POP: gasol deal incomprehensible

[D-Dogg]

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#91
It is possible if LA approached Shaq before he officially became a FA, and that, curiously, is when LA dumped salaries.

The link you provided didn't allude to that. That's your guess, not anyone else's. Did Shaq know they wanted him? Yes. Did they know that Shaq would be interested in them? Most likely. Did either party talk to each other direcly? Absolutely not. The Google link that abomb posted even mentioned that Shaq's agent didn't want him to mention the Lakers. EVERYONE knew it would be a good fit. EVERYONE expected a big play from the Lakers. That doesn't mean that there was tampering or collusion. In fact, they were being outwardly cautious to not even suggest it.

The Lakers cleared salary to make a play for Shaq, not because they KNEW they would get him. They figured they would.

 

[Covert Rain]

Now WHY would the Spurs have a pretty much constant winning percentage throughout the whole year when they were tanking? Won't they have a continuously declining record? In fact, their winning percentage (no counting the 1st two games where they were 0-2), was lowest at game 13.

LMAO. If you were tanking the season and playing to lose, why would your winning percentage continually go down??? That makes no sense whatsoever. In the NBA, even the bad teams are going to win from time to time. That doesn't mean they don't play consistently bad basketball.

Not to mention I can give a guy 30 minutes in a game and still pull him out at certain times to impact the game. As a coach your substitution patterns can have an adverse impact on the game.

Another baseless accusation. Robinson was actually brought back for 6 games before his season ended. Sean Elliott and AJ played well into the season before they were shelved.

EDIT: BTW, this was not the original argument anyways, you guys are literally just throwing **** and hope some sticks because you don't have anything of substance to say. Truly pathetic.

Wow brought back for an entire 6 games. You mean they shelved Elliot and AJ and didn't bring them back? You mean the Spurs didn't keep guys out that could have come back sooner? Your right...no tanking going on there.

 

[The Man In Black]

Not to mention I can give a guy 30 minutes in a game and still pull him out at certain times to impact the game. As a coach your substitution patterns can have an adverse impact on the game.

Are you saying that this factually happened or are you pre-supposing?

And DRob only played 6 games, because he suffered from not 1 but 2 different injuries. Back Surgery turned him from everything that Amare wants to be, into a guy that needed epidurals late in his career just to play. Add the broken foot and he was done. How you can call that a tank is unreal.


Whatever makes you feel good...DAWG.

I guess you guys are still pissed about Neal Walk.

 

[Darth Llama]

What happened shows you are wrong. They started off with a $95 million offer and had to keep moving players to create the salary to do $122 million dollar deal. Orlando kept upping the ante but the Lakers banked on their history, management and the LA allure to get him there. If they knew he was coming, why would they not have cleared up the right amount of money instead of dumping contract after contract during negotiations.

They went out on a limb, but confident they could get the prize. They didn't "know" they would get him, but they were pretty sure he'd want to play there. That's not collusion or tampering or cheating. It's leveraging your long, established history of winning titles, management willing to do whatever it took and living in an entertainment capitol.

I have pretty much learned by now, that certain people here just make up their own history when they want to be right. I have read some pretty crazy bits of made up Laker history on this forum over the last couple weeks. You can argue with logic and documented facts all you want, some people just aren't going to listen.

For what it's worth though, great post. You are absolutely correct.

 

[Bufalay]

wait Kobe didn't refuse to play for Charlotte? I remember hearing that he wouldn't play for them and that's why he was traded to the Lakers, Eli Manning style.

 

[D-Dogg]

wait Kobe didn't refuse to play for Charlotte? I remember hearing that he wouldn't play for them and that's why he was traded to the Lakers, Eli Manning style.

No.

I don't know when that rumor started, but it's believed by many. Never happened. I was paying attention back then because of all the rumblings from LA of how impressed Jerry West was with Kobe and his workout, and how he wanted to move up to get him. Nobody thought he COULD move up to get him, but it was known he wanted to.

 

[ambchang_]

What happened shows you are wrong. They started off with a $95 million offer and had to keep moving players to create the salary to do $122 million dollar deal. Orlando kept upping the ante but the Lakers banked on their history, management and the LA allure to get him there. If they knew he was coming, why would they not have cleared up the right amount of money instead of dumping contract after contract during negotiations.

They went out on a limb, but confident they could get the prize. They didn't "know" they would get him, but they were pretty sure he'd want to play there. That's not collusion or tampering or cheating. It's leveraging your long, established history of winning titles, management willing to do whatever it took and living in an entertainment capitol.

The link you provided didn't allude to that. That's your guess, not anyone else's. Did Shaq know they wanted him? Yes. Did they know that Shaq would be interested in them? Most likely. Did either party talk to each other direcly? Absolutely not. The Google link that abomb posted even mentioned that Shaq's agent didn't want him to mention the Lakers. EVERYONE knew it would be a good fit. EVERYONE expected a big play from the Lakers. That doesn't mean that there was tampering or collusion. In fact, they were being outwardly cautious to not even suggest it.

The Lakers cleared salary to make a play for Shaq, not because they KNEW they would get him. They figured they would.

But tampering could be much less than that. They could approach Shaq before he was officially a FA and asked him if he would come play for a substantial amount. They didn't have to agree to terms, and Shaq could have pushed his price up after getting an offer from the Magic.

Point is, LA had enough confidence that Shaq would sign with them to part with a significant amount of salary for a very risky move, and enough suspicion was raised for the Magic to consider filing tampering charges.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_n43_v220/ai_18775981

BTW, the link I provided showed what tampering means, it could be tampering if a player is contacted before he officially becomes a FA.

 

[ambchang_]

LMAO. If you were tanking the season and playing to lose, why would your winning percentage continually go down??? That makes no sense whatsoever. In the NBA, even the bad teams are going to win from time to time. That doesn't mean they don't play consistently bad basketball.

Not to mention I can give a guy 30 minutes in a game and still pull him out at certain times to impact the game. As a coach your substitution patterns can have an adverse impact on the game.

Do you know what tanking means? Do you know why teams tank? Teams tank when they know that they have no hope of making the playoffs, and start throwing away games to land a higher chance at getting the top pick. Teams don't go 5-10 in March so that they could end up couple of losses out of the worst record to reduce their chances at getting the top pick.

And the Spurs played continuously bad basketball because they were terrible that year. Robinson was injured all but 6 games, Chuck Person hurt his back on the plane and was forced to retire, Elliott was injured a big chunk of the season, they had to start Greg Anderson and Monty Williams, they had to start a 37 year old Dominique Wilkins to give them some scoring.

If you are asserting the Spurs pull key players out of the end of the games, show me. I have gone through the research and came up with hard facts, while your strongest "evidence" was "I remember it happened 10 years ago". So how many Spurs games did you watch back then? What were the games, what were the circumstances? Any recaps or videos to support your claims?

Wow brought back for an entire 6 games. You mean they shelved Elliot and AJ and didn't bring them back? You mean the Spurs didn't keep guys out that could have come back sooner? Your right...no tanking going on there.

You do know Elliott had a chronic tendinitis in his quadriceps and had to go through surgery, then only played 36 games in 97-98 (Duncan's 1st year), right? You DO know that Avery Johnson play the last games of the season, coming back from injuries, right? You do know that Robinson's career was changed after 97, and he had chronic back problems after that, right? In fact, his scoring average went down to 21.6 ppg, 15.8, 17.8, 14.4, 12.2 and 8.5 the rest of his career after averaging 29.8, 27.6 and 25 the three years prior to injury, right? You DO know that Robinson actually came back from back injuries for 6 games to salvage the season, tehn broke his foot and had to go through surgery, right?

I would be very happy to continually showing you the history of the Spurs, but I do prefer that you actually read up on it before throwing things out as facts.

So tell me again, how did you enjoy a lineup of Greg Anderson, Vinny Del Negro, Carl Herrera, Avery Johnson and Monty Williams? You must be cheering for this team like a mad man, fully expecting them to go 44-38 and earning the 8th seed.

 

[ambchang_]

I have pretty much learned by now, that certain people here just make up their own history when they want to be right. I have read some pretty crazy bits of made up Laker history on this forum over the last couple weeks. You can argue with logic and documented facts all you want, some people just aren't going to listen.

For what it's worth though, great post. You are absolutely correct.

You mean how the Spurs tanked the 96-97 season?
If you mean Shaq tampering, go ask Magic front office on why they considereing filing tampering charges. I didn't make that up, it happened! Shocking isn't it?

 

[Renz]

If you mean Shaq tampering, go ask Magic front office on why they considereing filing tampering charges. I didn't make that up, it happened! Shocking isn't it?

But Orlando didn't file tampering charges, did they? That means they had no proof, just speculation. I know it is inconceivable that a free agent would choose the Lakers over the Magic. Shocking, isn't it?!

Speculate all you want about the Lakers "tampering" with Shaq, but no smoking gun has appeared over the last 9 years, probably because...IT NEVER HAPPENED.

 

[nowagimp]

But Orlando didn't file tampering charges, did they? That means they had no proof, just speculation. I know it is inconceivable that a free agent would choose the Lakers over the Magic. Shocking, isn't it?!

Speculate all you want about the Lakers "tampering" with Shaq, but no smoking gun has appeared over the last 9 years, probably because...IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Wow what a naive view of the world. When big money and lawyers are involved, there is " no evidence" a whole lot, most of the time. Thats why shaqs lawyer(and Im sure the laker lawyers) told him not to mention the lakers, the only evidence would be coming out of his mouth. What evidence could there be, a wiretap? I doubt that. Secret tapes perhaps? There was "no evidence" against richard nixon without the unerased tape. Jerry West would be an idiot not to tamper before the deal with all that money on the line, and an even bigger idiot to leave evidence of tampering when represented by big time lawyers.

 

[Renz]

Wow what a naive view of the world. When big money and lawyers are involved, there is " no evidence" a whole lot, most of the time. Thats why shaqs lawyer(and Im sure the laker lawyers) told him not to mention the lakers, the only evidence would be coming out of his mouth. What evidence could there be, a wiretap? I doubt that. Secret tapes perhaps? There was "no evidence" against richard nixon without the unerased tape. Jerry West would be an idiot not to tamper before the deal with all that money on the line, and an even bigger idiot to leave evidence of tampering when represented by big time lawyers.

So your argument is "tampering happened because there is no evidence of it"?

What is that statement in bold based on? There must be tampering if Shaq chose L.A. over Orlando?

 

[nowagimp]

So your argument is "tampering happened because there is no evidence of it"?

What is that statement in bold based on? There must be tampering if Shaq chose L.A. over Orlando?

No Im just laughing that you use the "absence of evidence", the most likely case even in the event of tampering, as proof it didnt happen. The world is a much more complex place than you seem to believe.

 

[Renz]

No Im just laughing that you use the "absence of evidence", the most likely case even in the event of tampering, as proof it didnt happen. The world is a much more complex place than you seem to believe.

LOL! When you accuse someone of wrongdoing in this country, it is generally accepted that you have some sort of evidence to back up that accusation.

I mean something besides, "I hate the Lakers".

 

[Renz]

Interesting that Gregg Popovich has now spoken up on the Lakers aqiring gasol for 3 packs of cigarettes and a free movie pass.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3239478

I guess that all around the NBA people are now speaking of other deals what were offered for gasol. Apparently the griz just wanted to tank it for this year and get the pick and have big free agent money.

Good to see someone finally calling out Popovich for his idiotic tirade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4dQtXd8ns

 

[nowagimp]

LOL! When you accuse someone of wrongdoing in this country, it is generally accepted that you have some sort of evidence to back up that accusation.

I mean something besides, "I hate the Lakers".

I dont hate the lakers, they were one of my favs when they had magic. Its about reality, insider trading goes on all the time, but there is no evidence, 'cept martha stuart. You dont realy believe she was a big fish do you? When big money is involved, its worth it(and its expected, its just business) in the good ole USA to go the extra mile.

 

[BeeBeard]

From Larry Coon's exceptional Salary Cap FAQ:

"Tampering is when a player or team directly or indirectly entices, induces or persuades anybody (player, general manager, etc.) who is under contract with another team to negotiate for their services." (emphasis mine)

That's an extremely low threshold for misconduct, wouldn't you agree? When I read that, I asked myself "How do you build a competitive team and not tamper?" When you consider that the penalties for doing it (or rather, being caught doing it) are still pretty minor, then where is the disincentive? Two and a half million in fines for a first-time offender? For a team with a $70+ million payroll? Don't make me laugh. The worst that can possibly happen is the team in question forfeits a draft pick or the new player contract is voided. Care to guess how often that's happened? Yeah, exactly. It's all right there in the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

But arguing that "Orlando would have argued for tampering before an arbiter if it had existed" is a pretty specious argument. Cause for any claim can always exist, even though no case has been brought (i.e. you cannot disprove a negative). In fact, in jurisprudence, there are statutes of limitations that deal with this exact problem: people find out that something was amiss, or new evidence comes to light, etc., but it's too late--they already had their window to do something about it. What's done is done.

Plus, there wouldn't have been much point for Orlando to pursue this anyway. The best that they could have realistically hoped for would be penalties imposed upon L.A. and some financial compensation--NOT specific performance by O'Neal in Orlando on his existing contract. In other words, if O'Neal wanted out, he could not be forced to play for Orlando against his will. There is no such thing as indentured servitude in this country any longer, and by law you CANNOT get specific performance on a service contract. You can fine, fine, fine these guys, but they can still sit back and laugh and then sign with another team anyway. Such is the power of money.

INTERESTING TIDBIT: Also, according to the Collective Bargaining Agreement, publicly demanding to be traded has been against the rules for years now. It's just that a great many NBA players have both contempt for the rules they're supposed to abide by and plenty of money to pay fines. (I'm looking at mother effing you, Marion and Kidd!)

CYNICAL SIDENOTE: Oh, and if you thought that NBA players really care about "helping the community" with those "NBA Cares" TV spots, hospital visits, and so on, I just want to cynically point out that they are contractually obligated to do it.

 

[Covert Rain]

If you are asserting the Spurs pull key players out of the end of the games, show me. I have gone through the research and came up with hard facts,

Proof please? I watched several Spurs games that year and POP would sit his starters and go to the end of the bench in the games I watched. Show me your research and hard facts. Show me an official record of his substitution patterns that show specifically when he pulled guys, sat them, reinserted them.

Also, I still assert that the Spurs had guys that could have come back and played and purposely held guys out longer then needed to ensure their record was as bad as possible. There is no way to prove or disprove that.

Good to see someone finally calling out Popovich for his idiotic tirade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4dQtXd8ns

Nice and on the money.

 

[BeeBeard]

If this isn't wag the dog, I don't know what is.

When you consider the context of Popovich's comment, it makes self-important greaseballs like Jim Rome look pretty foolish. Pop was actually laughing, joking around, and completely kidding when he uttered these words to a reporter before the Knicks game. I know this because I saw the exact footage from which this comment was extracted because I was watching the Spurs' feed of the game in question.

I think the desire by the press to jump on Pop for saying that, even in a lighthearted context, is a symptom of the media's changing attitudes toward the Spurs. People are getting really tired of this group of the same cast of characters, who play ugly basketball and flop all over the court. From Duncan's pissy little looks when he doesn't get superstar calls, to the extracurricular banging that other players on his team engage in, the Spurs don't comport themselves like NBA champions at all.

So it's hard even for the media to not find reasons to jump all over this team right now. But as a lifelong Spurs hater, THAT is something I can 100% support!

I'm looking forward to an upcoming "Tim Duncan Prefers to Wear Black Socks, Makers of White Socks Outraged" expose.

 

[ambchang_]

But Orlando didn't file tampering charges, did they? That means they had no proof, just speculation. I know it is inconceivable that a free agent would choose the Lakers over the Magic. Shocking, isn't it?!

Speculate all you want about the Lakers "tampering" with Shaq, but no smoking gun has appeared over the last 9 years, probably because...IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Of course they didn't, if it was proven, it wouldn't be called speculation now would it?

I just find it curious why you have to find a smoking gun to show that the Lakers tampered, and yet everybody knew the Spurs tanked in 97 to get Duncan despite huge amounts of evidence to the contrary.

 

[ambchang_]

Good to see someone finally calling out Popovich for his idiotic tirade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4dQtXd8ns

Jim Rome? You used Jim Rome? Haha, any Stephen A Smith tirades?

And LOL at Rome going on and on about the committee comment, it was obviously tongue and cheek and spoken as a parallel to how stupid the Gasol trade was, but .... ah ... forget it, it is difficult to explain things to people who use Jim Rome for supporting arguments.

 

[ambchang_]

Proof please? I watched several Spurs games that year and POP would sit his starters and go to the end of the bench in the games I watched. Show me your research and hard facts. Show me an official record of his substitution patterns that show specifically when he pulled guys, sat them, reinserted them.

I showed you minutes played, improving records, players going on surgeries. You were the one asserting that the Spurs had questionable substitution patterns, not me. Your only prove to your assertion was that "I watched several Spurs game that year".

Why would your assertions be held as truth before I can disprove them, and yet you can conveniently ignore my assertions WITH prove attached?

Also, I still assert that the Spurs had guys that could have come back and played and purposely held guys out longer then needed to ensure their record was as bad as possible. There is no way to prove or disprove that.

Nice and on the money.

Of course there is, Elliott playing 36 games the following season is prove, Robinson having his career diverted and limited after that season is prove, and yet even though you said that there is no way to prove or disprove that, you freely used that as "evidence" that the Spurs tanked. I can see a bright future for you as a lawyer.

 

[Renz]

Of course they didn't, if it was proven, it wouldn't be called speculation now would it?

I just find it curious why you have to find a smoking gun to show that the Lakers tampered, and yet everybody knew the Spurs tanked in 97 to get Duncan despite huge amounts of evidence to the contrary.

Because you can come up w/evidence supporting your claim that the Spurs tanked, albeit circumstantial.

I admit that tampering is hard to prove. In the case of L.A. tampering with Shaq, and in the absence of anything concrete to support either position, I look at the "most likely" scenario.

Is it really hard to believe that L.A. dumped salary in order to go after the premier FA in the league? Is it fishy that Shaq signed with the Lakers for more money than Orlando offered? Considering the disdain that Shaq has had for Jerry Buss the last few years, might he not have mentioned recently that L.A. tampered with him before he left Orlando for the Lakers?

Maybe Shaq was tampered with by the Lakers, but considering it was pretty much common knowledge that Shaq wanted out, I don't see any reason for L.A. to have tampered to get Shaq.

Anyway, we can go round-and-round all day, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Renz]

Jim Rome? You used Jim Rome? Haha, any Stephen A Smith tirades?

And LOL at Rome going on and on about the committee comment, it was obviously tongue and cheek and spoken as a parallel to how stupid the Gasol trade was, but .... ah ... forget it, it is difficult to explain things to people who use Jim Rome for supporting arguments.

Ah, the classic "kill the messenger, ignore the argument" defense. I saw an interview that Popovich gave criticizing the Gasol trade and he definitely wan't laughing or smiling. Maybe it was a different interview than the one Rome is talking about, but Pop was crying just the same.

 

[BeeBeard]

Ah, the classic "kill the messenger, ignore the argument" defense. I saw an interview that Popovich gave criticizing the Gasol trade and he definitely wan't laughing or smiling. Maybe it was a different interview than the one Rome is talking about, but Pop was crying just the same.

Huh? Nobody is raising a "kill the messenger" defense here--although that's not a bad idea! Jim Rome is pretty much a dick regardless of his views.

Regarding the interview you're speaking of, do you have some sort of link or source to share for this? Because the comments actually in question (i.e. those referenced in the title of this thread) were made before the Knicks game. And Pop was definitely, absolutely kidding. There's no "messenger" at all here, just the collective hive mind of a lazy press corps that cuts and pastes comments like Pop's without providing the slightest context clues.

Then people like Rome read the no-context comments on the whirl why innerwebs and use them to try to justify whatever petty, preconceived opinion they had about whomever said them. But that's practically to be expected in the case of Jim Rome, who has made a career on irresponsibly slanting item-of-the-day sports topics.

In case you think that's NOT the case here, then you should probably alert the authorities regarding what I wrote in the first paragraph. Jim Rome's life is in grave danger!