Sopranos

conraddobler

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Whoa.... I actually agree with Conrad.

:takesguntohead:

Man quick draw, I deleted that to repost and you already rang me up with a quote, that's fine, It's basically what I wanted to say.

I've read a few definitions of the term sociopath, same as psychopath and it just dosen't fit the guy, he exhibits guilt, and it makes him mad usually but he does feel guilt, like when He killed Big *****, he had several episodes where he was feeling bad about that even though he had to do it.

He also has lasting relationships, he feels for other people, he loves Carm although he's not faithful at all, I think he really cares.

I think the shows trying to intentionally lay out the character as a sociopath to probably redeem the guy in the final episode but we'll see, man I'm going to miss this show.
 

Bada0Bing

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I think the shows trying to intentionally lay out the character as a sociopath to probably redeem the guy in the final episode but we'll see, man I'm going to miss this show.

Me too, it's going to feel really strange watching the last one.

I don't think Paulie is playing both sides. Tony Sirico actually has it in his contract that Paulie won't be a rat. I'm not sure if that only applies to the FBI, but besides the phone calls that he made in jail a few seasons ago, he's always been extremely loyal to Tony.
 

jenna2891

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Me too, it's going to feel really strange watching the last one.

I don't think Paulie is playing both sides. Tony Sirico actually has it in his contract that Paulie won't be a rat. I'm not sure if that only applies to the FBI, but besides the phone calls that he made in jail a few seasons ago, he's always been extremely loyal to Tony.


paulie would never go rat, but i wouldn't be at all surprised if he went over to new york. at the very least, paulie being spared could be seen as ny's perception that he could be an asset to them. remember when paulie was in jail and he kept leaking info to johnny sac (the infamous ralph/ginny joke)? also, when paulie and tony were on the boat, why was paulie so nervous? if he wasn't totally loyal to tony, he wouldn't have been so worried about being killed.
 

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paulie would never go rat, but i wouldn't be at all surprised if he went over to new york. at the very least, paulie being spared could be seen as ny's perception that he could be an asset to them. remember when paulie was in jail and he kept leaking info to johnny sac (the infamous ralph/ginny joke)? also, when paulie and tony were on the boat, why was paulie so nervous? if he wasn't totally loyal to tony, he wouldn't have been so worried about being killed.

I totally see it differently. Paulie was nervous because he remembered Big Pu$$y on the boat. I don't think it had anything to do with motive--Paulie's not smart enough.

As for him being spared, it sounded to me like the plan by NY was to off the Top 3 guys. Why would they even entertain the idea that it's Paulie if he was a mole? Because they did say Paulie, but changed it to Bobby after another said, "Well, I think Bobby is the #3 over Paulie now". To me, that means one of two things: 1) The guy who said Bobby over Paulie is in cahoots with Paulie, but why would nobody else know about it, or 2) They think Paulie is simply a goon and not capable of being the #3 guy. I tend to go with the latter.
 

jenna2891

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I totally see it differently. Paulie was nervous because he remembered Big Pu$$y on the boat. I don't think it had anything to do with motive--Paulie's not smart enough.

As for him being spared, it sounded to me like the plan by NY was to off the Top 3 guys. Why would they even entertain the idea that it's Paulie if he was a mole? Because they did say Paulie, but changed it to Bobby after another said, "Well, I think Bobby is the #3 over Paulie now". To me, that means one of two things: 1) The guy who said Bobby over Paulie is in cahoots with Paulie, but why would nobody else know about it, or 2) They think Paulie is simply a goon and not capable of being the #3 guy. I tend to go with the latter.

i seem to remember some interaction between paulie and phil, something to the effect of paulie letting phil know that he wasn't happy with the way things in jersey were being run, that it wasn't like the old days? does anyone remember what i'm thinking of? i'm gonna try to track that down.
 

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Tony would not be considered a psychopath (sociopath is not normally used by psychologists). He shows characteristics, but if I had to guess... I'd say he's somewhat narcissistic and, but certainly anti-social, he suffers from bouts of depression, he see's himself as a victim and blames others for his problems. He uses intimidation to control others around him, while internally doubting his own self worth.

I'm not an expert, but I did spend a year working with a prison psychologist determining felon's mental disorders. Zenny can correct me if I'm wrong.
 

blindseyed

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Tony would not be considered a psychopath (sociopath is not normally used by psychologists). He shows characteristics, but if I had to guess... I'd say he's somewhat narcissistic and, but certainly anti-social, he suffers from bouts of depression, he see's himself as a victim and blames others for his problems. He uses intimidation to control others around him, while internally doubting his own self worth.

I'm not an expert, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Fixed.....:D
 

KloD

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Went back and looked though some of my medical books, though he does show symtoms of both Narcissistic Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder, he doesn't (at least what we see of him) show all signs. My bet would be that he would be diagnosed w/ either or both.
 

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Since I've been asked by two people... I've watched about six or eight episodes of the Sopranos early on, but I don't get HBO or those channels, and really don't watch much TV or DVDs unless I'm down with a cold or something. I'll lay out the parameters and you guys can take it from there.

Personality Disorders are not all-or-nothing. By definition it's a pervasive social and mental 'style' that shapes most of what the person does to some extent, and is somehow maladaptive (in the big social picture). People can be really really severely disordered, or just moderately but still enough to fit the definition.

People also can have strong traits or 'features' but be flexible or socially skilled and adaptable enough that it doesn't fit the diagnostic level. For ex, a great many corporate and political leaders are very narcissistic, but it's actually sort of adaptive and they have the ability to ratchet it back if necessary. Many research scientists and CPAs have obsessive-compulsive personality features, but not so much that it's a problem. Cops, commandos, and psychologists all score very high on sociopathic traits - for different reasons, but it is actually professionally adaptive and beneficial. btw, technically it's Antisocial Personality Disorder, because 'sociopath' now connotes extreme criminal behavior, but we still use 'sociopathy' to describe it.

So it's not accurate to say antisocial personality can only be the most extreme form. Sociopaths are not all completely without conscience, but they are more likely to rationalize it as 'self defense' behavior (He would have cheated me if I hadn't outsmarted him) or just disregard it as personally inconvenient and not a big deal. They are almost reflexively oppositional to standard authority and social norms.

They can't stand being bored, and impulsively act out or take risks to get a charge. The most severe cases -- psychopathic serial murderers -- only show activation of brain pleasure centers with that kind of extreme risk, and show almost no activation of social frontal lobe centers when asked to watch and evaluate criminal, even murderous, scenarios. Most sociopaths do show activation, but less than the average person.

Sociopaths also tend not feel anxiety as much as normals and they will tend to get mean and aggressive in response to circumstances where normal people would feel uncertainty or anxiety. Sociopaths (at least jailed ones) seem to learn cause-and-effect only from immediate, severe non-social consequences, where other people learn from approval/disapproval given socially.

They don't lack empathy -- the ability to really understand and feel another person's feelings and state of mind -- because empathy misused is precisely what makes them great cons and manipulators. They tend not to ever trust anyone at all, and they don't bond easily in terms of emotional intimacy -- they may or may not want intimacy, but almost all antisocial types feel deeply alienated and permanently set apart. In severe cases they turn other people into mere objects.

They may have some strong personal values -- which could be very idiosyncratic, but for ex, a child rapist who goes to prison is not going to survive, because even the hardest sociopaths can imagine their kid in those circumstances. So if they like a particular person for whatever reason, they could protect him.

So Tony Soprano? He's definitely got sociopathic qualities (doesn't matter if he had a lousy childhood -- behaviors are behaviors), and he's certainly narcissistic (he enjoys the attention of studying himself in therapy and expects to be the star patient -- the ONLY patient), but as I recall he was too anxious to be a real sociopathic personality disorder. Not everyone in therapy fits a diagnosis, you know. Sometimes they're just chronically unhappy or ineffective.
 

Bada0Bing

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I totally see it differently. Paulie was nervous because he remembered Big Pu$$y on the boat. I don't think it had anything to do with motive--Paulie's not smart enough.

As for him being spared, it sounded to me like the plan by NY was to off the Top 3 guys. Why would they even entertain the idea that it's Paulie if he was a mole? Because they did say Paulie, but changed it to Bobby after another said, "Well, I think Bobby is the #3 over Paulie now". To me, that means one of two things: 1) The guy who said Bobby over Paulie is in cahoots with Paulie, but why would nobody else know about it, or 2) They think Paulie is simply a goon and not capable of being the #3 guy. I tend to go with the latter.

Pretty much how I see it too.

i seem to remember some interaction between paulie and phil, something to the effect of paulie letting phil know that he wasn't happy with the way things in jersey were being run, that it wasn't like the old days? does anyone remember what i'm thinking of? i'm gonna try to track that down.

I don't remember this. I remember Pualie speaking to John like this, but not Phil.
 

KloD

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Since I've been asked by two people... I've watched about six or eight episodes of the Sopranos early on, but I don't get HBO or those channels, and really don't watch much TV or DVDs unless I'm down with a cold or something. I'll lay out the parameters and you guys can take it from there.

Personality Disorders are not all-or-nothing. By definition it's a pervasive social and mental 'style' that shapes most of what the person does to some extent, and is somehow maladaptive (in the big social picture). People can be really really severely disordered, or just moderately but still enough to fit the definition.

People also can have strong traits or 'features' but be flexible or socially skilled and adaptable enough that it doesn't fit the diagnostic level. For ex, a great many corporate and political leaders are very narcissistic, but it's actually sort of adaptive and they have the ability to ratchet it back if necessary. Many research scientists and CPAs have obsessive-compulsive personality features, but not so much that it's a problem. Cops, commandos, and psychologists all score very high on sociopathic traits - for different reasons, but it is actually professionally adaptive and beneficial. btw, technically it's Antisocial Personality Disorder, because 'sociopath' now connotes extreme criminal behavior, but we still use 'sociopathy' to describe it.

So it's not accurate to say antisocial personality can only be the most extreme form. Sociopaths are not all completely without conscience, but they are more likely to rationalize it as 'self defense' behavior (He would have cheated me if I hadn't outsmarted him) or just disregard it as personally inconvenient and not a big deal. They are almost reflexively oppositional to standard authority and social norms.

They can't stand being bored, and impulsively act out or take risks to get a charge. The most severe cases -- psychopathic serial murderers -- only show activation of brain pleasure centers with that kind of extreme risk, and show almost no activation of social frontal lobe centers when asked to watch and evaluate criminal, even murderous, scenarios. Most sociopaths do show activation, but less than the average person.

Sociopaths also tend not feel anxiety as much as normals and they will tend to get mean and aggressive in response to circumstances where normal people would feel uncertainty or anxiety. Sociopaths (at least jailed ones) seem to learn cause-and-effect only from immediate, severe non-social consequences, where other people learn from approval/disapproval given socially.

They don't lack empathy -- the ability to really understand and feel another person's feelings and state of mind -- because empathy misused is precisely what makes them great cons and manipulators. They tend not to ever trust anyone at all, and they don't bond easily in terms of emotional intimacy -- they may or may not want intimacy, but almost all antisocial types feel deeply alienated and permanently set apart. In severe cases they turn other people into mere objects.

They may have some strong personal values -- which could be very idiosyncratic, but for ex, a child rapist who goes to prison is not going to survive, because even the hardest sociopaths can imagine their kid in those circumstances. So if they like a particular person for whatever reason, they could protect him.

So Tony Soprano? He's definitely got sociopathic qualities (doesn't matter if he had a lousy childhood -- behaviors are behaviors), and he's certainly narcissistic (he enjoys the attention of studying himself in therapy and expects to be the star patient -- the ONLY patient), but as I recall he was too anxious to be a real sociopathic personality disorder. Not everyone in therapy fits a diagnosis, you know. Sometimes they're just chronically unhappy or ineffective.


Thanks Zenny! A few questions, but first... thanks for making me look bad by using sociopath instread of psychopath. Throughout my education and at the prison I was told psychologists use the term psychopath and soliologists use sociopath, that the original term was psychopath.

Anyway, just to clarify. Are you saying you don't see anti-social disorder in him? Or, as it's part of being a "sociopath" it's not necessary to separate it?

I'm still a little confused as to why (varying degree aside) he would be a sociopath? He doesn't have a lack of empathy or conscience, he seems to understand his actions as harming others and shows real empathy at times.

I realize you have not seen much of the show and it's difficult to determine based on the little you've seen. I trust your judgement here, I'm just looking for clartity.

Thanks again.
 

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Thanks Zenny! A few questions, but first... thanks for making me look bad by using sociopath instread of psychopath. Throughout my education and at the prison I was told psychologists use the term psychopath and soliologists use sociopath, that the original term was psychopath.

Anyway, just to clarify. Are you saying you don't see anti-social disorder in him? Or, as it's part of being a "sociopath" it's not necessary to separate it?

I'm still a little confused as to why (varying degree aside) he would be a sociopath? He doesn't have a lack of empathy or conscience, he seems to understand his actions as harming others and shows real empathy at times.

I realize you have not seen much of the show and it's difficult to determine based on the little you've seen. I trust your judgement here, I'm just looking for clartity.

Thanks again.


Psychopath is not a psychiatric diagnostic term. Sociopathic Personality used to be, but its been Antisocial Personality for a couple decades. It's easier to say sociopathy than antisociallicky though, so it lingers in informal usage. Psychopath is more a forensic term, and informally clinicians will only use it for the most severe, violent types of people (I saw one last week... talk about your bad seed -- phew!! and they really stand out). It's like we don't have the word 'insane' as a technical psych term, it's purely a legal concept, but we all use it informally.

I don't know if Tony fits the diagnostic criteria for AntiSocial Personality Disorder, which is different than the clinical description I gave. Diagnostic criteria are notoriously inadequate -- both too general, and too narrow. But Klo, you are still thinking all or nothing. As I said, the antisocial person can and often does have empathy, and they can act on it if it suits them, or may have pockets of personal value -- honor among thieves, or frequently kids under 5 or 6 are not to be messed with, or you don't kill the other gang's wives and kids, or 'I assassinate people but I'd never sell drugs'. Even the bad seed I saw had one or two tiny islands of personal anxiety.

I suspect Tony is diagnosable -- over age 18, must have had a youthful history of conduct disorder symptoms. Then at least three of the following:
fails to conform to social norms of lawful behavior;
deceitful or manipulative to gain personal advantage or benefit;
impulsive behavior and disregard for future consequences;
irritable and aggressive;
reckless disregard for safety of self/others;
irresponsible such as repeated failure to sustain job behaviors or to honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, such as being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt or mistreated others.

Doesn't mean he ONLY acts in those ways every time, but there must be a long-standing, across different situations, pretty consistent pattern of whatever the three or more problem areas are. (So if it ONLY happens at work, it's not a Personality Disorder. It's a bad attitude.)
 

conraddobler

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Psychopath is not a psychiatric diagnostic term. Sociopathic Personality used to be, but its been Antisocial Personality for a couple decades. It's easier to say sociopathy than antisociallicky though, so it lingers in informal usage. Psychopath is more a forensic term, and informally clinicians will only use it for the most severe, violent types of people (I saw one last week... talk about your bad seed -- phew!! and they really stand out). It's like we don't have the word 'insane' as a technical psych term, it's purely a legal concept, but we all use it informally.

I don't know if Tony fits the diagnostic criteria for AntiSocial Personality Disorder, which is different than the clinical description I gave. Diagnostic criteria are notoriously inadequate -- both too general, and too narrow. But Klo, you are still thinking all or nothing. As I said, the antisocial person can and often does have empathy, and they can act on it if it suits them, or may have pockets of personal value -- honor among thieves, or frequently kids under 5 or 6 are not to be messed with, or you don't kill the other gang's wives and kids, or 'I assassinate people but I'd never sell drugs'. Even the bad seed I saw had one or two tiny islands of personal anxiety.

I suspect Tony is diagnosable -- over age 18, must have had a youthful history of conduct disorder symptoms. Then at least three of the following:
fails to conform to social norms of lawful behavior;
deceitful or manipulative to gain personal advantage or benefit;
impulsive behavior and disregard for future consequences;
irritable and aggressive;
reckless disregard for safety of self/others;
irresponsible such as repeated failure to sustain job behaviors or to honor financial obligations;
lack of remorse, such as being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt or mistreated others.

Doesn't mean he ONLY acts in those ways every time, but there must be a long-standing, across different situations, pretty consistent pattern of whatever the three or more problem areas are. (So if it ONLY happens at work, it's not a Personality Disorder. It's a bad attitude.)


Tony's pretty complicated and you've got to watch more episodes, I'd say you'd have to hit the 80% mark to really get a feel for the guy.

I'm not sure what he is but this sociopath or psychopath thing he's not IMO but it's not a professional one.

Early on he was seeking help because anxiety was making him pass out, he'd get in a situation that had stress and he'd have a panic attack and black out.

He impulsively killed a guy for burning down a barn with a horse in it that he liked even though the guy was his biggest earner and the guy did it to make money.

He's definitely not a nice man and he's got something but that's what makes the show fun, he's not that easy to define IMO.

In the last episode last week his therapist abandoned him because she thought he was a sociopath and her peers had convinced her that he was simply using the talk therapy to learn how to be a better criminal, which I don't believe was the case, I don't recall a lot of instances where they made reference to his therapy as a means to him being better at his job, although it seems that some of the experiences he had made him more likely to try and compromise in his job instead of acting implusively which means she was actually helping him be a better criminal so there are elements of that but it wasn't presented in that way IMO.

More like he was simply a more calm human being that wanted to avoid being a jerk or greedy and wanted to simply live and let live, but again his job is being a mob boss so of course it's going to help him in some respects be a better mob boss although he could have become a more calculating and cold boss IMO if she was correct and he isn't IMO again.

The writers have intentionally IMO thrown this out there to get everyone debating this. One time he is, one time he's not, I think they're simply trying to write a complicated character that is essentially what you said, he's not all or nothing anything, he has tendencies but IMO again he's simply a reasonably good guy if your speaking of Mob bosses, he's simply got a tough draw in terms of his moral challenges.

I really loved this show, it's something like reality tv without being reality tv, very good writing, excellent cast, it had it's dud moments but as tv shows go it's a classic.

Thanks very much! for weighing in on this it's fun hearing a real professional take a look at the guy but again buy the DVDs and watch more he evolves all through the years, once you understand he's a Mob boss and that he's pretty pinned in as to what he can do in any given situation it makes his choices make more sense, it's pretty good stuff...
 
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AZZenny

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If what he's looking for is to get control of the anxiety so he can do what he does more easily, then he is using therapy to be a better mob boss. I don't hear him looking for help to stop impulsively killing people. Almost by definition anyone who kills others for personal benefit is an Antisocial Personality.

Look, my bad seed pushes people down stairs if they get in the way, runs them off the road, lies, steals, and has no concept of people or animals as other than useful objects or extensions of him/her self -- but has bouts of crippling panic and anxiety over specific family issues and has been in and out of treatment for years.

You guys have a very narrow concept of antisocial personalities. They can be funny, charming, generous, curious, articulate, intelligent -- but unless you're immediate kin (and even then maybe) you'd be an idiot to expect long-term loyalty or to trust them with your life savings.
 

conraddobler

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If what he's looking for is to get control of the anxiety so he can do what he does more easily, then he is using therapy to be a better mob boss. I don't hear him looking for help to stop impulsively killing people. Almost by definition anyone who kills others for personal benefit is an Antisocial Personality.

Look, my bad seed pushes people down stairs if they get in the way, runs them off the road, lies, steals, and has no concept of people or animals as other than useful objects or extensions of him/her self -- but has bouts of crippling panic and anxiety over specific family issues and has been in and out of treatment for years.

You guys have a very narrow concept of antisocial personalities. They can be funny, charming, generous, curious, articulate, intelligent -- but unless you're immediate kin (and even then maybe) you'd be an idiot to expect long-term loyalty or to trust them with your life savings.

Tony does that, he'll impulsively do things to people but like the time the cop gave him a ticket, Tony uses his connections to get the guy fired, which all fits what you said but later he meets the guy at a nursery while buying stuff and the guy is working there so he feels guilty and trys to give the guy some money.

The guy tells him to stick it and that makes him mad but you could tell he felt sorry for what he did.

Would your person feel sorry for anything they did to a stranger or even acknowledge him or just leave?

I seem to remember he didn't get startled by the guy, he saw him and could have avoided him but went over to him to apologize.
 
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For some reason I am left empty after that. Was there something I missed? What was with the guy going to the john? Weird.
 

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Well that was um different

- They're setting up the ending to be a movie (the non-ending was pretty lame) but I heard a rumor about that coming for a while
- Paulie was in ABSOLUTELY classic form
- AJ is just beyond bizarre
- "We're going to win this thing" lol
- The amount of cuts made the story a little hard to follow at times
 

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Well that was um different

In regards to your first point, I got something completely different than you. I saw it as Tony being killed. He didn't see it coming. The hitman was most likely the guy that went to the bathroom. Notice how the hall to the bathroom is slightly behind him. When Meadow finally arrives...BANG! Silence...darkness. He didn't hear it...just like what was referenced in the last episode when he flashes back to the scene with Bobby.
 
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Evil Ash

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In regards to your first point, I got something completely different than you. I saw it as Tony being killed. He didn't see it coming. The hitman was most likely the guy that went to the bathroom. Notice how the hall to the bathroom is slightly behind him. When Meadow finally arrives...BANG! Silence...darkness. He didn't hear it...just like what was referenced in the last episode when he flashes back to the scene with Bobby.

If that were the ending then he did a horrible job of explaining it to the audience. At least have the gun shot go off if you were to say that he was getting whacked.

Besides who was going to whack him? Phil's dead and the rest of the NY seemed to be of the belief that he had gone too far.

I just think it was a non-ending with two of the characters there made you think he was either a) getting busted by the feds or going to whack him. However as far as we know nothing actually happenedand that makes it a non-ending.

I still say they're setting it up for a movie and with the following that this show had, I wouldn't blame David Chase or HBO for doing so
 
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If that were the ending then he did a horrible job of explaining it to the audience. At least have the gun shot go off if you were to say that he was getting whacked.

Besides who was going to whack him? Phil's dead and the rest of the NY seemed to be of the belief that he had gone too far.

I just think it was a non-ending with two of the characters there made you think he was either a) getting busted by the feds or going to whack him. However as far as we know nothing actually happenedand that makes it a non-ending.

I still say they're setting it up for a movie and with the following that this show had, I wouldn't blame David Chase or HBO for doing so

I think the thing that convinced me that he was killed is the 5-10 second blackness and silence that was there before the credits appeared. I think it was put there as a way of Chase telling us there is significance to that nothingness and that it is very important.

I think you do make a good point about those characters possibly being the feds. I'm not sure if you're talking about the guys already seated or the two younger guys that showed up towards the last moment. That's what makes that scene so great. I'm sure your mind was running all over the place with all the people and activity going on.
 

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