concentrated on Fitz and Boldin (when he played). Breaston would have struggled mightily had he been the #1 option and gone against #1 CB's. Bottom line is talent wins out 95 time out of 100 and guys are drafted based on talent expectations.
 

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Potter was playing quite well by the end of the season, especially for a 7th round rookie. Saying otherwise is revisionist history.

I don't disagree with you on that statement.

But can we base the assesment of his ability to start on the fact that he is a 7th round pick?
Is it okay to expect less from Potter, because he's a 7th rounder and Levi was the 5th overall selection?

I believe Potter is overhyped on this board, while Brown gets way to much undeserved criticism. I agree that Potter did show some promise for a 7th round rookie and with more experience he could turn into a servicable player, but until we have seen the new scheme in action it's impossible to tell if he could be a starting quality player. I'm looking forward seeing Levi's production in a "normal" OL scheme
 
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So, which games did Potter shine in? Against the crap lions?
 

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So, which games did Potter shine in? Against the crap lions?

I would officially like to ask the same question about Levi Brown.

The only thing I specifically remember Patrick Kearney nearly sodomizing our QB on his watch.
 

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I would officially like to ask the same question about Levi Brown.

The only thing I specifically remember Patrick Kearney nearly sodomizing our QB on his watch.
I have no idea.

I just wonder if he shined any games other than the game against the Lions.

Week 14: Lost to Seahawks 0-58
Week 15: Beat the Lions 38-10
Week 16: Lost to Bears 13-28
Week 17: Lost to 9ers 13-27

No it wasn't all on Potter, but I am curious about the support for claims of Potter excelling.
NOTE:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/3530/julius-peppers

Peppers had 3 sacks. Vs. Potter?
 
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While Potter's pass pro improved during the season (and I'll look back at that Bears game to see if Potter was responsible for the Peppers sacks), Potter was still a disaster in run support up through Week 17.
 

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While Potter's pass pro improved during the season (and I'll look back at that Bears game to see if Potter was responsible for the Peppers sacks), Potter was still a disaster in run support up through Week 17.

Everybody was a disaster in run support last season. The last 6 games the Cards averaged 63.5 yards per game rushing. 20 running backs did better by themselves last season. Capped off by that stellar performance vs the Bears where they picked up 29 yards on 17 carries. Potter, Colledge, Snyder, McQuistan, Massie.

Strange but true department: Batiste, Keith and Ohrenberger were all picked up by other teams.
 
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