OT: Michael Vick wants to own a dog

[Southpaw]

A lot of the kids he is talking to already know about dog fighting. Not to get into the whole "it's our culture" debate but I think he's talking at schools and to groups in areas where dog fighting occurs.

"They" are using Vick as an example to, hopefully, break the cycle of this being an acceptable thing. (To some people.)

It was a Philadelphia area charter school. Do you suspect there is a dog fighting culture in that venue?


A few other salient points gleaned from this article;

ESPN.com newsservices

As part of Vick's probation, he can't buy, sell or own a dog. And some of his critics believe that arrangment should be permanent.

"Just as convicted pedophiles aren't allowed free access to children, anyone who is responsible for hanging, electrocuting, or shooting dogs and who causes them to suffer in other unimaginable ways should never again be allowed access to dogs," said Lisa Lange, vice president of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, according to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "All things considered, it is a very small price to pay, especially compared to the suffering endured by the dogs who were abused and killed in the Bad Newz Kennels."

On Tuesday at a Philadelphia-area charter school, where Vick was speaking out against dogfighting, he was asked if he would return to the Eagles next season.

 

[Pariah]

I realize it's a sensitive subject, but comparing killing a dog to molesting a child is a HUGE stretch.

JMHO

 

[Sandan]

Idiotic the entire concept going on here.

You are entitled to your opinion, not all of us share it.

I still think that before being considered rehabilitated he should face the pit [the one I've advocated that be filled with hungry large dogs]. If he survives that then I'll consider him to be on his way.

This is all about rehabbing his image so he can start making $$$ on endorsements, I do not believe he is even slightly remorseful.

 

[Sandan]

Except I'm not really comparing the crimes as much as I'm comparing the criminals, but mostly I'm just challenging the logic. I'm not trying to play semantics here either, the logic for treating Vick and child molesters the same just doesn't hold up. I think it becomes more obvious if you extend that logic to jewel thieves.

Steve

Yes it does hold up, it's about a contempt for living things, your analogy is bogus as that is purely about profit motive.

 

[Pariah]

I do not believe he is even slightly remorseful.

Based on what?

I don't know if he is or not; I don't know the man.

EDIT: I have a friend who works in the media department for the Humane Society and he's attended some of the functions Vick is doing for kids as part of his community service. He came away a lot more impressed that he thought he would be.

 

[Diamondback Jay]

I realize it's a sensitive subject, but comparing killing a dog to molesting a child is a HUGE stretch.

JMHO

I think we all can agree, both are awful crimes.

 

[Pariah]

I think we all can agree, both are awful crimes.

Yes, but that's a big bucket. They shouldn't be sentenced the same.

JMHO

 

[Diamondback Jay]

Yes, but that's a big bucket. They shouldn't be sentenced the same.

JMHO

I agree completely.

 

[DemsMyBoys]

It was a Philadelphia area charter school. Do you suspect there is a dog fighting culture in that venue?

I have no idea. I don't know Philly. He spoke at the Boys' Latin of Philadelphia Charter school which I Googled.

Any further discussion would disolve into a a thread that should probably be in P&R.

He's spoken at multiple schools. It would be interesting to see a list.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I still think that before being considered rehabilitated he should face the pit [the one I've advocated that be filled with hungry large dogs]. If he survives that then I'll consider him to be on his way.

Do you feel this way about all criminals who have served their debt to society?

 

[earthsci]

Do you feel this way about all criminals who have served their debt to society?

That's a good point but part of his debt to society was to never own a dog again. As long as the punishment is constitutional and within guidelines this is just a conversation about whether his punishment was too harsh. If you commit a crime but don't like the punishment - suck it.

That said, I would take him on my team. The Bidwills would never do it though.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

That's a good point but part of his debt to society was to never own a dog again.

Very good point and he absolutely shouldn't own a dog. I have no problem with the "eye for an eye" judgement though. I was just wondering if Nidan's belief extends to all criminals or not.

 

[Southpaw]

I have no idea. I don't know Philly. He spoke at the Boys' Latin of Philadelphia Charter school which I Googled.

Any further discussion would disolve into a a thread that should probably be in P&R.

He's spoken at multiple schools. It would be interesting to see a list.

Ask Tony Dungy. I believe he is in charge of Vick.

BTW, in November , Vick spoke at 3 schools in New Haven, CT. Not sure New Haven is a hotbed for dog fighting.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/sports/football/24rhoden.html

 

[earthsci]

Very good point and he absolutely shouldn't own a dog. I have no problem with the "eye for an eye" judgement though. I was just wondering if Nidan's belief extends to all criminals or not.

10-4

: postpadding:

 

[BigRedRage]

I realize it's a sensitive subject, but comparing killing a dog to molesting a child is a HUGE stretch.

JMHO

agreed.

Even in prison everyone hates and kills child molesters, they probably look at vick like a sissy and with no animosity.

 

[BigRedRage]

I think we all can agree, both are awful crimes.

Child molestation and rape are the two worst crimes you can possibly commit, killing a dog is farrrrr down the list.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Sorta like Tyrone Biggins explaining to children why they shouldn't do drugs...

Got it.

You must be registered for see images attach

Love that skit.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I realize it's a sensitive subject, but comparing killing a dog to molesting a child is a HUGE stretch.

JMHO

Not just yours. IMO too.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yes it does hold up, it's about a contempt for living things, your analogy is bogus as that is purely about profit motive.

While I disagree, if his actions were proof of the above, I'd have left him in prison for life. In my world, this action would indeed prove that the man had no respect for life but he doesn't really come from my world. And I'm just not sure it's the same in his world.

Steve

 

[Sandan]

Do you feel this way about all criminals who have served their debt to society?

No but there are some actions that show the underlying psyche of the person [one was mentioned earlier].

In those cases the person should not go back into a situation where they are exposed to the temptation to re-offend. For example I wouldn't hire Bernie Madoff or any of his close associates as a financial advisor

 

[oaken1]

maybe none of you fellas did, but I grew up around dog fighting. one of my first jobs was to clean kennels for a guy down the street who had six fighting dogs,...twice a week, for ten bucks! I was eight years old then. Most of the dogs were cool, but he had a couple who were very mean, I had to trick them into a dog carrier so I could go in and clean their kennels.
Killing dogs is part of the business, often it is not just the dogs who lose fights.....many times a dog can live through a fight but be too badly injured to survive. So they are given a mercy killing. I never knew of any dog pits who kept a vet on hand to do it....but I did know a few guys who always had a needle or two full of barbituates so they could just put the dog to sleep if need be.
It is also the same with chicken fights, the knives on the spurs can do a lot of damage even to the bird that wins,...so you either let it bleed to death, or you pull its head off.
When I was a kid, I used to enjoy watching a chicken or dog fight once in a while, it can be exciting to watch.
It was a cultural thing. In my hometown, both were done all over the place, it was commonplace. It was not at all uncommon to see a few of the sherriffs deputies at the fights, occasionally even bringing their own animals.
All that being said, I am an avid animal lover, dogs specifically, and in no way do I advocate, support, or condone those activities. I would never put one of my dogs in that situation....they are part of the family.
I have a red nosed pit(just got him neutered yesterday) two english mastiffs, and a brindle boxer... none of which will ever be in a fight if I can help it.
But I do understand that in some areas of this country, fighting dogs or chickens is a large part of the culture. Some may state the illegal nature, and that may be true....but there were back room bars and speak easys all over this country during prohibition....the fact that it was illegal did not stop cops, judges, and politicians from having a few sips from time to time.
It was part of my culture, but I do not do it,...so I am inclined to believe that Mike Vick can stop fighting dogs and be a responsible pet owner as well.

 

[Sandan]

While I disagree, if his actions were proof of the above, I'd have left him in prison for life. In my world, this action would indeed prove that the man had no respect for life but he doesn't really come from my world. And I'm just not sure it's the same in his world.

Steve

He served his term so I have no problem with him being out but he clearly showed that he did not regard dogs as worth humane treatment, I do not believe you fix that easily, even if you want to. It's part of who you are just as my feelings the opposite way about dogs are part of me.

Cruelty to animals from what I have read is a well know precursor to other [and to some, to me cruelty to dogs is about the same] more serious crimes against people.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He served his term so I have no problem with him being out but he clearly showed that he did not regard dogs as worth humane treatment, I do not believe you fix that easily, even if you want to. It's part of who you are just as my feelings the opposite way about dogs are part of me.

Cruelty to animals from what I have read is a well know precursor to other [and to some, to me cruelty to dogs is about the same] more serious crimes against people.

I share the same feelings about dogs as you do but as I mentioned, I'm not sure we can apply the same reasoning to a person who grew up in an environment where this was natural. I wish we could change that environment but until we do, the people involved have to be viewed differently IMO. You can hold them just as accountable on the legal end but that's about it.

 

[Sandan]

maybe none of you fellas did, but I grew up around dog fighting. one of my first jobs was to clean kennels for a guy down the street who had six fighting dogs,...twice a week, for ten bucks! I was eight years old then. Most of the dogs were cool, but he had a couple who were very mean, I had to trick them into a dog carrier so I could go in and clean their kennels.
Killing dogs is part of the business, often it is not just the dogs who lose fights.....many times a dog can live through a fight but be too badly injured to survive. So they are given a mercy killing. I never knew of any dog pits who kept a vet on hand to do it....but I did know a few guys who always had a needle or two full of barbituates so they could just put the dog to sleep if need be.
It is also the same with chicken fights, the knives on the spurs can do a lot of damage even to the bird that wins,...so you either let it bleed to death, or you pull its head off.
When I was a kid, I used to enjoy watching a chicken or dog fight once in a while, it can be exciting to watch.
It was a cultural thing. In my hometown, both were done all over the place, it was commonplace. It was not at all uncommon to see a few of the sherriffs deputies at the fights, occasionally even bringing their own animals.
All that being said, I am an avid animal lover, dogs specifically, and in no way do I advocate, support, or condone those activities. I would never put one of my dogs in that situation....they are part of the family.
I have a red nosed pit(just got him neutered yesterday) two english mastiffs, and a brindle boxer... none of which will ever be in a fight if I can help it.
But I do understand that in some areas of this country, fighting dogs or chickens is a large part of the culture. Some may state the illegal nature, and that may be true....but there were back room bars and speak easys all over this country during prohibition....the fact that it was illegal did not stop cops, judges, and politicians from having a few sips from time to time.
It was part of my culture, but I do not do it,...so I am inclined to believe that Mike Vick can stop fighting dogs and be a responsible pet owner as well.

This disgusts me, I would have been incapable of doing what you did at any age. That you could stomach it at any age for any reason suggests you can never understand how I feel about this.

Further evidence that you simply don't get it is that you compare it to prohibition. The only correlation is Arther Dent vowing to "Never be cruel to a gin and tonic again". This has nothing to do with it's legality and everything to do with the cruelty.

You do not understand.

 

[Sandan]

When I was a kid, I used to enjoy watching a chicken or dog fight once in a while, it can be exciting to watch.

In reading this in more detail I need to add, I thought the post disgusted me until I reread it and noticed this. I can't express my level of disgust over this statement.

And it suggests you don't understand this statement

All that being said, I am an avid animal lover, dogs specifically,

These two comments IMO are incompatible