MJ vs LeBron

[Russ Smith]

Lebron gets no respect. I get that hes not Jordan personality wise. Jordan did have better players around him though most of the basketball heads agree with this. They did what they were supposed to. Not a one of them just disappeared the way love or jr smith or insert name here has. I will take their opinion over anyone on this board. I wish he had more fire in him but he doesnt. Overall take every aspect of basketball into account. Whos better? Its Lebron

Love was overrated in Minnesota putting up stats on a bad team but his "disappearance" in Cleveland is a function of playing with LeBron. LeBron is at his best with a spread floor so the middle is open for him to drive, which means surround him with 3 point shooters. Love in his last 3 years in Minn averaged over 5 three point shots a game, but he was taking about 18 shots a game(over 19 one of those years). In Cleveland he's still taking 5 threes per game but he's taking 5-6 shots LESS overall. So about 25% of his shots in minn were 3's, in Cleveland it's over 40. That's not because of Love, that's because he's trying to fit into what LeBron does best.

That's not a knock on LeBron mind you, but if Kevin Love used some of the back to the basket game he had when he entered the league, he's "in the way" of LeBron trying to drive. That's why LeBron hasn't really played with a good low post scorer most of his career, you don't want anybody clogging up the paint because LeBron is so amazingly good at getting in there and scoring. Love averaged over 8 FTA's a game the last 3 years cumulatively in Minnesota, he hasn't even gotten to 5 playing in Cleveland, it's not just injuries and Love getting older(he's not even 30) it's that he's been asked to stay out of the lane to free it up.

 

[Phrazbit]

Love was overrated in Minnesota putting up stats on a bad team but his "disappearance" in Cleveland is a function of playing with LeBron. LeBron is at his best with a spread floor so the middle is open for him to drive, which means surround him with 3 point shooters. Love in his last 3 years in Minn averaged over 5 three point shots a game, but he was taking about 18 shots a game(over 19 one of those years). In Cleveland he's still taking 5 threes per game but he's taking 5-6 shots LESS overall. So about 25% of his shots in minn were 3's, in Cleveland it's over 40. That's not because of Love, that's because he's trying to fit into what LeBron does best.

That's not a knock on LeBron mind you, but if Kevin Love used some of the back to the basket game he had when he entered the league, he's "in the way" of LeBron trying to drive. That's why LeBron hasn't really played with a good low post scorer most of his career, you don't want anybody clogging up the paint because LeBron is so amazingly good at getting in there and scoring. Love averaged over 8 FTA's a game the last 3 years cumulatively in Minnesota, he hasn't even gotten to 5 playing in Cleveland, it's not just injuries and Love getting older(he's not even 30) it's that he's been asked to stay out of the lane to free it up.

Some of that also has to be that in Minnesota Love was THE scoring option. So, he is obviously going to get a higher usage and draw more fouls because he is the best player on a bad team.

As others have said, a big downside of tanking/being terrible is that it is difficult to evaluate the talent on a bottom feeder team. Are Chriss and Bender lousy players of merely players that need help in order to blossom? Personally, I don't think Warren would be more than a 7th man on a really good team, or if he did start it would only be because SF is where their obvious "hole" is. And I like Warren, he is seemingly a nice guy and decent player... he's just limited. There is a chance Booker is in a similar category... personally, I don't think so, because of how versatile his is offensively... he can create his own shot, create shots for others and thrives everywhere but the rim, and I suspect his struggles at the rim are because he is the only legit outside threat on the roster and when he gets inside the defense collapses. But... I might be wrong and instead of Booker being a superstar he might only be in the CJ McCollum stratosphere.

Actually... nah... now that I type that out, it's nonsense. When Kobe had no help the Lakers were terrible, and Kobe was an *****. Booker is a superstar baby!!!

 

[TJ]

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It's garbage like this that will unfairly be held against LeBron when talking about his legacy. Because people are so myopically and ignorantly focused on team accomplishments as a barometer for individual greatness, LeBron will never get the benefit of the doubt. We never hear about Jordan and his inability to do anything in the playoffs until Pippen and Phil Jackson came to his rescue. We never hear about Durant being a prick and a ring chaser.

Sure, MJ is the GOAT, but let's not pretend that LeBron isn't within arms reach of him.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

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It's garbage like this that will unfairly be held against LeBron when talking about his legacy. Because people are so myopically and ignorantly focused on team accomplishments as a barometer for individual greatness, LeBron will never get the benefit of the doubt. We never hear about Jordan and his inability to do anything in the playoffs until Pippen and Phil Jackson came to his rescue. We never hear about Durant being a prick and a ring chaser.

Sure, MJ is the GOAT, but let's not pretend that LeBron isn't within arms reach of him.

“Pippen came to his rescue?” Where does his revisionist history come from. Pippen of the mysterious playoff migraines.

And I’m pretty sure a TON of people have lambasted Durant for ring chasing.

I don’t know what the talk was of lebrons turnovers last night, but the lamest defense for one individual is pointing out the flaws of another. They have zero causal affect on one and other.

 

[Hoop Head]

It's garbage like this that will unfairly be held against LeBron when talking about his legacy. Because people are so myopically and ignorantly focused on team accomplishments as a barometer for individual greatness, LeBron will never get the benefit of the doubt. We never hear about Jordan and his inability to do anything in the playoffs until Pippen and Phil Jackson came to his rescue. We never hear about Durant being a prick and a ring chaser.

Sure, MJ is the GOAT, but let's not pretend that LeBron isn't within arms reach of him.

Not sure what you've been listening to but Durant gets bashed all of the time for signing with Golden State. He's clearly the #2 player in the league, behind only Lebron, but he doesn't get credit for that since he took the easy way out by signing with Golden State. He's a ring chaser and he never led a team to a title. That was the narrative of fans last year and a lot of media people as well. A ring is a ring but Durant's title won't be viewed the same as Lebron's title in Cleveland or Dirk's in Dallas because of how he got it. I know he's in line to get more rings but that doesn't help him much, he's still a snake. The only reason some are lightening up on him is because Westbrook very well could have chased off Paul George this year and that will help paint KD as a guy who needed to get away from Westbrook because Russ was holding the Thunder back with his "me first" style of play.

We're seeing Lebron picked apart because he's still playing. Look at how Kobe is viewed now, he wasn't looked at the same when he was playing. Once he retired more people felt comfortable admitting he was clearly the best SG since Jordan and one of the best players of this last era. Jordan did get bashed when he played also. He was seen as someone who shot too much, didn't pass enough, was too aggressive with his teammates, and his shot selection was suspect. He didn't start receiving the praise he now gets until he hung them up again after his 2nd 3-peat. Lebron's legacy will be judged differently once he retires. There won't be as much for him and people will respect what he accomplished. That won't push him past Jordan but I'll bet more people will call him the GOAT then even if he never wins another ring.

What won't be forgiven is how he jumped from Cleveland to Miami and then back to Cleveland. Kobe played in LA his whole career and even though he did ask for a trade a few times that never came about and it's often ignored now when people call him one of the most loyal players ever. Jordan also only played for the Bulls for the majority of his career and establishing himself as the "GOAT". He played in Washington when he was 40, coming back from his 2nd retirement. So that's not viewed the same as Lebron bailing on the Cavs to assemble a super team with his 2 All-Star friends in Miami. Had he finished his career in Miami then I think the "Decision" wouldn't haunt him as much but he bailed on Miami also when it was clear things weren't going to be as easy as he thought and that team needed to be rebuilt around him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

“Pippen came to his rescue?” Where does his revisionist history come from. Pippen of the mysterious playoff migraines.

And I’m pretty sure a TON of people have lambasted Durant for ring chasing.

I don’t know what the talk was of lebrons turnovers last night, but the lamest defense for one individual is pointing out the flaws of another. They have zero causal affect on one and other.

Wow. Wisdom of Solomon type of post right there.

 

[Milgod]

This is like a debate over Ronaldo or Messi for who is the best footballer in the world right now.

There are those who think Ronaldo (James) and those who are right.

 

[Lefty]

LeBron just beat the Celtics in game 7 in Boston. I don't think MJ could of taken this Cleveland team to the NBA Finals.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

LeBron just beat the Celtics in game 7 in Boston. I don't think MJ could of taken this Cleveland team to the NBA Finals.

Maybe, maybe not. If I know one thing it's that it is impossible to find out.

 

[Russ Smith]

LeBron just beat the Celtics in game 7 in Boston. I don't think MJ could of taken this Cleveland team to the NBA Finals.

I think Jordan and Spike Lee could have beaten that Celtics team 2 on 5.

But yeah it was amazing to watch LeBron do it by himself. Boston just doesn't have enough offense, Tatum showed up big but Rozier and Brown laid big eggs tonight, it think they were like 6-30 between them or something like that.

Whoever wins game 7 between Houston and GSW should on paper win in a sweep but my guess is LeBron makes them play at least 6 games.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I think Jordan and Spike Lee could have beaten that Celtics team 2 on 5.

But yeah it was amazing to watch LeBron do it by himself. Boston just doesn't have enough offense, Tatum showed up big but Rozier and Brown laid big eggs tonight, it think they were like 6-30 between them or something like that.

Whoever wins game 7 between Houston and GSW should on paper win in a sweep but my guess is LeBron makes them play at least 6 games.

Or his supporting cast played very good defense throughout the game to hold Boston to just 79 points. Yes LeBron carried his team on offense, but if they don't play the tremendous team defense that they did, they don't win this game either. For as much flack as his supporting cast gets I think their defense gets overlooked quite often.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Jordan and Spike Lee could have beaten that Celtics team 2 on 5.

But yeah it was amazing to watch LeBron do it by himself. Boston just doesn't have enough offense, Tatum showed up big but Rozier and Brown laid big eggs tonight, it think they were like 6-30 between them or something like that.

Whoever wins game 7 between Houston and GSW should on paper win in a sweep but my guess is LeBron makes them play at least 6 games.

Probably 4-1 again Warriors in the Finals unless Houston can win the next game.

 

[HeHasRosen]

People complain about Lebron fans but the Lebron haters are worst. Give the king his respect please

 

[GatorAZ]

I can’t watch another Golden St/Cleveland finals.

 

[Russ Smith]

Or his supporting cast played very good defense throughout the game to hold Boston to just 79 points. Yes LeBron carried his team on offense, but if they don't play the tremendous team defense that they did, they don't win this game either. For as much flack as his supporting cast gets I think their defense gets overlooked quite often.

Well I made that argument in 2015 when the Warriors beat them without Love and Kyrie. It absolutely hurt the Cleveland offense, but the defense Cleveland had out there was significantly better.

But still over a full series the only offense the Cavs generated came from LeBron. He is a remarkable player.

 

[Mainstreet]

I can’t watch another Golden St/Cleveland finals.

This is why I was hoping the Rockets and Celtics would match up in the Finals.

 

[Hoop Head]

One thing I've never got about the Lebron > MJ argument is how Lebron consistently missed FT's at the end of big games. He did it tonight too. He's a terrible foul shooter for someone who is supposed to be the GOAT.

He is the best of this generation, without a doubt, but beating the depleted Celtics shouldn't be a career highlight for him.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well I made that argument in 2015 when the Warriors beat them without Love and Kyrie. It absolutely hurt the Cleveland offense, but the defense Cleveland had out there was significantly better.

But still over a full series the only offense the Cavs generated came from LeBron. He is a remarkable player.

I'm not arguing against him being a remarkable player and I think he is clearly one of the top 2 or so players to ever play the game.

However his supporting cast gets far more flack for being terrible than they should. They aren't a good offensive unit, but they have played well on defense all playoffs long.

LeBron's incredible offense would be all for not if the supporting cast wasn't playing such good defense.

 

[AZ Native]

I can’t watch another Golden St/Cleveland finals.

Next year we may not have to.

 

[AZ Native]

I think MJ was the GOAT as he made everyone around him so much better. And without his gambling habit, he would have won 8 in a row against some mighty stiff competition.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm not arguing against him being a remarkable player and I think he is clearly one of the top 2 or so players to ever play the game.

However his supporting cast gets far more flack for being terrible than they should. They aren't a good offensive unit, but they have played well on defense all playoffs long.

LeBron's incredible offense would be all for not if the supporting cast wasn't playing such good defense.

Agreed, they have played very good defense.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think MJ was the GOAT as he made everyone around him so much better. And without his gambling habit, he would have won 8 in a row against some mighty stiff competition.

Yeah part of the argument as I said before is Jordan retired at his peak, and then came back so he would have had even more rings and an even greater legacy.

As a Warrior fan I waited 40 years for another title after the 75 Rick Barry, Phil Smith, Jamaal Wilkes one. To see them in 3 straight and possibly 4 is amazing to me, then you realize LeBron is going to be playing his EIGHTH straight finals and you realize how amazing he is. yes the East has been hot garbage for many of those 8 years but that's not his fault.

Either Houston or GSW should win the finals relatively easily, just too much offense for LeBron to win by himself, but if he DOES somehow manage to win another title this year that would be epic.

 

[Hoop Head]

Eight straight finals in today's NBA can't be knocked. The NBA has changed a lot in those 8 years. With it starting at the tail end of the Spurs grind it out style that also had the old Lakers and old Celtics to the current spread the floor 3 point shooting era with the Warriors and Rockets. Lebron hasn't defined a style in the NBA like Jordan but he's been able to adjust his game to whatever he's facing and that's impressive.

Jordan defined the style in the 90's, Lebron has managed to adapt to the styles of play in the 2010's. I don't think one is really that much better than another, when trying to determine which means more. Define the style of play for an era or be able to match and play any style you face.

 

[AZ Native]

Does anyone really believe Jordan "retired to play minor league baseball" instead of continuing in the NBA winning more titles?

 

[Hoop Head]

Does anyone really believe Jordan "retired to play minor league baseball" instead of continuing in the NBA winning more titles?

What do you mean by that? Does anyone believe he actually retired to play baseball instead of being suspended or pushed out of the NBA because of his gambling? Your comment isn't very clear.