Lost: Season 3 (Spoilers)

[Cheesebeef]

At any rate, I don't think what your saying is far off from what I am saying.

as far as Lost is concerned, I was just going to say this. However...

No show goes into production without on overall arc being set. That is a huge part of your pitch session when your trying to get your show on the air.

I completely disagree with this and have seen MANY instances where a show is just sold based off an arena and characters and nothing more. Like I said, having a full arch definitely helps, but it's not a requirement at a pitch session. The ONLY time this comes in as a major factor is with premise pilots. And people are LOATHE to make premise pilots - it's why you see so many procedurals/reality crap.

 

[Shane]

Best show in the history of TV.

Yep I said it!

 

[Covert Rain]

well, I've been working for the guy who's co-creator of Lost, got another show to pilot and i've seen a ton of other pitches sold where all of the above is absolutely not true. All you need to sell a pitch and get to the pilot stage is to write a killer script with a high concept and good characters. that's it. nothing about seasonal/story archs. does it help? sure. but that's putting the cart before the horse because the only thing ANYONE cares about is the PILOT.

and the budget for a pilot has NOTHING to do with where the show is going. Not sure why you think you can't budget the pilot without mapping things out. what happens in future episodes has no bearing on the budget for the pilot. again, that's putting the cart before the horse. a no-no as far as TV pilots are concerned considering that the overwhelming majority of them never see the light of day.

No no no you misunderstood what I was saying. We can take this offline if you would like. I don't want to hijack this thread. Trust me, I have some intimate knowledge on what goes into budgeting and how that impacts story lines, story arcs etc.... I am talking about production of the series, not the pilot. Every pitch session I have been to, they have talked about overall arcs not details in the arcs. Pilots are for getting something onscreen to help people see your vision. It's also used to test the concept to see if people are interested. If the pilot tests well and they want the show, it's a entirely much bigger more complex process of going forward.

FX budgets, location budgets, set construction etc... all those are factored in when mapping out an entire season. They just don't write you a blank check and say do what you want. A perfect example would be BSG. There are stories that never made it to screen because of budget. There are scenes never filmed because of budget. Sometimes things are rewritten to save on budget. If you don't think that has an impact then you know a different hollywood then me.

Sorry, for hijacking the thread fellas.

Again, back to Lost, I am sure they knew the start and the end. The probably also had basic season arcs worked out after the show was picked up (post pilot). I agree they probably had no idea how to get there. Coming up with stories to tie it all together isn't easy and writers have always on every show made stuff up as they went along. It's what they get paid for. However, I have hard time believing this was well we got our show on the air but we have no clue what were doing. If your boss managed that then he needs to write a book because he managed to do what most writers would dream of.

 

[Cheesebeef]

No no no you misunderstood what I was saying. We can take this offline if you would like. I don't want to hijack this thread. Trust me, I have some intimate knowledge on what goes into budgeting and how that impacts story lines, story arcs etc.... I am talking about production of the series, not the pilot. Every pitch session I have been to, they have talked about overall arcs not details in the arcs. Pilots are for getting something onscreen to help people see your vision. It's also used to test the concept to see if people are interested. If the pilot tests well and they want the show, it's a entirely much bigger more complex process of going forward.

FX budgets, location budgets, set construction etc... all those are factored in when mapping out an entire season. They just don't write you a blank check and say do what you want. A perfect example would be BSG. There are stories that never made it to screen because of budget. There are scenes never filmed because of budget. Sometimes things are rewritten to save on budget. If you don't think that has an impact then you know a different hollywood then me.

Steel- is this meant for me? Trust me, I know what a pilot is. Why you're bringing up already in production details is confusing me, but you're right about the above - then again, none of that was in question.

Again, back to Lost, I am sure they knew the start and the end. The probably also had basic season arcs worked out after the show was picked up (post pilot). I agree they probably had no idea how to get there. Coming up with stories to tie it all together isn't easy and writers have always on every show made stuff up as they went along. It's what they get paid for. However, I have hard time believing this was well we got our show on the air but we have no clue what were doing.

I believe they had a) a beginning (obviously - it was the pilot) b) the franchise of the show (meaning the structure of each episode which would focus on one character and they're flashbacks versus they're experience on the island - which was a BRILLIANT stroke of genius IMO) and c) an ending. And that's about it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think that is about 100% of everything that hits TV.

we'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If your boss managed that then he needs to write a book because he managed to do what most writers would dream of.

anyone who gets their show on the air period has managed to do what most writers would dream of. the pilot process, and movie process is just ridiculous, wiith anything hitting the screen, getting it there for a MILLION different reasons. No two experiences are ever the same out here.

 

[Covert Rain]

Steel- is this meant for me? Trust me, I know what a pilot is. Why you're bringing up already in production details is confusing me, but you're right about the above - then again, none of that was in question.

I think maybe I was confused on what you were trying to say as well. You talked about them not having any idea halfway through the season then we got side tracked on pilots.

I believe they had a) a beginning (obviously - it was the pilot) b) the franchise of the show (meaning the structure of each episode which would focus on one character and they're flashbacks versus they're experience on the island) and c) an ending. And that's about it.

Again, if your talking about at the time of the "pitch" i can buy that. Just not when the show went into production. That's all I am saying.

but I will amend what I said earlier as I think I may have made to much of a blanket statement - they did have an end point - they just never had any idea how they were going to get there.

Now that makes more sense to me. I think that is about 100% of everything that hits TV. I have spoken to writers who have admitted to me that once they got the green light it was panic time because they had no idea how they would get to their end game. I agree with another thing you said that when writers write themselves into holes and manage to get out. That to me is what makes a great writer and probably a great show. I definitely felt that way a few times with Lost but they always seem to have a way out.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Again, if your talking about at the time of the "pitch" i can buy that. Just not when the show went into production. That's all I am saying.

then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Covert Rain]

then, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough but I should clarify. I was commenting specifically on if they knew where the show was going from an overall arc perspective. Not the nitty gritty details of character development or how they would get there from episode to episode. The overall arc was there.

At any rate, who else thinks the body in the pine box was Ben??? Anybody else think it was Sawyer? I mean I can't see under any circumstances Jack going to see Ben's dead body even if Ben was right about something. Especially, after all he has done. If it is Ben, then maybe Jack was upset at his death because he thought that was his only chance to get back to the island? I just don't think it was Ben.

What if it was Sawyer? Sawyer is pretty much alienated everyone. Jack seemed surprised that Kate did not go and see him. Possibly because of the love triangle?

Maybe it's just misdirection AGAIN. Maybe, another character who we love now does something so bad in the future nobody but Jack would bother going to see him when he dies?!?!?!

FEBRUARY CANNOT GET HERE FAST ENOUGH!!!!!

 

[Shane]

Cheese you really need to go back and watch all of the episodes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese you really need to go back and watch all of the episodes.

shane, i really don't.

 

[Pariah]

Who ever the funeral (sorry, not "funeral," "viewing) is for, it's not someone jack was friendly with and certainly not someone Kate was friendly with.

In response to the director's question of friend or family, Jack said "neither." When Jack said he thought kate might have gone, she looked disgusted and said "why?"

So, Juliette is a possibility--if she somehow betrays them again, Ben is certainly a possibility, as is Michael.

Some other random thoughts:

~I think the dynamic of the show will change now. I'm not sure I like that.

~Charlie had a lot of time after Mikial blew the porthole. He could have closed the door from the outside or simply gone out and put on tanks with Des and swum out. He didn't have to drown. I think that scene was handled poorly from that angle (liked it, though. Just wish it would have been quicker).

~I've said from very early on that I think Jack's dad is more central to the story than we know/think. This episode reinforced it.

~Or, could be that Jack has totally lost it. Maybe he's not even a doctor anymore--he's living a fantasy that the hospital puts up with because of who he is and what he's done...but he's totally looney tunes. You never actually see him "being" a doctor...just acting like one. If so, then his dad is still dead....but Jack still sees him. Remember when the pharmacist was going to call him? Jack said "don't bother," and stumbled away. The doctors seemed to ignore (maybe even pity) Jack when he said to get his father and see if he was drunker than him.

~"He walks among us, yet he is not one of us." This might explain Jack's different response to being off the island.

 

[FischerKing]

Another interesting thing is that these flash forwards would almost signify the series end, if they come true.

Unless sometime next season or the one after, the group DOES get rescued, then have to go back to the island. That would be strange, but certainly something we NEVER would have expected. (In other words, by the end of the series, these flash forwards would be flashbacks)

Could be Chap. One thing I mentioned last night was "has everything we have watched on the Island been one giant flashback?"

Also - I knew instantly something was up with Jack's flashbacks this reason - his cell phone he used to place the call before walking into the funeral parlor was way too new for a flashback (time period wise) and I knew the producers and directors would not let something like that escape their attention.

Shawn

 

[FischerKing]

could the funeral be for Juliet for some reason?

and were Jack's flashbacks really flash-forwards? They've talked about alternate realities before right? They've talked about Flight 815 having been found and there were no survivors. Taking both of those into account, could they not be rescued and actually come back to reality BEFORE they got on the plane somehow? But coming back before, Jack is able to save his father (thus the line in the hospital), Angeline Lilly and Sawyer are able to go back and undo their deeds, but Juliet gets back and finds her sister dying and unable to help her now? Etc, etc. And does Jack and only a couple others actually make it off the island which is why he needs to go back?

Regarding the idea about Jack and his statement about his dad - I don't think that was before they got on the plane. He wasn't like this before the Island - not in all his other flashbacks. I think that line was more because he was high and didn't know what he was saying, but who knows - his dad might still be alive.

When Jack was sitting on the floor in his apartment drinking - we had papers and maps scattered all around him. One of the maps or papers had Oceanic Flight 815 written on it. It appeared to me that he was trying to find the island so he could go back - which he tells Kate as much when he meets up with her.

shawn

 

[FischerKing]

Does anybody remember Juliette's last name? Because whoever died, their first name started with a "J" from the article.

Juliet Burke

shawn

 

[FischerKing]

Another REALLY out there theory.

Is Jacob future Jack SOMEHOW?! Locke is there to help Jack from making a HUGE MISTAKE (Jacob: "help me!"/ Locke: (to Jack re: the phone: "you'e not supposed to do this") and Locke WON'T kill Jack even though he would kill ANYONE else who was in that position, why? Because killing present Jack would kill future Jacob?!

also, we have a reason why Ben might be keeping Jacob locked up - as punishment for past/present Jack - whatever the hell that means!)

THIS SHOW IS MIND-BOGGLING.

oh - and me thinks the people coming are Dharma peeps on the war path.

not that is a theory i can work with! nice work - very interesting if that turns out to be the case.

shawn

 

[Russ Smith]

My brain! That was an amazing finale...

Edit: I was thinking Sawyer funeral, but wow that was amazing....

I was guessing Locke because nobody came and he had very little family IIRC.

 

[Nasser22]

Who was Sawyers family? but now after reading what everyone has to say I think it is Ben.

 

[Pariah]

Another REALLY out there theory.

Is Jacob future Jack SOMEHOW?!

I could buy into that. It's interesting that they made a point of saying the signal jamming device was programmed by a musician--I immediately thought that Charlie programmed it from the future/past somehow.

If Jack is Jacob, it also explains why Locke didn't shoot him--in the effort to preserve the future/past he'd be destroying it.

 

[Pariah]

I was guessing Locke because nobody came and he had very little family IIRC.

Even with what Locke has donoe to try to sabotage their efforts--especially with Jack seemingly coming around to Locke's point of view about the island--I think Jack (and Kate and everyone else for that matter) would still consider Locke a friend. It's for that reason I don't think it's Locke.

I also don't think Locke is going to leave the island.

 

[Chaplin]

Even with what Locke has donoe to try to sabotage their efforts--especially with Jack seemingly coming around to Locke's point of view about the island--I think Jack (and Kate and everyone else for that matter) would still consider Locke a friend. It's for that reason I don't think it's Locke.

I also don't think Locke is going to leave the island.

That's the thing--Locke has as much chance of leaving the island as Ben does.

 

[Russ Smith]

Even with what Locke has donoe to try to sabotage their efforts--especially with Jack seemingly coming around to Locke's point of view about the island--I think Jack (and Kate and everyone else for that matter) would still consider Locke a friend. It's for that reason I don't think it's Locke.

I also don't think Locke is going to leave the island.

Yeah my guess was locke left the island, probably not willingly, couldn't handle being back in a wheel chair again, and killed himself.

But if the J Bentham thing is correct obviously Locke makes no sense unless his real last name isn't Locke. Remember his father was a con man so it's possible his real last name was Bentham?

What a great episode, I'm exhausted today I couldn't get to sleep thinking about the show.

 

[bankybruce]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon


try this link out. it really makes you think

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

I denfinitely think it was Ben, for Locke was a "friend" at one point... Jack said the person was neither a freind or family...

 

[Covert Rain]

I think the fact that Jack thought Kate would show up means it had to be someone she would have considered seeing. Jack really thought she might show up. That's why I thought it might be Sawyer. Also, it would make sense why nobody else might now show up.

The other disturbing thing I just now really thought about, Kate turns her back on Jack. It appears she loves him but she is being forced much like they are being forced to lie about what happened. What could possibly be forcing them to lie and change their lives when they get back?? It has to be a pretty big something.