Phoenix, Seattle Closing in on Deal?

[JWF]

If the suns trade for Lewis, he will start over Boris.
And, Boris is going to be a heck of a player, but he is not a better defender than Marion..........no way!

I agree Boris isnt better than Marion, but I would argue he fairs better guarding inside. Shawn seems to struggle against bigger SFs and PFs. I also agreeded with him that Boris might struggle on the perimeter against guys like Josh Howard...etc..

BTW...is Draftexpress.com a reliable source to begin with? I only seeing this being true if Marion is truely unhappy.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Like I said. If your only getting him for one year (which will happen)

Who says?

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

BTW...is Draftexpress.com a reliable source to begin with?

Look at post #26, second page.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You seem to forget that for a big man Amare is a below average rebounder. With his size and freak athletic abilities, he should get 10 rebounds a game on accident.

Losing Marion hurts no matter how much you want to spin it. He was the 3rd best rebounder IN THE LEAGUE. Just hoping that a maybe healthy Amare and Kurt will make up for that fact is begging for disaster

However I do have to admit that this deal is rather intriguing. Lewis is a good player and whomever the 10th pick would be could help us out a great deal. Wonder if they have someone in mind (if its Redick I'm going on a killing spree)

Here's the ultimate question though: How reliable is Draft Express when it comes to trade rumors coming true? If they have a bad history then this whole debate would more then likely be moot.



He was one of the better defenders on our team. I don't know about the league (he was fairly high up there in stats like steals, I know that for certain) but losing him does hurt.

I know people are getting reactionary with their Marion comments but keep in mind he was one of the key reasons we went on that run this year. He was just about the only player that went after boards.

1) As far as Amare is concerned, it's all about effort. We've seen that when he puts his mind to it and focuses, like he did in the playoffs two years ago, he can be a DOMINANT rebounder. He's gonna have to be that with or without Marion and I think losing Marion will be just another of a ton of motivating factors as Amare comes back.

As far as his health is concerned, I look at it this way. If Amare's not healthy, than a pairing of Marion and Amare doesn't mean jack squat as they ain't winning squat. However, if Amare's NOT healthy, this deal looks towards the future with an epxiring deal and a high draft pick. ON the other hand, if Amare IS healthy and motivated a pairing of Lewis and Amare is superior to Marion and Amare, especially in DA system predicated on offense, three point shooting and the ability to go to the basket - none of which Marion does particularly well.

As far as Marion being one of the better defenders on the team - that ain't saying much considering how piss poor most of the defenders on this team are and I truly don't see a difference between Marion and Lewis, excepting the fact that guys like Odom, Brand and Nowitzki, who tooled all over Marion anyway, will at least have to deal with someone who's 6'11 and won't just be able to run and shoot over them. Again, being one of the "better" defenders on one of the worst defensive teams in the league isn't worth much. He's replacable on defense IMO because he doesn't play good defense and his work on the boards, again, can be fused with Amare's comeback and Kurt Thomas coming back. I don't think that's begging for disaster because, again, if Amare's not healthy, than the entire team is screwed, we have Marion with a HUGE contract, zero high draft pick this year and young guys who will be the building blocks needing extensions, thus putting us in a hole needing to... AGAIN...trade Marion, but then, in a buyer's market, versus the seller's market right now.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I heard Chicago was intrested in him at the 16th spot.

They may be interested, and he could go higher than 20. I just know that his promise (the reason he stayed in the draft), is from a team higher than 20.

If the Bulls take Thomas at 2, no way they take Sene at 16. If they took Roy I could see it, although I think they would try to get Armstrong instead.

 

[JWF]

Look at post #26, second page.

gracias.

 

[Cheesebeef]

let's put it this way. Say we played the Sonics and Marion was on that team. Would you have ANY fear of him locking down, a) a Healthy Amare b) Lewis, who has 4 inches on him and histroically plays well against him or c) Boris, who will pump fake Marion into the air, draw fouls and drive around him at will?

 

[Cheesebeef]

here's another wya to look at it as well, from SA and Dallas' perspective.

SA:

Does anyone think SA worries about Shawn Marion on offense or Defense? He's been a non-factor against them since he's come into the league. So basically, they look at a situation where they look at us and know Shawn Marion doesn't do anything to them defensively and when he's on the court on offense, we basically play 4 on 5. HOWEVER, with Lewis, we give them a match-up nightmare on offense, thus, a plus for us.

For Dallas - THEY MUST HATE THIS DEAL and here's why:

Dirk AND Josh Howard had their way with Marion on offense and again, this year, Shawn did next to nothing on offense. So again, you might have Dirk use Lewis, but again, backing down and shooting over a 6'11 guy is thougher than a 6'7 guy and Howard with a 4 inch difference won't be able to back Lewis down the way he did. Will he get beat off the dirbble by those guys? Yeah, but Marion did as well, thus it's a wash on defense.

HOWEVER, because Marion did nothing on offense, Howard or Nowitzki could save energy for offense, whereas Lewis can back down Howard and take Nowitzki off the dribble.

Thus, against both teams, it's a relative wash on defense considering Marion's had no impact versus those clubs defensively but Lewis creates match-up NIGHTMARES for them on defense.

And this doens't even mention the fact that we get a lotto pick where we might pick up a shotblocker.

I guarantee you Avery and Pop don't wnat this deal to go down. They both attack Marion at every chance and both know how to make him next to useless on offense. That won't happen with Lewis, not to mention getting another stud in here.

 

[Evil Ash]

1) As far as Amare is concerned, it's all about effort. We've seen that when he puts his mind to it and focuses, like he did in the playoffs two years ago, he can be a DOMINANT rebounder. He's gonna have to be that with or without Marion and I think losing Marion will be just another of a ton of motivating factors as Amare comes back.

Key words: Can be. We are trading away our sure thing rebounder and expecting someone who not only played only 3 games this year but will also improve what could be considered one of his weaknesses. I love Amare, I really do but that is asking a ton.

As far as his health is concerned, I look at it this way. If Amare's not healthy, than a pairing of Marion and Amare doesn't mean jack squat as they ain't winning squat. However, if Amare's NOT healthy, this deal looks towards the future with an epxiring deal and a high draft pick. ON the other hand, if Amare IS healthy and motivated a pairing of Lewis and Amare is superior to Marion and Amare, especially in DA system predicated on offense, three point shooting and the ability to go to the basket - none of which Marion does particularly well.

Marion goes to the basket well, he just has a nasty tendency not to do it often enough. Like I said I'm not completely opposed to this deal because I like Lewis alot but ignoring Marion's impact on this team is getting ridiculous.

As far as Marion being one of the better defenders on the team - that ain't saying much considering how piss poor most of the defenders on this team are and I truly don't see a difference between Marion and Lewis, excepting the fact that guys like Odom, Brand and Nowitzki, who tooled all over Marion anyway, will at least have to deal with someone who's 6'11 and won't just be able to run and shoot over them. Again, being one of the "better" defenders on one of the worst defensive teams in the league isn't worth much. He's replacable on defense IMO because he doesn't play good defense and his work on the boards, again, can be fused with Amare's comeback and Kurt Thomas coming back. I don't think that's begging for disaster because, again, if Amare's not healthy, than the entire team is screwed, we have Marion with a HUGE contract, zero high draft pick this year and young guys who will be the building blocks needing extensions, thus putting us in a hole needing to... AGAIN...trade Marion, but then, in a buyer's market, versus the seller's market right now.

I'm just going form the standpoint of this ... We know that Marion is a good player that gets along well with everyone on the team on and off the court as well as a key contributor to our runs for the past couple of years (whether people want to acknowledge it or not), if our FO feels that the risk of giving that up is worth it then so be it.

This is the fairest deal for Marion thus far (not to mention the only one that doesn't sound like it was made up on the spot by a fan or reporter) and I'm not totally opposed to it. In fact I'm downright intrigued

 

[SunsTzu]

Looked up Lewis' stats against the Mavs and Spurs and I really don't think they're as worried as you think. He had one great game against the Mavs but thats it. Last years playoffs against the Spurs he was no better than Marion in the WCF, and the sad thing is when he matched up with the Spurs Bowen is normally on Allen.

Now I'm not totally against the trade, but I'd want more than swapping the 10and 27 picks.

 

[playstation]

bottom line offensively is that with a healthy amare shawn goes back to standing in the corner waiting for the kickout pass. in that role, rashard lewis is a better fit. shard shoots 49% from jumpshot to marions 43% from 82games.com

defensively, there is no way to say rashard comes close to marion's output, especially considering shawn will likely go back to guarding sf's next year, but you have to weigh that against fit as well.

as far as rebounding, that's not much a concern for me. marion's rebounds come at the expense of teammates more often than anything else.

if i were to guess the draft picks if this went down, i'd say carney at 10 and lowry and 21, so backups would be lowry, carney, maybe barbosa, TT, KT.

all this being said, i don't want this to go down. i say this again, next year marion is our FIFTH option. do you realize the damage he's going to do from that spot? they will keep forgetting about him and he's going to get TONS of easy stuff, even in he playoffs, because gameplanning for a garbage player is irrelevant compared to nash, amare, boris.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes because those trades are not even comparible. Marion is an All Star and TG had nothing left. Trading dead weight to save cap space is much different then trading away the best small forward to save space.

uh, if i'm correct we also traded away a first round pick in that deal (maybe even two if i'm remembering accurately). that (or those) is/are assets just to save cap space.

 

[SunsTzu]

Yes it was the 2 first round picks from the Marbury trade. Also the trade did not save any capspace since Googs' contract was expiring. The trade just put them below the cap just enough to get the shared revenue and if memory serves it came to less than $5mil. Still makes me sick thinking of trading those picks for nothing.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I called this.

I would look up the link but im a relative novice on the MB.

 

[Amare32]

this trade is only good if Amare is fully heathly. Then as mentioned Lewis would be a better fit for open looks. Shard is also younger. marion is better but as far as better fit..shard might be that but only if amare is heathly.

BUT Barbosa better not be added..otherwise it wouldn't be a good deal

sonics would be in great shape if they get marion and barbosa

 

[wilecoyotesupergenius]

If we add Barbosa to the deal then they better add Luke Ridnour...

 

[cly2tw]

this trade is only good if Amare is fully heathly. Then as mentioned Lewis would be a better fit for open looks. Shard is also younger. marion is better but as far as better fit..shard might be that but only if amare is heathly.

BUT Barbosa better not be added..otherwise it wouldn't be a good deal

sonics would be in great shape if they get marion and barbosa

This trade is especially necessary if Amare were not going be 100%. Lewis can carry out DA's game plan of relentless exploitation of mismatches much better than Marion.

 

[George O'Brien]

This trade is especially necessary if Amare were not going be 100%. Lewis can carry out DA's game plan of relentless exploitation of mismatches much better than Marion.

I honestly don't know what to think. How good (or bad) Lewis' defense? Who do the Suns have in mind at #10? Is there a third party to take Fortson? Who do the Suns have in mind at #21 and is he a possible replacement for Leandro?

I'm not clear either way if this is a good deal or not.

 

[joshstmarie]

If we add Barbosa to the deal then they better add Luke Ridnour...

!!!! where you been hiding


i think ridnour is about as untouchable as they come.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not sure what to think about this deal either. I do think Lewis would have a field day offensively, and I really like the post that talked about what will happen to Shawn Marion's game one Amare Stoudemire returns. Lewis is a much better fit in that case where he can camp out at the three-point line. In this offense I would not be surprised if he shot around 45% from the three-point line. He has a good enough shot, and he would get a wide-open attempts here.

He's also better at taking people to the basket, and he can post up the smaller players very well. We've seen this time and again against Shawn Marion.

You guys know that I think Shawn Marion's defense gets overrated on the message boards and especially by Shawn himself. That said, I do like his versatility and I think he gives a better effort than Lewis most of the time. I do think Lewis will improve on the boards if this goes down, but we would be better with Shawn Marion in that department as well.

I also believe we will miss Shawn Marion in the open court unless one of the players they are looking at in the draft can help there. That player isn't going to start though.


Lastly, I don't understand the financial benefits next season if Fortson is involved. I guess I'm waiting until a trade is completed to come up with a solid judgment on it. I'm with those who don't like the trade if Barbosa is involved UNLESS the trade also returns more than just #10 and Lewis. If their returns forts and I think I might puke.

Let's not forget one thing. This article doesn't say that Shawn Marion is absolutely a part of the deal. It just says that his name is being mentioned as a possible key component. I still think it's possible that they make a move in the draft with Seattle without it being such a blockbuster deal... possible.

This uncertainty is killing me.

Joe

 

[Mike Olbinski]

I havent't read this whole thread, so I don't know for sure, but it's amazing to me how quickly we're casting Marion aside, for someone like Lewis...

I'd part with him in a deal that brought us someone great...Garnett, etc...

But Lewis?

I love Shawn...we drafted him and I don't want to see him playing anywhere else.

This sucks if this trade happens...sucks bad.

Not to mention...I don't want to lose Barbosa either...I love that kid.

 

[JoRain]

well - Fortson is an expiring contract-that's the whole finansial side of it !
i also don't know really what to think about this trade - there are too many if's in there and i also don't like the trade if Barbosa is involved !!!
but that article also said, that no exact details are known yet !!!

 

[boisesuns]

I also believe we will miss Shawn Marion in the open court unless one of the players they are looking at in the draft can help there. That player isn't going to start though.

Carney is great in the open court and can shoot. He won't start on the suns, but he has a good jumper and can run the break very well.

 

[JWF]

Im not sure how ill feel about this trade if it goes down. I certainly want shawn around this year, but I understand he was gone next year anyways, and this deal presents good value in return.

 

[Covert Rain]

Finally you get it! You're right, we can get another player who can get 20 points (Lewis), with Amare and Kurt making up the difference in rebounds and defense. As far as Marion being able to play defense, that nothing more than a fallacy created by this board and nothing more.

Making up what difference??? Amare and Marion together did not have enough rebounding and defense last year. Kurt was too add TO their rebounding and defense. Now your going to take away a large part of that? No, I don't think you get it.

uh, if i'm correct we also traded away a first round pick in that deal (maybe even two if i'm remembering accurately). that (or those) is/are assets just to save cap space.

No we had to throw those in so that they would take him off our hands. I didn't say the Suns wouldn't make trades to clear cap space. I said that the Suns trading away a player who couldn't get off the bench is much different then trading a player who is a 20-10 guy and the 3rd best rebounder in the NBA.