NBA Finals: LAKERS vs CELTICS (non-bias version 1.0)

[D-Dogg]

A Laker fan complaining about an opposing coach trying to dictate calls is RIDICULOUS with the crap Jackson throws against a wall trying to get something to stick.

yeesh... have some perspective.

Yeeesh, have some perspective indeed. I don't care if he submits tape all day long...or complains. It's what coaches do.

I think it is downright hilarious that he's complaining about MOVING SCREENS. The Celtics are notorious for moving screens. Perkins and KG are blatant offenders.

Out of all of the things he can complain about, he chooses the one thing his team does more often than any team in the league. Trying to dictate moving screen calls is counterproductive. Yeah, let's get the refs fired up to make those calls. Bizarre.

 

[cly2tw]

Fisher played in the 4th like he was seriously on some drug, from the body language and all. Plus, Allen couldn't hit anything. If it comes back to average on both account, I still see Celtics win this series.
Oh, did I say Gasol was really good at flopping. He again got a crucial foul call against KG in crunch time for fighting post positions, like he did to Amare in our game 6. Amazing.

 

[Sunburn]

Did anyone else think Anita Baker sucked singing the National Anthem? Why do major sporting events always get old, washed up singers to deliver the anthem and perform?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Did anyone else think Anita Baker sucked singing the National Anthem? Why do major sporting events always get old, washed up singers to deliver the anthem and perform?

my entire house is right with ya.

this series is boring me to tears.

 

[Proteus]

More stellar shooting from Ray Allen tonight : 1/6 from the field with 2 points.

 

[Cheesebeef]

More stellar shooting from Ray Allen tonight : 1/6 from the field with 2 points.

looks rattled out there too.

 

[Mulli]

my entire house is right with ya.

this series is boring me to tears.

I haven't watched any of it. No interest. The Stanley Cup Finals were much more entertaining.

 

[Griffin]

I've only watched parts of fourth quarters in this series, but in what I've seen I'm been very impressed with Glen Davis. If Amare played with half the intensity, desire and heart that Davis is playing with I think we could have gotten to the finals.

 

[D-Dogg]

Did anyone else think Anita Baker sucked singing the National Anthem? Why do major sporting events always get old, washed up singers to deliver the anthem and perform?

She was terrible. My wife thought she looked drunk.

Lamar also looked drunk out there. Way to fall apart at the hands of a drooling big baby and little giant.

And FFS, what constitutes a tech these days...Sheed is running around the court like a chicken with his head cut off. He's got 1 tech for doing it 5 times. I am SHOCKED they are allowing that to go on. I know they don't want to toss guys, but come on, at least TRY to show some composure on the court and play along a bit. If the refs are going to hold the whistle on regular season techs, why in the hell would you go Rainman on them to see just how wacky you can act before getting the T? Bizarre.

Before Game Three I felt we'd take games 3 and 5. So far, I'm not surprised. I am also not concerned with Andrew...he'll be well rested up for game 5, some good treatment and we won't have Lamar out there on Baby the whole time (total mismatch).

Interesting game - nice run by Boston at the start of the fourth, and nice ability for LA to keep it within striking range at the end. Crappy blocking call on Kobe at the end, but eh..they missed some key tech free throws, and way too many turnovers. Looked very much like Game 2 but LA had more control of the game overall, IMO.

So far, the Celtics have had MUCH better second halves than the Lakers, which Phil needs to get a handle on quickly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

man, I thought the Celtics got HOSED again tonight by the refs but they persevered and fought through it.

Game 5's gonna be a classic.

 

[S_Nash]

That blocking foul on Kobe was absolute BS. I really believe that in the final 2 minutes of a game (maybe not every game - playoffs or finals perhaps) that both teams get two challenges at a refs decision. I'd hate to lose an NBA finals game because of a bad call...

(Sorry Mavs fans...)

 

[Cheesebeef]

That blocking foul on Kobe was absolute BS. I really believe that in the final 2 minutes of a game (maybe not every game - playoffs or finals perhaps) that both teams get two challenges at a refs decision. I'd hate to lose an NBA finals game because of a bad call...

(Sorry Mavs fans...)

that was DEFINITELY a bad call but not as awful as not giving PP the and one when he punched the ref in the face... or the charge they called on Pierce against Kobe earlier in the game... or the three second call on KG... or the absolutely ridiculous flop they gave Gasol two FTs for when no one even came to close to touching him... or any time baby went to the hole and got clobbered and nothing was called.

that game reminded me a lot of Game 4 Suns-Lakers where our bench just dominated the entire fourth. How that happens twice in two series with Kobe and Pau out there I have no idea... maybe because Phil is consistently playing those guys entire fourth quarters and they're gassed.

 

[D-Dogg]

Again, tons of bad calls throughout. On both ends. I don't think the refs had much to do with this game overall. The charge you mention on pierce and Kobe early...eh, I've seen that go both ways. I say a no call is in order there. 3 second call on KG was very bad. Continuation on pierce's punch to Rush, not gonna happen ever - just like Kobe not getting three free throws on the foul at the perimeter when he had as much or more continuation. Gasol fall was a blown call, but Perkins grabbing jersey on rebounds was missed over and over. And still, tons of missed moving screens even though they called a couple. Bynum, incidentally, is probably the WORST at that but more because he sucks at it than anything else.

Overall, refs sucked like usual, they let them play more in the second half than they did in the first and again the second half was a non-call foul fest on both ends that led to ugly basketball, again.

Trend in the game in LA has been tight whistles early, then decent to bad officiating down the stretch. In Boston so far has been decent to bad officiating early, then let-em-play down the stretch. Games 1 and 2 were more watchable, IMO. I don't like the let-em-hack mentality.

Will be interesting to see the refs for the remaining three games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Continuation on pierce's punch to Rush, not gonna happen ever - just like Kobe not getting three free throws on the foul at the perimeter when he had as much or more continuation.

you're delusional if you think this. The announcers called it "and the foul!", my Laker fans in the room couldn't figure out why they didn't put the score up and every announcer after the game on NBATV said that was a ridiculous non-continuation. Pierce was dribbling the ball towards the basket, had picked it up, got a reach and laid it in. That's the very definition of continuation.

Catching the ball, getting a reach and then chucking it up from 3 isn't anything close to driving to the above and thus no one commented on it. "as much or more continuation"... good grief donald.

 

[D-Dogg]

you're delusional if you think this. The announcers called it "and the foul!", my Laker fans in the room couldn't figure out why they didn't put the score up and every announcer after the game on NBATV said that was a ridiculous non-continuation. Pierce was dribbling the ball towards the basket, had picked it up, got a reach and laid it in. That's the very definition of continuation.

Catching the ball, getting a reach and then chucking it up from 3 isn't anything close to driving to the above and thus no one commented on it. "as much or more continuation"... good grief donald.

Dude, I just watched it again in slow motion. Foul occurred one step inside the three point line, in between there and the elbow with Artest smacking the outside arm/stomach. Ball is being dribbled, and after the foul the ball hits the ground. Pierce picks up the dribble RIGHT at the elbow, and Artest is behind him, to the right. He takes TWO STEPS and lays it in. You will never get that call. Ever. I don't give two whiffs what Breen flips out about. He's terrible. Foul, dribble, no continuation, awesome punch on a crappy ref. Everything about that was perfect.

You don't get continuation on a touch foul up between the elbow and three point line, where you pick up your dribble and take two steps uncontested to lay the ball in. EVER. On any planet. I would have been all-state year after year if that crap got you buckets. You get the continuation call more often on touch foul jacked up shots on the perimeter with no dribble than you would on that move you are referencing...in fact Pierce is a MASTER at that perimeter throw up junk move.

Good grief, cheesebeef. Stop listening to announcers and use your own eyes.

 

[Gee!]

Celtics take game 5

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Man, I had no rooting interest going into the series but the Celtics behave like a bunch of children. I expected as much from people like Garnett and Nate Robinson (hated that clown since college) but please, just shut up and play the game. Such a detestable team of absolute morons.

 

[cly2tw]

man, I thought the Celtics got HOSED again tonight by the refs but they persevered and fought through it.

Game 5's gonna be a classic.

They called so many phantom falls of Rasheed on Gasol, and giving him a tech in the end, it's not funny. That blocking foul on Kobe was a makeup call by the refs. Had the Lakers got the momentum and won the game on a charging call on Pierce, the refs would get exposed for all those continual bad calls against the celtics!

PS: why is the display so screwed up for this site now!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Dude, I just watched it again in slow motion. Foul occurred one step inside the three point line, in between there and the elbow with Artest smacking the outside arm/stomach. Ball is being dribbled, and after the foul the ball hits the ground. Pierce picks up the dribble RIGHT at the elbow, and Artest is behind him, to the right. He takes TWO STEPS and lays it in. You will never get that call. Ever. I don't give two whiffs what Breen flips out about.

sorry Donald. when an entire HOUSE of Laker fans, me and EVERY announcer/analyst who watches, calls, coached and played (Barkley, Kenny Smith, Van Gundy, Wilbon) think it's an and one, it's an and one. Hell, Steve Nash got that EXACT call against you guys in Game 5 at the end of the game on pretty much the exact same play. Just because you're homerific eyes don't, doesn't mean I'm not using mine.

You don't get continuation on a touch foul up between the elbow and three point line, where you pick up your dribble and take two steps uncontested to lay the ball in. EVER. On any planet. I would have been all-state year after year if that crap got you buckets. You get the continuation call more often on touch foul jacked up shots on the perimeter with no dribble than you would on that move you are referencing...in fact Pierce is a MASTER at that perimeter throw up junk move.

and continuing to say Kobe's jacked up shot with no dribble was closer isn't just homerific, it's moronic.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Man, I had no rooting interest going into the series but the Celtics behave like a bunch of children. I expected as much from people like Garnett and Nate Robinson (hated that clown since college) but please, just shut up and play the game. Such a detestable team of absolute morons.

Ha, no doubt, was thinking that throughout the game. Then you have idiots like Mark Jackson waxing poetic about their intensity which is so contrived it's unbelievable. I hate to root for the Lakers, but between Garnett, Big Baby and Nate Robinson preening and freaking out after every play, I can't help it. It's just unseemly.

 

[Irish]

REFS:
How do they seem to end up with so may bad calls with the "best refs" etc.? The foul on Sheed when he did a classic "p;ull out the chair" deal when Gasol was leaning on him and then lost his balance. It didn't even look like a foul at speed. Didn't change the game, but I have to wonder.

BIG BABY DAVIS:
The Lakers all ub specialize in pushing guys out of position under the basket and pushing them around when they get the ball, Davis is about 290 pounds (pen NBA.com) and is too big to push and has good footwork. I don't know if getting an Oliver Miller is the answer, but the Suns have relaively light bigs who aren't strong enough to hold position.

Andrew Bynum Matters to the Lakers:
I'm not shocked that Davis had a strong game once Bynum was out. At 7'0" 285, Bynum's size and power make a huge impact against the Suns. With him out, all of sudden the Celtics could get to hole. As it was, the Celtics shooters had a lot of trouble with the Lakers bigs, but it was much worse when Bynum was in.

REGULAR SEASON IS NOT GOOD PREPARATION FOR THE PLAYOFFS
I guess the big value of playoff experience is learning to play differently in the playoffs. Against the Lakers, it is very important to make the extra pass and for players to keep moving and not just stant on the three point arc waiting for a pass. Everybody has to go after EVERY rebound including going to the floor. Playing bad teams doesn't really prepare the team for the push, grabbing, and fouling the playoffs treat as the norm.

 

[D-Dogg]

sorry Donald. when an entire HOUSE of Laker fans, me and EVERY announcer/analyst who watches, calls, coached and played (Barkley, Kenny Smith, Van Gundy, Wilbon) think it's an and one, it's an and one. Hell, Steve Nash got that EXACT call against you guys in Game 5 at the end of the game on pretty much the exact same play. Just because you're homerific eyes don't, doesn't mean I'm not using mine.

Wrong is wrong, cheese, and you are wrong. And Van Gundy, god love him, is wrong on a lot of calls, like fouls on the follow through. Wilbon? Barkley? Come on dude.

Nash didn't get that exact call, he completed the dribble and got hacked. Pierce hadn't completed his dribble when the contact was finished. It was picked up after the foul. If he had already picked up his dribble, I'd agree it was a bad call, but he didn't. The hack and two steps continuation call doesn't take place unless the dribble has been picked up. Couple that with the foul occuring between elbow and three point line, and it's a done deal. No way that is ever called. It is clear as day on the slow mo of that that the foul occurs, artest gets behind PP and then the ball hits the ground. A foul before the dribble is recovered..in fact, before it hits the ground. That's a foul on the dribble, not in the act.

Thing is, the NBA doesn't have a hard and fast continuation rule you can point to as to what constitutes it (shocking, but true). It is part of the act of shooting, which is an official's discretion.

"The act of shooting starts when, in the official's judgment, the player has started his shooting motion and continues until the shooting motion ceases and he returns to a normal floor position."

While allowing steps as the start of a shooting motion is inconsistent from ref to ref, I have never seen a ref rule that a player that has not yet picked up a dribble is in the act of shooting. That would be moronic, cheese, because I don't see any player in the league capable of shooting the ball when it is hitting the floor. This isn't the World Cup.

You can whine about it all you want, but it was the correct call. To term it as more awful of a call than the charge called a block (and 3 point swing at the end of a two possession game) is borderline psychotic...even IF it were actually an and-1, which it wasn't.

 

[Errntknght]

You'd think that if Donald and Cheese agreed on a call involving the Lakers, they would have to be right - but Kobe was moving his upper body to the left, into Pierce's path, at the time of contact, so the ref got it right. Most refs would have been fixated on Kobe's feet, which, indeed, were outside the little circle. I'd give odds the ref that called it was on the baseline because it was the replay from the baseline camera that clearly showed Kobe still moving. I think it was JVG who was crowing about Kobe's feet being outside the circle, which was true but irrelevant.

I know I was a bit surprised when Pierce got the continuation call, but I didn't replay it... refs are all over the map on that call so I wasn't greatly surprised. I thought the call was correct in the sense that Pierce was already on a direct path to the basket and the foul was attempt to get a call & abort the play by a beaten defender. IMO, that is the way the refs should always call that play, regardless of how many dribbles the guy takes subsequently.

I hate the way refs are calling moving screens these days, not calling them I should say. About 1 pick in 10 is done without moving because the refs let it go so frequently, and, of course, guys who go under a pick are completely fair game now.

 

[D-Dogg]

And furthermore, cheese, Donaghy agrees that it was not continuation. And say what you want about him, but making calls in the NBA was his JOB. Not Barkley or Breen or JVG's job...his.

http://deadspin.com/5561201/tim-donaghy-on-game-4-just-what-the-league-needed?skyline=true&s=i

Also, he doesn't see the one-sided affair you and cly are seeing, either. Nor did Bill Simmons in his running commentary. Nor did I. I thought it was bad both ways sometimes, nobody getting much of an upper hand and a lot of "let 'em play" towards the second half. When you have a Laker fan, and a hardcore Celtic fan like Simmons both thinking the same way, and throw in a villian ref who loves to rattle Stern's cage, I'm not going to trust your opinion on it.

 

[D-Dogg]

I know I was a bit surprised when Pierce got the continuation call, but I didn't replay it... refs are all over the map on that call so I wasn't greatly surprised. I thought the call was correct in the sense that Pierce was already on a direct path to the basket and the foul was attempt to get a call & abort the play by a beaten defender. IMO, that is the way the refs should always call that play, regardless of how many dribbles the guy takes subsequently.

That's the one from the start of the game, where the and-1 was called. I don't remember it and didn't look back at it but it didn't stand out to me at the time. I was more angry about the 2 blatant moving screens early on to free up Pierce.

The continuation argument cheese and I are referencing is late in the 1st quarter, and the foul takes place faced up, not with Artest reaching after being beat.

We'll never agree on it either, I'm guessing. I'd be interested to see continuation explained better because they seriously are all over the map on it since it isn't technically a "rule" and rather an interpretation of when the act of shooting begins.