Suns @ Bucks 1-29-14

[Errntknght]

slin,

Before the season I predicted that Green would be the surprise and flourish in an open offense rather than the slow-it down style of the Pacers.

I don't recall you predicting that at all. I didn't predict it but I did say a couple of times that he might well flourish in the fastbreak style we were planning to use, given his athleticism. (I'm almost certain to remember you saying anything that I agree with since its such an uncommon event. By the way, I'll never forget you predicting that Dragic-Bledsoe pairing was certain to fail. I told you at the time I was going to enjoy rubbing it in when they proved you wrong - so I'm just keeping my promise!)

 

[slinslin]

slin,

I don't recall you predicting that at all. I didn't predict it but I did say a couple of times that he might well flourish in the fastbreak style we were planning to use, given his athleticism. (I'm almost certain to remember you saying anything that I agree with since its such an uncommon event. By the way, I'll never forget you predicting that Dragic-Bledsoe pairing was certain to fail. I told you at the time I was going to enjoy rubbing it in when they proved you wrong - so I'm just keeping my promise!)

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2886687&postcount=10

Who will lead the Suns in scoring?

Gerald Green is a dark horse if he starts at the 3.

I think Green will do reasonably well for us if we can play high tempo basketball.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2862733&postcount=88

Or maybe they saw Plumlee being good in summer league last year and this year...

Saw that Plumlee was stuck behind Hibbert, West, Hansborough and Mahinmi last season..

Know that we will deal Gortat eventually and need another center..

See that Plumlee can really run the floor and is pretty much the athletic type of center that would fit our team.

 

[Sci Fi]

slin,

I don't recall you predicting that at all. I didn't predict it but I did say a couple of times that he might well flourish in the fastbreak style we were planning to use, given his athleticism. (I'm almost certain to remember you saying anything that I agree with since its such an uncommon event. By the way, I'll never forget you predicting that Dragic-Bledsoe pairing was certain to fail. I told you at the time I was going to enjoy rubbing it in when they proved you wrong - so I'm just keeping my promise!)

Have to chuckle about the comment you'll never forget the Dragic-Bledose pairing will fail because I'm pretty sure you forgot who said it. It wasn't Slin.

 

[elindholm]

I said that the Dragic-Bledsoe pairing would fail if they were both used as starters. So far the jury is still out. They've played a grand total of less than 400 minutes on the floor together, and the results have been hit-and-miss (http://www.82games.com/1314/1314PHO2.HTM). The team got off to a hot start when Dragic was out and Bledsoe ran the show, and now they've stabilized with Bledsoe out and Dragic running the show. We're a long way from knowing whether they can co-exist effectively.

 

[Sci Fi]

Your words were something to the effect that you guaranteed the pairing would fail in 20 games. Guaranteed. If you can't see that they can play together effectively, that's your problem. It's possible it was the best backcourt in the NBA. Now maybe it doesn't work quite that well in the long run (and that's a big reason why I'd like to see Bledsoe back so that the FO has more data to decide how to proceed) but they can defend AND score. It works. It's just a question of how well.

 

[elindholm]

Your words were something to the effect that you guaranteed the pairing would fail in 20 games.

How many games have they played together so far?

If you can't see that they can play together effectively, that's your problem. It's possible it was the best backcourt in the NBA.

It's also possible that I will suddenly sprout wings and fly to the moon.

If you look at 82games.com, one thing that jumps out is that when Bledsoe and Dragic have been on the floor together, Tucker has always been with them. Among the 20 most used five-man units this season, there isn't a single counter-example. Why do you suppose that is? It sure looks as though Hornacek is particularly concerned about perimeter defense when playing those two together, and so makes sure that he uses them only with Tucker.

Each unit's effective FG% for and against are also revealing. The Suns' most often-used lineup, Dragic-Green-Tucker-Frye-Plumlee, has .503 for and .492 against, a small edge. #2 is Bledsoe-Dragic-Tucker-Frye-Plumlee, and that's .466 for and .418 against, a larger edge. So they have a harder time scoring, but make up for it defensively. Great, right? Not so fast: The next most common Bledsoe-Dragic lineup, with Tucker-MkMorris-Plumlee, is only .338 for (!!!) and .415 against. They still do a good job defensively, but can't throw it in the ocean.

Lineups with both Dragic and Bledsoe have been intermittently effective, but Hornacek is already learning the limitations of their pairing. Eventually you will too.

 

[Sci Fi]

Elindholm,

You're a piece of work. Make a silly prediction and then try to hide it seeing if you can throw enough data at it to confuse people. Hornacek isn't seeing anything out there. The team was absolutely crushing immediately prior to the LAC game where Bledsoe was injured.

Just admit you were wrong. What are you, the Fonz?

 

[Superbone]

I don't need any stats to know that the Bledsoe/Dragic pairing works and works well.

 

[Catlover]

I don't need any stats to know that the Bledsoe/Dragic pairing works and works well.

I wasn't sure it would work but having viewed them in operation I wonder how anyone can watch them and still doubt the viability of the pairing. We may not be better each moment the two of them are on the court together but they don't hand out wins based on 3,4 or even 5 man unit stats. What happens in the third minute of the game can have impact on the 44th minute of the game and advanced stats can't track and quantify everything.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2886687&postcount=10

Who will lead the Suns in scoring?




http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2862733&postcount=88

You must have just typed it and not voted. I was the only person who voted for Green.

Gerald Green 1 3.85%

I just didn't say anything out of fear of redicule.

 

[elindholm]

You're a piece of work. Make a silly prediction and then try to hide it seeing if you can throw enough data at it to confuse people.

I said that the Bledsoe/Dragic starting backcourt wouldn't last 20 games. So far it hasn't. Get back to me later.

 

[SirStefan32]

I said that the Bledsoe/Dragic starting backcourt wouldn't last 20 games. So far it hasn't. Get back to me later.

I am not quite there yet, but I am much closer to your position than the position of the majority of this board. I was certain that Goran was as good as gone next summer (if not by trade deadline). With Bledsoe's injury (second issue on the same knee), and Goran's emergence while Bledsoe is out, I am not so sure anymore.

Here is how I see Dragic and Bledsoe back court:
1. It does work, for the time being. It has some real benefits (Bledsoe is an outstanding defender, and Dragic is much better defending 2s than 1s, though he is not by any means a terrible defender; you always have a starting-level PG on the floor, etc).
2. While Bledsoe/ Dragic back court works right now, I think the more of it we see (and the more of it other teams see), it was start getting exposed.
3. Dragic paired with a talented shooting guard is a better combination than Bledsoe and Dragic. Bledsoe and another talented shooting guard is a better combination than Bledsoe and Dragic. Keeping them together where neither one of them can really shine is doing both of them a huge disservice.

If I were the Suns, I would keep Dragic, and spend the Bledsoe money on an actual shooting guard.

 

[sunsfan88]

Bledsoe/Dragic was the best backcourt in the NBA. Defense, offense, rebounding it had everything.

 

[sunsfan88]

I am not quite there yet, but I am much closer to your position than the position of the majority of this board. I was certain that Goran was as good as gone next summer (if not by trade deadline). With Bledsoe's injury (second issue on the same knee), and Goran's emergence while Bledsoe is out, I am not so sure anymore.

Here is how I see Dragic and Bledsoe back court:
1. It does work, for the time being. It has some real benefits (Bledsoe is an outstanding defender, and Dragic is much better defending 2s than 1s, though he is not by any means a terrible defender; you always have a starting-level PG on the floor, etc).
2. While Bledsoe/ Dragic back court works right now, I think the more of it we see (and the more of it other teams see), it was start getting exposed.
3. Dragic paired with a talented shooting guard is a better combination than Bledsoe and Dragic. Bledsoe and another talented shooting guard is a better combination than Bledsoe and Dragic. Keeping them together where neither one of them can really shine is doing both of them a huge disservice.

If I were the Suns, I would keep Dragic, and spend the Bledsoe money on an actual shooting guard.

You don't understand, Dragic is capable of playing SG. He can score off the ball and relieve some ball handling duties for Bledsoe.

Thing about them is that they are both capable of playmaking and scoring on the fly and at will. If you trap Dragic in the pick and roll then he throws it to Bledsoe who uses his quickness and gets to the rim for the and-1 while the defense is still rotating.

Not to mention that Dragic and Bledsoe are both capable of starting the fast break which is a huge benefit.

Their also strong defensively. Dragic sucks at guarding the opposing teams PGs but Bledsoe's strength is just that. Bledsoe may be too small to guard SGs but Dragic is among the best defenders at guarding the 2.

I bet if you asked Dragic, "If you can play alongside any guard in the NBA right now, who would it be?" the answer wouldn't be Harden or anyone else, it would be Bledsoe. They compliment each other extremely well and take off so much pressure off each other.

It's almost like the Parker-Ginobili backcourts back when they were in their primes.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Bledsoe/Dragic was the best backcourt in the NBA. Defense, offense, rebounding it had everything.

I'm on the Eric/SirStefan side of the fence. My caveat is my memory is poor, but from what I remember the reason the Bledsoe/Dragic pairing has worked so well has more to do with the fact that there was an above average point guard on the floor at ALL times, not that the pair together were unstoppable on the floor.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Not to mention that Dragic and Bledsoe are both capable of starting the fast break which is a huge benefit.

Good point actually, I do feel like the fastbreak points per game have dipped in Bledsoe's absence but that's purely anecdotal. I haven't looked it up.

 

[elindholm]

If I were the Suns, I would keep Dragic, and spend the Bledsoe money on an actual shooting guard.

Or a real power forward.

 

[Errntknght]

Have to chuckle about the comment you'll never forget the Dragic-Bledose pairing will fail because I'm pretty sure you forgot who said it. It wasn't Slin.

I didn't forget, Slin beat Elindholm to the punch. His comment was succinct:

Dragic and Bledsoe playing together - fail!

Eric chimed in later after I disagreed with Slin... I've brought this up a couple of times and Slin has never denied it.

 

[SirStefan32]

Or a real power forward.

Absolutely! SG or a real PF. I was using SG as an example since my scenario was centering around breaking up the current guard rotation, but PF is also a giant hole the Suns need to deal with soon.

 

[elindholm]

Absolutely! SG or a real PF. I was using SG as an example since my scenario was centering around breaking up the current guard rotation, but PF is also a giant hole the Suns need to deal with soon.

Right, I think that Green, flawed though he is, is closer to what the Suns need at SG than either Frye or MkMorris is to what the Suns need at PF. But it could be argued either way.

 

[AfroSuns]

2. While Bledsoe/ Dragic back court works right now, I think the more of it we see (and the more of it other teams see), it was start getting exposed.
.

Is there a combination in the league that is immune to this?

What we know is, it is working now. let the other team game-plan a way to disrupt it and i am sure the Suns coaching staff will counter that.

 

[SirStefan32]

Right, I think that Green, flawed though he is, is closer to what the Suns need at SG than either Frye or MkMorris is to what the Suns need at PF. But it could be argued either way.

I was not a Green fan, but I have to tell you that at one point, something clicked for Green, and his shot selection improved dramatically. He still does some really stupid things and takes some bad shots once in a while, but he is starting to drive to the hoop, post up from time to time, and take some mid-range shots every now and then. His defense is really not bad, either.

On the PF side of things, I think Frye and Morris have really improved, and at this point, I think Markief is a legitimate backup PF, but I think Green is much closer to being a legitimate starter at SG than Morris is at PF.

 

[SirStefan32]

Is there a combination in the league that is immune to this?

What we know is, it is working now. let the other team game-plan a way to disrupt it and i am sure the Suns coaching staff will counter that.

Of course no new combo is immune to that. My point is simply that Bledsoe and Dragic back court looked better than it really is, because it took some teams by surprise and it will take a while for coaches to figure out how to counter it. Nets, for example, figured out that you go with two tall guards and post up/ overpower Bledsoe and Dragic. That's just one example- I am sure there are other ways to exploit them.

Don't get me wrong- I like Bledsoe, and I like Dragic, but I am just being objective- we've barely seen them play together, and it is a very unusual combo, so it will confuse teams for a while, but they will figure it out.

Bledsoe is an extremely undersized shooting guard who is not really a good shooter, and Dragic is a point guard- not a shooting guard.
While Bledsoe/ Dragic combo is a nice gimmick, I think that either one of them would be more effective with a REAL shooting guard.

Dragic needs to play point to be most effective, and Bledsoe needs the ball in his hands to be effective. While it may work, other combos would work better.

 

[Mainstreet]

Of course no new combo is immune to that. My point is simply that Bledsoe and Dragic back court looked better than it really is, because it took some teams by surprise and it will take a while for coaches to figure out how to counter it. Nets, for example, figured out that you go with two tall guards and post up/ overpower Bledsoe and Dragic. That's just one example- I am sure there are other ways to exploit them.

Don't get me wrong- I like Bledsoe, and I like Dragic, but I am just being objective- we've barely seen them play together, and it is a very unusual combo, so it will confuse teams for a while, but they will figure it out.

Bledsoe is an extremely undersized shooting guard who is not really a good shooter, and Dragic is a point guard- not a shooting guard.
While Bledsoe/ Dragic combo is a nice gimmick, I think that either one of them would be more effective with a REAL shooting guard.

Dragic needs to play point to be most effective, and Bledsoe needs the ball in his hands to be effective. While it may work, other combos would work better.

What makes Dragic, Bledsoe and Barbosa so effective is when two of them are on the court at the same time, all can penetrate to make defenses collapse. They are then able to drive to the basket to take the shot or kick out to the open shooter including the other PG. Teams are pressed on how to defend this. It's not like they can just put two big shooting guards on the court who can also play PG to defend them.

Although it is not necessary to play two PGs all the time (like when Gerald Green plays SG) but it creates havoc for opposing defenses when they do. The Suns can give opposing teams different looks. Also the attack is relentless. It's too far back for me to remember clearly, but this is perhaps what made Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars so effective.

 

[BC867]

Right, I think that Green, flawed though he is, is closer to what the Suns need at SG than either Frye or MkMorris is to what the Suns need at PF. But it could be argued either way.

It is interesting that you and I are parallel in our thoughts. You don't accept Markieff or Frye as our Power Forwards and I don't accept them as our 4th quarter Centers when Jeff keeps Plumlee and Len on the bench.

The Suns would probably be leading the Division in 3-on-3 . . . as long as the 3 were Wings and Point Guards.

Jeff deserves a world of credit for keeping the Suns afloat with this dysfunctional roster. But you can't help but think that they're on borrowed time.

But so far, even with injuries, it has been fun.