MadCards Training Camp Observations Friday 7/26

[PACardsFan]

I’d still rather have Rosen, cap space, and the high pick than Murray, right now. If they both become successful, it’s an academic question. If they both fail, you’d probably regret expending the draft capital on a second failed QB. Similarly if they’re similarly average.

I would’ve liked to see Rosen in this offense with more protection and playmakers. We could’ve gotten those if we didn’t have to absorb $20 million (or whatever) in dead cap for trading him.

I’m glad you’re excited to eat the garbage of the 31 other NFL teams. We’re unlikely to get anyone better than we claimed from the Browns. He didn’t make it to camp.

Murray is head and shoulders better than Rosen. With the 1st pick of the NFL draft, the Cardinals upgraded at the most important position on the field. It's as simple as that. Move on.

 

[kerouac9]

Murray is head and shoulders better than Rosen. With the 1st pick of the NFL draft, the Cardinals upgraded at the most position on the field. It's as simple as that. Move on.

You don’t know that yet. No one does. I was asked to make the comparison.

 

[AZCB34]

Murray is head and shoulders better than Rosen. With the 1st pick of the NFL draft, the Cardinals upgraded at the most position on the field. It's as simple as that. Move on.

C'mon man. You are better than this. You may be proven right but you clearly have nothing to prove this. Murray may be the second coming of Matt Leinart...or RG3...or Drew Brees. Absolutely nobody but the fates of football know since they already know his path.

 

[Solar7]

A star QB is worth many first round picks. They are so hard to find. It is easy to burn a first round (or second or third) pick without ever trading it. Just look at how many duds the Cardinals (and many other teams) have had in the first round. If you burn a pick to get the player you want in the end, you did not really burn it.

I am excited about the Cards ability to cherry-pick the waiver wire from here into the season. It is like having lots of extra picks. They will likely be able to shore up their depth significantly and in this injury-prone league, depth is so important.

Sure. A star QB. We don't know what Kyler is yet. I'll say - right now, the right things are being said, so that'd be cool. But you still burnt your picks, one way or the other, and Keim shouldn't be given a pass. He failed, and failed hard last offseason. You waste every shot you don't take, and Keim pulled out his bullets and threw them on the ground.

Over the franchises existence, yes this team has NOT inspired hope.

But since 2008? This team has more winning seasons than the team than it did from like 1980-2007. The franchise has clearly done a lot better.

What always used to miff me was that the Cardinals seemingly had all of the back up positions filled with UDFAs. That's clearly no the case anymore, the talent acquisition is much better than it was under Bill Bidwill.

I think your wrong on the hand wringing on what was spent on QBs. If we were talking about any other position, I would agree, but QB is just so much more important than any other position.

The team hasn't played a meaningful down of football yet, but every ounce of information points to moving on from Rosen to Murray as being the right call. If you follow Dolphins Twitter, they are fawning over Fitzpatrick with nary a peep about Rosen.

And you hear AND see how Murray has captivated all of the veterans on the team and the skeptical media personalities. Yesterday it was related about when Michael Michael Bidwill agreed to take Murray...when he saw him practice live, he was blown away.

There is plenty of space on Team Murray if you want to jump on the bus.

We've discussed the Kyler media coverage multiple times as it reflects on him in commentary from his teammates. He's the starter by default, so there is absolutely zero reason for his teammates to levy any public judgement. As for the other players out there that aren't getting good press... they're in a competition. Players must tread lightly.

That doesn't mean Kyler's good press isn't valid! I hope it's really true, and I hope it holds when players are in pads.

 

[daves]

We burned a top ten pick, a third, and a fifth

You can say the Cardinals burned a top ten pick, or that they burned a #15, a third and a fifth... but don't double-count the third and fifth.

...dbs

 

[Solar7]

I’d still rather have Rosen, cap space, and the high pick than Murray, right now. If they both become successful, it’s an academic question. If they both fail, you’d probably regret expending the draft capital on a second failed QB. Similarly if they’re similarly average.

I would’ve liked to see Rosen in this offense with more protection and playmakers. We could’ve gotten those if we didn’t have to absorb $20 million (or whatever) in dead cap for trading him.

I’m glad you’re excited to eat the garbage of the 31 other NFL teams. We’re unlikely to get anyone better than we claimed from the Browns. He didn’t make it to camp.

I'm right there with you. I'd rather have Rosen, the cap space, another offensive lineman better than JR Sweezy, and the blue chip defensive player.

I have zero excitement around others' cuts, and my biggest concern is that Murray doesn't turn out to be bad, he just doesn't turn out to be great.

Murray is head and shoulders better than Rosen. With the 1st pick of the NFL draft, the Cardinals upgraded at the most position on the field. It's as simple as that. Move on.

As was said, you have nothing to prove this. There hasn't been a down played yet.

You can say the Cardinals burned a top ten pick, or that they burned a #15, a third and a fifth... but don't double-count the third and fifth.

...dbs

I'm not sure how that math is incorrect... our return on investment for three picks was a second round receiver from a small, bad school. We ended up in 2019 with next to nothing to show for the draft positions we ended up at.

The margin of it being a #15 or #10 doesn't really matter anyways - last year's draft class is already almost a complete bust.

 

[Garthshort]

Not sure if this is correct, but I did catch two media guys (either the NFL channel or ESPN) saying that Fitzpatrick is beating out Rosen. Anyone know if it's true?

 

[TruColor]

Not sure if this is correct, but I did catch two media guys (either the NFL channel or ESPN) saying that Fitzpatrick is beating out Rosen. Anyone know if it's true?

Been hearing that fairly consistently all off-season.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Not sure if this is correct, but I did catch two media guys (either the NFL channel or ESPN) saying that Fitzpatrick is beating out Rosen. Anyone know if it's true?

That's what literally everyone who is watching the Dolphins is saying.

The haters may say Murray hasn't proven anything, and that is true. But literally everyone who has watched him with the team is beyond excited. And it ISNT him running the ball, it's the way he throws.

The pro-Rosen crowd basically wanted this team mired in mediocrity because that's what it would be with Rosen as the QB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Not sure if this is correct, but I did catch two media guys (either the NFL channel or ESPN) saying that Fitzpatrick is beating out Rosen. Anyone know if it's true?

Rosen literally showed nothing last year.

As been covered on this board ad nauseam, Rosen was amongst the worst rookie starting QBs of the modern era. Pretty much every good QB showed SOMETHING their rookie year.

You see how much backlash there has been moving on from Rosen? Bold moves brings criticism. Like I have stated a bunch of times, I started out anti-Murray, but my investigation on who he was as a person and a player is what changed my mind.

Josh Rosen cares about cigarette butts on beaches while Kyler Murray cares about winning football games. One of them struggled to win at UCLA with top 25 recruiting classes, while the other has lost 3 games out of over 100 in his life.

 

[gimpy]

Gosh. Enough. Forget about Rosen already. The only time he should even be talked about on here is when we get ready to play his team. Although he was not my first choice as one of the top qb's last year, I was so glad when we traded up to get him, as was a lot of people on here. He was going to be our qbotf. Almost everyone thought so. All the pundits had him as the most nfl ready qb. I wanted to keep him, too, BUT....

It's so tiring to read all the "same" people gripe and "....." and complain about it. Move on. He's not here now. Nothing we can do about it.

I like reading the about the new players and new team.

 

[JeffGollin]

Not sure if this is correct, but I did catch two media guys (either the NFL channel or ESPN) saying that Fitzpatrick is beating out Rosen. Anyone know if it's true?

Comment today (maybe by Silver) was that Fitzpatrick would probably start until he made his first mistake, and then they'd move Rosen ahead of Fitzpatrick.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not sure how that math is incorrect... our return on investment for three picks was a second round receiver from a small, bad school. We ended up in 2019 with next to nothing to show for the draft positions we ended up at.

The margin of it being a #15 or #10 doesn't really matter anyways - last year's draft class is already almost a complete bust.

Lol. Sometimes when someone accurately points out your error using provable facts it’s in your best interest to just say, “oops you’re right.”

 

[Solar7]

Lol. Sometimes when someone accurately points out your error using provable facts it’s in your best interest to just say, “oops you’re right.”

It's still not really right? I'm not double counting.

Maybe I'm just not thinking about it right? I don't know. Either way we paid a high price.

 

[PJ1]

Probably best to see how this plays out. At draft time I didn't want Murray. Right now I am happy with what people are saying about him and I am well aware it is VERY early. All the draft stuff is history. I am all in on him being successful.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's still not really right? I'm not double counting.

Maybe I'm just not thinking about it right? I don't know. Either way we paid a high price.

Sure you’re technically double counting. They couldn’t get the 10th pick without giving up the 3rd and 5th. So if you say “the 10th” that’s it because the 15th, 3rd and 5th were essentially components of the 10th.

That’s like saying I’ll trade you a dollar, a quarter, and a nickel for that candy bar. Here’s the dollar. What? Oh, the quarter and nickel are part of the dollar not in addition to the dollar!

 

[Chris_Sanders]

So did anyone go to training camp yesterday?

 

[Delmar M Lewis]

Decided to go to Training camp today to see what all of the buzz was about. Will try and summarize everything here.

I was keying on the offense (Mostly QBs and WRs) so here are some individual observations of the Offensive players:

QB:
Kyler Murray -

• Impressed me right off the bat. Seems to have a real grasp of the offense and was directing people on where they needed to be.
• Super quick throwing motion
• Can really zing the ball and puts it in tight locations with very good accuracy.
• Had several great passes that had the crowd very excited.
• Didn't see him tuck and run so I can comment on that aspect of his game
• Overall I came away impressed! Add me to the Murray Bandwagon!

WR:
Larry Fitz -

• Running with the Ones. DUH!
• Still making catches like only Larry can!
• Saw him mentoring Hakeem Butler on a couple of occasions.
• Already seems to have a connection with Murray
• Looks like he is still having fun out there

Kirk -

• Running with the Ones. Duh!
• Looks healthy and fast out there.
• Had a nice over the head catch on a bomb from Murray

KeeSean Johnson -

• I felt he was a steal in this years draft
• Looks to be running with the Ones already in 4 wide formations
• Ran a great route on PP and caught a perfect pass from Murray for a 20 yard gain
• I think he will put up the most yards of the three rookies drafted at least this year
• He looks the most ready to play of all the rookie WRs

Damiere Byrd -

• Appears to be currently running with the Ones
• Looks solid but wasn't really keying on him
• Saw him on Kick Return
• I would currently put him in the top 7 WRs

Kevin White -

• Appears to be running with the Twos
• A lot bigger than I realized. Looks about the same size as Fitz but with speed.
• I saw him make a really nice catch today
• I would currently put him in the top 7 WRs

Andy Isabella -

• Appears to be running with the Twos
• Looks very short but compact
• His legs move so fast when he runs it almost looks cartoonish
• Saw him returning kicks
• I would currently put him in the top 7 WRs

Hakeem Butler -

• Appears to be running with the Twos
• This kid is lengthy! His wing span is enormous. Could be a major Red Zone threat.
• Still a little raw but he showed flashes.
• I would currently put him in the top 7 WRs

Chad Williams -

• His routes were unimpressive.
• He dropped a ball that went right through his hands.
• I would guess he is on the outside looking in

Cooper and Sherfield -

• Looked OK but would need to have a stellar camp to knock one of the rookies or possibly White off the roster.

Here are some of my other notes from this practice:

• Suggs looks like a Monster!
• Suggs and Chandler Jones were always together. Looks like they have a close bond already
• Chandler Jones is a great guy. he always interacts with the crowd at Training camp.
• Vincent Valentine went down with some sort of a knee injury and was helped off the field. Scott Bordow incorrectly said that it was Corey Peters.
• Guys who were returning kicks: Byrd, Cooper, Logan, Kirk, Isabella
• Peterson was on all of the WRs like Glue. Except for one play where KeeSean ran a great route and made a nice catch.
• I thought that Alford looked solid opposite of Peterson
• Murray really seems to be respected by both the Offensive and Defensive players.
• KK spent most of his time with the QBs when they broke into position groups
• Today they were always in a single RB set with either 4Wide or 3Wide and a TE.
• I'd say they ran the ball about a third of the plays today.
• David Johnson and Edmonds both looked fluid running the ball
• Recognized the "Mesh" play a few times. Looked like the WRs would high five each other as they "Meshed" if that makes sense.
• I thought the practice looked really smooth and a lot was accomplished in the 2 hours and 30 minutes I was there watching.

Did you see about any of the defensive rookies particularly Allen he is the one I'm really interested in but thanks for the good report bout time for some Football

 

[Solar7]

Sure you’re technically double counting. They couldn’t get the 10th pick without giving up the 3rd and 5th. So if you say “the 10th” that’s it because the 15th, 3rd and 5th were essentially components of the 10th.

That’s like saying I’ll trade you a dollar, a quarter, and a nickel for that candy bar. Here’s the dollar. What? Oh, the quarter and nickel are part of the dollar not in addition to the dollar!

Ah, I get it.

Sorry, this wasn't me being stubborn, but dumb.

Still, we lost the #15, a 3, and a 5 for a WR from UMass.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Ah, I get it.

Sorry, this wasn't me being stubborn, but dumb.

Still, we lost the #15, a 3, and a 5 for a WR from UMass.

And the safety we took in the supplemental round this year.

 

[Solar7]

And the safety we took in the supplemental round this year.

I thought that wasn't the Rosen pick and wasn't eligible to be used? I thought it was our natural 5th, wherever that turns out to be in the round.

 

[slanidrac16]

I’d still rather have Rosen, cap space, and the high pick than Murray, right now. If they both become successful, it’s an academic question. If they both fail, you’d probably regret expending the draft capital on a second failed QB. Similarly if they’re similarly average.

I would’ve liked to see Rosen in this offense with more protection and playmakers. We could’ve gotten those if we didn’t have to absorb $20 million (or whatever) in dead cap for trading him.

I’m glad you’re excited to eat the garbage of the 31 other NFL teams. We’re unlikely to get anyone better than we claimed from the Browns. He didn’t make it to camp.

I kind of believe that Rosen would not out perform Murray in this offense.
1. Murray already knows the offense.
2. Murray is SO much faster, quicker release, and accuracy
3. His ability to throw on the run, his threat to run and ability to extend plays.

Hope for nothing but the best for Rosen. But I think It appears that the Cardinals made the right move.

 

[slanidrac16]

Sure. A star QB. We don't know what Kyler is yet. I'll say - right now, the right things are being said, so that'd be cool. But you still burnt your picks, one way or the other, and Keim shouldn't be given a pass. He failed, and failed hard last offseason. You waste every shot you don't take, and Keim pulled out his bullets and threw them on the ground.


We've discussed the Kyler media coverage multiple times as it reflects on him in commentary from his teammates. He's the starter by default, so there is absolutely zero reason for his teammates to levy any public judgement. As for the other players out there that aren't getting good press... they're in a competition. Players must tread lightly.

That doesn't mean Kyler's good press isn't valid! I hope it's really true, and I hope it holds when players are in pads.

So Solar, were you this excited last year with Rosen? Did you hear ANY glowing reports about Rosen during camp? Throughout the season can you say you were excited about more than 10 plays by Rosen? Just what did Rosen do to instill any confidence to convince anyone he was destined for greatness or even mediocrity? And finally you and others say if Murray doesn’t work out how it will set the franchise back? Where would be next year if we kept Rosen and he morphed into Blake Bortles?

 

[slanidrac16]

I'm right there with you. I'd rather have Rosen, the cap space, another offensive lineman better than JR Sweezy, and the blue chip defensive player.

I have zero excitement around others' cuts, and my biggest concern is that Murray doesn't turn out to be bad, he just doesn't turn out to be great.


As was said, you have nothing to prove this. There hasn't been a down played yet.


I'm not sure how that math is incorrect... our return on investment for three picks was a second round receiver from a small, bad school. We ended up in 2019 with next to nothing to show for the draft positions we ended up at.

The margin of it being a #15 or #10 doesn't really matter anyways - last year's draft class is already almost a complete bust.

You can talk all you want about the picks we gave up but you can come to conclusion that any picks we gave up would have turned into all pros, starters or even a quality backup.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Did you see about any of the defensive rookies particularly Allen he is the one I'm really interested in but thanks for the good report bout time for some Football

Really focused on the offensive side of the ball. Was trying to watch practice and report at the same time so ignored the defensive side for the most part.