Rockets @ Suns Saturday game thread 12-21-19

[BC867]

Although I agree for the most part, our perimeter defense has been the bigger problem lately

Of course it is. Ayton is out of action again.

 

[Phrazbit]

The difference is that Cam and Jerome are pretty much a guarantee of a double digit minus in any game they play. This isn't just a bad game for them.

Ty Jarome has been awful (should be noted, you supported the pick at the time), Cam Johnson on the other hand has been low on our list of woes. But... you've proven yourself totally unable to evaluate him fairly.

Listen, I know you're completely unreasonable and all... and I know you wanted them to draft Clarke (so did I). But your takes on Cam Johnson have been laughably stupid... you should give it a breather.

 

[Phrazbit]

maybe you've seen it from Ouchie, or me, or a host of others who said the exact same thing during the off-season. We just don't need to repeat ourselves every game and demand credit for saying it because we don't live off the validation of others that you seemingly crave more than anything else on the internet.

He acts like he is Nostradamus if one of his million dire predictions show any sign of truth... just don't remind him of the countless times he said things like "Oubre will sign a max deal with the Knicks" or that Austin Rivers is an elite/freak athlete, especially in comparison to any Suns player.

 

[1Sun]

He acts like he is Nostradamus if one of his million dire predictions show any sign of truth... just don't remind him of the countless times he said things like "Oubre will sign a max deal with the Knicks" or that Austin Rivers is an elite/freak athlete, especially in comparison to any Suns player.

The lack of defense and athleticism on this roster was not a "prediction". It was an observation in real time of an obvious flaw in James Jones's approach. I was lambasted for it, and now that the obvious flaw keeps manifesting itself, it is suddenly being treated as a revelation. Sheesh.

 

[Phrazbit]

The lack of defense and athleticism on this roster was not a "prediction". It was an observation in real time of an obvious flaw in James Jones's approach. I was lambasted for it, and now that the obvious flaw keeps manifesting itself, it is suddenly being treated as a revelation. Sheesh.

Nah, you were lambasted for saying absolutely, flat out idiotic statements like "this is the least athletic team in 50 years" and claiming that Austin Rivers is a better athlete than Kelly Oubre.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I was at the game and Williams was just outcoached last night. Pringles ran it so Cam would get switched onto Harden or Westbrook over and over.

After like the 4th time this occurred I kept thinking okay so double Harden and make someone else shoot and it just never came until the very end of the game.

It's just not reasonable to expect any rookie to guard Harden / Westbrook let alone a kid who has limited athleticism

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I will also note that if you want to know why Harden is great he was out on the court 80 minutes before the start of the game and shooting 3 pointers from every spot and doing it with a variety of moves. Anywhere he missed he would keep shooting til he was comfortable


No other Sun or Rocket was out there until about 40 minutes later and Saric came out and shot fr just inside the perimete

 

[swagron]

I will also note that if you want to know why Harden is great he was out on the court 80 minutes before the start of the game and shooting 3 pointers from every spot and doing it with a variety of moves. Anywhere he missed he would keep shooting til he was comfortable


No other Sun or Rocket was out there until about 40 minutes later and Saric came out and shot fr just inside the perimete

Excellent observation. Some players just want it more.

 

[Mainstreet]

Given time I think Ty Jerome will surprise. He is a smart player and a crafty passer. His shooting is only beginning to come around. Jerome was never predicted to be a starter.

 

[mjb21aztd]

My god suns def is putrid they give up like 110 plus every gm just sad...

If suns i hate to say keep losing and somehow get a top pick they need to add a low post def player... is thar dude James cant remember gus last name from Memphis i think is he a good rim protector?

 

[82CardsGrad]

Was at the game last night and my fundamental observations are:

- This team simply lack quality depth. We continue to be forced to play with key starters missing... last night both Rubio and Ayton were out. This issue continues to throw all kinds of wrenches into Monty’s gears.

- It is simply unfair to expect more from this team, given how key starters are always out, combined with the lack of depth and our youth.

- This team plays hard all game. They just aren’t good enough or deep enough. That said, I did see a few times where Baynes took a play off. Surprising... but he simply looked gassed.

- Really not sure about Cam. He can shoot. There is no doubt about that and I would expect his shot will only improve over time. He tries very hard on defense. But his mobility is awkward at best. I don’t see him ever being a reliable rebounder... I’m starting to wonder what his real value will be, other than as a straight catch & shoot guy?

- Jerome is very intriguing to me. Not the most athletic... but he’s got game. Can shoot. Good instincts. He’s young, but I am hopeful he will develop nicely...

And then there is Devin Booker. I can’t help but feel so bad for the guy. He simply never had had, and still doesn’t, a proper supporting cast who can even remotely play in ways that would facilitate more production from Book. Yet, he is being extremely loyal to Monty, doing anything and everything Monty is asking of him, while staying loyal to the system.
He is constantly harassed with double-teams and has to become Superman almost each time he touches the ball... It’s exhausting to watch and I wonder how much longer Booker will tolerate this...

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Excellent observation. Some players just want it more.

I was pretty disappointed that no Sun showed the same level of determination and only Saric got close

 

[Mainstreet]

Was at the game last night and my fundamental observations are:

- This team simply lack quality depth. We continue to be forced to play with key starters missing... last night both Rubio and Ayton were out. This issue continues to throw all kinds of wrenches into Monty’s gears.

- It is simply unfair to expect more from this team, given how key starters are always out, combined with the lack of depth and our youth.

- This team plays hard all game. They just aren’t good enough or deep enough. That said, I did see a few times where Baynes took a play off. Surprising... but he simply looked gassed.

- Really not sure about Cam. He can shoot. There is no doubt about that and I would expect his shot will only improve over time. He tries very hard on defense. But his mobility is awkward at best. I don’t see him ever being a reliable rebounder... I’m starting to wonder what his real value will be, other than as a straight catch & shoot guy?

- Jerome is very intriguing to me. Not the most athletic... but he’s got game. Can shoot. Good instincts. He’s young, but I am hopeful he will develop nicely...

And then there is Devin Booker. I can’t help but feel so bad for the guy. He simply never had had, and still doesn’t, a proper supporting cast who can even remotely play in ways that would facilitate more production from Book. Yet, he is being extremely loyal to Monty, doing anything and everything Monty is asking of him, while staying loyal to the system.
He is constantly harassed with double-teams and has to become Superman almost each time he touches the ball... It’s exhausting to watch and I wonder how much longer Booker will tolerate this...

Good assessment. It's almost asking too much to think Ayton can turn the team around although I still hope it helps.

Suns need more athleticism. Somehow they need to add a rim protector through trade and add another on a two-way contract. Suns can't stop the drives to the basket by the opposition. Once that happens opponents get good looks from 3 point range all night.

 

[1Sun]

- Really not sure about Cam. He can shoot. There is no doubt about that and I would expect his shot will only improve over time. He tries very hard on defense. But his mobility is awkward at best. I don’t see him ever being a reliable rebounder... I’m starting to wonder what his real value will be, other than as a straight catch & shoot guy?

- Jerome is very intriguing to me. Not the most athletic... but he’s got game. Can shoot. Good instincts. He’s young, but I am hopeful he will develop nicely...

This description of Cam is precisely the same description I used to see here about...Dragan Bender...only Cam is 3 inches shorter and 4 years older.

As for Ty Jerome, my issue is that he is physically unable to defend at the NBA level.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Guys the construct of this team is all James Jones. He acquired nothing but below the rim players (other than oubre I guess). The “power” players he’s acquired that get minutes have been saric, kaminsky, cam. Not a single one of those guys can guard a stank much less intimidate in the lane. And this was adding to a known non-threat in the lane, Ayton. Banged on the lack of athleticism in the preseason and unfortunately that’s come to fruition.

 

[1Sun]

Guys the construct of this team is all James Jones. He acquired nothing but below the rim players (other than oubre I guess). The “power” players he’s acquired that get minutes have been saric, kaminsky, cam. Not a single one of those guys can guard a stank much less intimidate in the lane. And this was adding to a known non-threat in the lane, Ayton. Banged on the lack of athleticism in the preseason and unfortunately that’s come to fruition.

Which is why I do not trust him to make a trade right now. I would have a lot more confidence in him if he were to recognize the obvious error in his approach this offseason, especially on draft night, and pledge to learn from it and correct it in the future...

 

[82CardsGrad]

This description of Cam is precisely the same description I used to see here about...Dragan Bender...only Cam is 3 inches shorter and 4 years older.

As for Ty Jerome, my issue is that he is physically unable to defend at the NBA level.

I don’t think Jerome will ever be an all NBA defender... but I saw some things last night that hinted at the chance for him be a solid defender. I think he could be more athletic than you are giving credit at the moment...
I’m worried about Cam though... just not sure his game is what this team needs most.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Good assessment. It's almost asking too much to think Ayton can turn the team around although I still hope it helps.

Suns need more athleticism. Somehow they need to add a rim protector through trade and add another on a two-way contract. Suns can't stop the drives to the basket by the opposition. Once that happens opponents get good looks from 3 point range all night.

it's so sad we drafted Ayton to cover ALL OF THE ABOVE, with the 1st pick in a loaded draft... and yet there's a lot of agreement that his addition to the team, likely won't alleviate the problems we face.

I mean, it should NOT be asking too much that the first pick in the draft, who's got the body of a greek god, be added to the team in year 2 and turn the team around.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don’t think Jerome will ever be an all NBA defender... but I saw some things last night that hinted at the chance for him be a solid defender. I think he could be more athletic than you are giving credit at the moment...
I’m worried about Cam though... just not sure his game is what this team needs most.

Cam can be a 6'9 version of Craig Hodges, or I guess today's version is poor man's Kyle Korver. A great 3 point gunner eventually. 20 minutes a night guy. When he's on, he's a big boon to the offense. When he's not, you park his ass on the bench.

 

[1Sun]

I don’t think Jerome will ever be an all NBA defender... but I saw some things last night that hinted at the chance for him be a solid defender. I think he could be more athletic than you are giving credit at the moment...
I’m worried about Cam though... just not sure his game is what this team needs most.

Jerome is smart, and he is willing...but at the NBA level, there is a certain physical floor you need to exceed to be able to hang defensively. Jerome just doesn't have it. Neither does Cam, Saric or Kaminsky.

In terms of what we needed most, Clarke or Washington was the obvious pick at 11. If what Jones wanted was a shooter, then Herro was the obvious pick.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This description of Cam is precisely the same description I used to see here about...Dragan Bender...only Cam is 3 inches shorter and 4 years older.

no. No one said Dragan Bender is a good 3 point shooter who could be a great 3 point shooter. What you used to hear about Bender here was all about his "basketball IQ" and how smart he is and that he can be a good defender at times. Literally, NOTHING like the discussion of Cam who everyone agrees is a good 3 point shooter now, and could be elite but is very worrisome in pretty much every other aspect.

 

[1Sun]

Cam can be a 6'9 version of Craig Hodges, or I guess today's version is poor man's Kyle Korver. A great 3 point gunner eventually. 20 minutes a night guy. When he's on, he's a big boon to the offense. When he's not, you park his ass on the bench.

If that's his ceiling, then that clearly was a waste of the #11 pick...especially when we still needed (and still do need) a starting power forward, and there remained two that were available.

 

[Cheesebeef]

If that's his ceiling, then that clearly was a waste of the #11 pick...especially when we still needed (and still do need) a starting power forward, and there remained two that were available.

hey look at that... an opinion I've never heard from you before!

and if he does end up as Kyle Korver, that's not a waste of the 11th pick. It's not the right pick we should have made (and a lot of us said that at the time, not just your highness), but it's not an absolute waste.

an absolute waste of a pick was Bender. That guy has no place whatsoever in the league.

 

[1Sun]

no. No one said Dragan Bender is a good 3 point shooter who could be a great 3 point shooter. What you used to hear about Bender here was all about his "basketball IQ" and how smart he is and that he can be a good defender at times. Literally, NOTHING like the discussion of Cam who everyone agrees is a good 3 point shooter now, and could be elite but is very worrisome in pretty much every other aspect.

Go back and check the early returns on Bender. Everyone here said he had a sweet shooting form, and it was only a matter of time before it started going in consistently.

 

[BC867]

Guys the construct of this team is all James Jones. He acquired nothing but below the rim players (other than oubre I guess). The “power” players he’s acquired that get minutes have been saric, kaminsky, cam. Not a single one of those guys can guard a stank much less intimidate in the lane. And this was adding to a known non-threat in the lane, Ayton. Banged on the lack of athleticism in the preseason and unfortunately that’s come to fruition.

We hoped that James Jones would somehow have the maturity, despite his lack of experience, to make magic.

And that he would have Sarver's trust as a loyal employee to do his job.

It is becoming obvious that James Jones is just another one of Sarver's unqualified yes-men who doesn't have
the resume to demand autonomy. Especially, as has been posted, with Sarver announcing that he is part of
their "triangle of communications". The GM wannabe, with the GM as nothing more than his assistant.

'Can't say I'm surprised. The Curse of Robert Sarver will be calling the shots as long as he is the Manager of the
Investors. With them owning a team that has moved into the billion dollar class (as all NBA teams), this could go
on for the next 20+ years.

So I probably won't be around to see a change. And, actually, just like Jerry, Sarver will be choosing the next
investors, so there will probably be no hope for gain even then.

The only hope, sad as it sounds, would be for Sarver to move the Suns, so the Valley of the Sun could start
fresh, with a brand new investment group, hopefully not run by an egomaniac small town banker.

With our team so weak on defense or a strong inside presence, we are watching it happen right before our eyes.

When more than a couple of ASFN posters say they can't bear to watch games any more, that is a danger sign.

And citing injuries or missed time are no excuse. If so many players hadn't been playing out of position, we
would be less at risk to an overwhelming amount of injuries. Booker was stretched too thin. Ayton, who
evidently is a loose cannon, does not fit the job he was drafted to to. And those are the two who the team
must be built around.