OT: Michael Vick wants to own a dog

oaken1

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This disgusts me, I would have been incapable of doing what you did at any age. That you could stomach it at any age for any reason suggests you can never understand how I feel about this.

Further evidence that you simply don't get it is that you compare it to prohibition. The only correlation is Arther Dent vowing to "Never be cruel to a gin and tonic again". This has nothing to do with it's legality and everything to do with the cruelty.

You do not understand.


Well I am quite tickled that you are disgusted so easily...very quaint how some people can be so judgmental over something a guy has not done since he was about ten years old.
The comparison to prohibition was simple and to the point.....legality is often overlooked, often even by those who make the laws.............and just to add a side note,...back when I was a kid,...dog fighting was not even illegal,...they only busted the fights to stop the illegal gambling.
The whole point of the post, was that often culture is what causes these actions, but people can change the way they view things, and how they feel about things. Because I have made some mistakes in my life, I try really hard not to be a judgmental prick and I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they do not deserve it.
You seen the statement in the post that I consider my dogs to be part of the family,...right??
So then,...are you suggesting that I would give my son a knife,...toss him into a hole in the ground with another boy, and tell him only one of them was coming out alive??
 

oaken1

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In reading this in more detail I need to add, I thought the post disgusted me until I reread it and noticed this. I can't express my level of disgust over this statement.

And it suggests you don't understand this statement

These two comments IMO are incompatible


really?? Ever watch football?? Boxing?? MMA fights??
It is a contest, a brutal contest yes, but a contest none the less.
People make their choices, the animals do not,...understood....but for the spectators, watching the contest is the same experience.
 

Chris_Sanders

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No but there are some actions that show the underlying psyche of the person [one was mentioned earlier].

In those cases the person should not go back into a situation where they are exposed to the temptation to re-offend. For example I wouldn't hire Bernie Madoff or any of his close associates as a financial advisor

Fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were looking at this from a vengeance or a temptation aspect.
 

Sandan

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Well I am quite tickled that you are disgusted so easily...very quaint how some people can be so judgmental over something a guy has not done since he was about ten years old.
The comparison to prohibition was simple and to the point.....legality is often overlooked, often even by those who make the laws.............and just to add a side note,...back when I was a kid,...dog fighting was not even illegal,...they only busted the fights to stop the illegal gambling.
The whole point of the post, was that often culture is what causes these actions, but people can change the way they view things, and how they feel about things. Because I have made some mistakes in my life, I try really hard not to be a judgmental prick and I give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they do not deserve it.
You seen the statement in the post that I consider my dogs to be part of the family,...right??
So then,...are you suggesting that I would give my son a knife,...toss him into a hole in the ground with another boy, and tell him only one of them was coming out alive??

I was 10 years old once and I could never have even contemplated being involved in what you say you where then. How is that being judgmental, how is considering dog fighting disgusting judgmental ?

Yeah I saw the part about considering your dogs part of the family, I also saw you post how you found the process exciting. Nowhere did you say that you had a change of heart on the subject of dog fighting, nowhere. I did see how you conveniently considered the dogs involved to be somehow 'different' than your pets
 

Sandan

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really?? Ever watch football?? Boxing?? MMA fights??
It is a contest, a brutal contest yes, but a contest none the less.
People make their choices, the animals do not,...understood....but for the spectators, watching the contest is the same experience.

If you look at my handle on this message board you might realize how ironic that comment is.

In my 30+ years of Martial Arts I have been involved in full contact fights [not that they are any more real than point matches but that is a different subject]. I am a 3rd Dan Black Belt [Sandan these days as opposed to Nidan when ASFN started] and I suspect I know far more about MMA than most do.

The point you utterly miss is that I chose to participate in a match, the dogs get no such choice. Also it isn't to the death [hence the reality comment]
 

Sandan

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Fair enough. I wasn't sure if you were looking at this from a vengeance or a temptation aspect.

I won't deny that personally [ie the pit comments] there is some vengeance motivation involved but I can separate that from what I actually advocate.

Clearly my comments about dropping him in a pit are meant to illustrate my emotions not be taken literally.
 

Chris_Sanders

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I will say that I think every child molester should be castrated. I can understand why dog lovers can never support Vick.
 

RugbyMuffin

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Nowhere did you say that you had a change of heart on the subject of dog fighting, nowhere.

:shrug:

All that being said, I am an avid animal lover, dogs specifically, and in no way do I advocate, support, or condone those activities. I would never put one of my dogs in that situation....they are part of the family..

I for one thank you for the insightful post oaken1.
 

BigRedRage

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In reading this in more detail I need to add, I thought the post disgusted me until I reread it and noticed this. I can't express my level of disgust over this statement.

And it suggests you don't understand this statement

These two comments IMO are incompatible


disagree 100%, I love dogs and would watch them fight. I would watch chickens fight. I would watch bears fight. I love people and enjoy watching them fight and also enjoyed watching movies like faces of death in my youth.

Just because you see things differently doesnty mean his views are wrong. Do I want my dogs to fight? no. My dogs are not fighting dogs.

Im waiting for a day where we pit one species vs another in a cage and put it on PPV.

Maybe I am just animalistic.
 

Sandan

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Why confused Rugby ?

I thought my statement was pretty clear. It seems to me that the quoted disclaimer is not entirely serious and while he doesn't supposedly condone dog fighting, neither does he condemn it.

I condemn dog fighting for many reasons, unequivocally and without any hesitation. I find it to be reprehensible and nothing excuses it in the US, we are hopefully more civilized than that.
 

desertdawg

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Vick did not just fight the "fight dogs", he did not have a drawer full of needles to put the dogs down humanely.

He tortured, beat, shot, electrocuted, hung, and did who knows what else to these dogs before he killed them.

You simply have to get off on it to commit these types of acts. This guy wants a dog now?

He did not just fight "fight dogs".
 

Sandan

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disagree 100%, I love dogs and would watch them fight. I would watch chickens fight. I would watch bears fight. I love people and enjoy watching them fight and also enjoyed watching movies like faces of death in my youth.

Just because you see things differently doesnty mean his views are wrong. Do I want my dogs to fight? no. My dogs are not fighting dogs.

Im waiting for a day where we pit one species vs another in a cage and put it on PPV.

Maybe I am just animalistic.

Again the dogs don't get to choose, hence this is a reprehensible behavior. Why is it that you and okaen1 don't get the difference ?

The dog has no choice and is a victim of the humans involved [organizers and audiences] brutality.

No not animalistic, brutal and cruel. Animals are not brutal slavemasters
 

conraddobler

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Again the dogs don't get to choose, hence this is a reprehensible behavior. Why is it that you and okaen1 don't get the difference ?

The dog has no choice and is a victim of the humans involved [organizers and audiences] brutality.

No not animalistic, brutal and cruel. Animals are not brutal slavemasters

You also can't ask the dog if it wants to be leashed.

By your logic dog owning should be banned entirely because you don't know for a fact they enjoy it or wouldn't of enjoyed something else more.

Maybe it would of enjoyed life in the wild, maybe it would of never asked to have been bred into something goofy that can't exist in the wild in the first place so that it gets hip problems, eye problems, inbred problems that a lot of the breeds do.

We never asked the dogs if they wanted to be eperimented on and bred or raped by other dogs to breed them.

How is that not also cruel?
 
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RugbyMuffin

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Why confused Rugby ?

I thought my statement was pretty clear. It seems to me that the quoted disclaimer is not entirely serious and while he doesn't supposedly condone dog fighting, neither does he condemn it..

If you don't believe him, and doubt his sincerety then you are stating your opinion of the situation, and he is now in a catch-22 situation with you because nothing he could state is going to sway your opinion, and you will believe nothing that he writes.

He clearly says he doesn't condone, support, etc. dog fighting. There it is, in text. You can't miss it.

If we are going to debate the sincerity and tone of said text then you win, cause I won't even begin to start trying to interpret the emotion of written text.

So, I was confused how you could have missed that very clear statement.

I condemn dog fighting for many reasons, unequivocally and without any hesitation. I find it to be reprehensible and nothing excuses it in the US, we are hopefully more civilized than that.

Yes, of course I know that. I have no problem with that situation. It is something your are extremely passionate about.
 
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Sandan

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If you don't believe him, and doubt his sincerety then you are stating your opinion of the situation, and he is now in a catch-22 situation with you because nothing he could state is going to sway your opinion, and you will believe nothing that he writes.

He clearly says he doesn't condone, support, etc. dog fighting. There it is in text.

If we are going to debate the sincerity and tone of said text then you win, cause I won't even begin to start trying to interpret the emotion of written text.

So I was confused how you could have missed that very clear statement.



Yes, of course I know that. I have no problem with that situation. It is something your are extremely passionate about.

Not condoning it is not the same as condemning it. It's not about sincerity/opinion, it's about what he said
 

Sandan

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You also can't ask the dog if it wants to be leashed.

By your logic dog owning should be banned entirely because you don't know for a fact they enjoy it or wouldn't of enjoyed something else more.

Maybe it would of enjoyed life in the wild, maybe it would of never asked to have been bred into something goofy that can't exist in the wild in the first place so that it gets hip problems, eye problems, inbred problems that a lot of the breeds do.

We never asked the dogs if they wanted to be eperimented on and bred or raped by other dogs to breed them.

How is that not also cruel?

  • A dog doesn't die if it is on a leash
  • A dog isn't in pain while on a leash
  • A dog isn't a wolf and hasn't been for many thousands of years hence is not [in most cases] equipped to survive in the wilds of Scottsdale
  • The current thinking is that dogs initial choose to live with man as a survival behaviour. It was easier than hunting.
  • If you tried to experiment on my dog you would find out how much I know about MMA
 

Mulli

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  • A dog doesn't die if it is on a leash
  • A dog isn't in pain while on a leash
  • A dog isn't a wolf and hasn't been for many thousands of years hence is not [in most cases] equipped to survive in the wilds of Scottsdale
  • The current thinking is that dogs initial choose to live with man as a survival behaviour. It was easier than hunting.
  • If you tried to experiment on my dog you would find out how much I know about MMA
awesome.
 

Sandan

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nidan, where did you get George?

Winnabark kennels, but I believe they are no longer in operation, we did get Oscar locally I just haven't been able to bring myself to pull George off my profile yet and put Oscar [black sharpei] there.

If you want the kennel name send Brighteyes a PM
 
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RugbyMuffin

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Not condoning it is not the same as condemning it. It's not about sincerity/opinion, it's about what he said

Can't agree with that. Sorry. That is really stretching it to make a point, IMO.

I don't know too many people that would go back and re-write something after they already say they don't condone, to further then write they condemn it.

But, if you want to bash the guy over symantics then go ahead. Just statin' I thought he pretty clearly stated he is not for dog fighting.

  • If you tried to experiment on my dog you would find out how much I know about MMA

Hence why I say you are passionate about it. Heck, I feel the same way about my kitty cat. I am in agreance with you on all this BTW, but you and I have never EVER agreed on the whole "learn about the why, who, and how" of some of the uglier things in lfe.

I believe that got me a "disgusting" comment once or twice :D

Sorry about George just noticed your avatar. :(
 
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Sandan

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Can't agree with that. Sorry. That is really stretching it to make a point, IMO.

I don't know too many people that would go back and re-write something after they already say they don't condone, to further then write they condemn it.

But, if you want to bash the guy over symantics then go ahead.

Furthermore, at first you ask to see where there is "a change of heart" now you want full fledge condemnation.

As I said. Catch-22

I understand your point and sympathize and the resolution is simple. All he has to do is post that this is what he meant and regrets his earlier involvement.

He will never understand my view on this or he could never have been involved at any age but he could but at least he could agree it was wrong.
 
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