Suns @ Clippers Tuesday game thread 12-17-19

[CRC83]

Weren’t you the dude who was tossing out a potential trade of Ayton? I’m not sure which is more ridiculous... Claiming Ayton’s trajectory is higher than Anthony Davis, or, after just a year and 2 games, giving up on the 21 year-old and trading him! [emoji15]

I like Ayton and would love if he gets to that level. But yes, I would trade Ayton for KAT (who is only 24). I will take a known commodity who averages 27, 12, 4 on 42% 3pt shooting and gets to the line over potential. And I think most GMs in the league would do the same. Just my opinion.

 

[CRC83]

Except, as has been posted, Baynes's body cannot withstand starter's minutes.

True. I am just saying I like the lineup for part of the game. Not suggesting that as the starting lineup.

 

[BC867]

Exactly. As much as it would be great if he was the unstoppable force in the paint he should be. I’d settle for him even just trying it a few times a game. He’s got a feathery jumpshot. That should be his occasional, not primary (much less almost only), weapon.

Somebody please answer what I previously posted.

Ayton came to us as a Power Forward and played offense on the perimeter in his first season.

Pick up a role playing Center to accomplish what just about everybody is calling for from Ayton,
use Ayton to his best advantage as a Twin Tower at PF and, if we need to keep Saric, bring him
off the bench at PF to backup Ayton.

If Baynes were younger, we could slot him at Center, but he is not younger. And he draws too
many fouls. If he is healthy, he is a perfect backup.

Following all of these posts saying that Ayton is not a power player, what are your opinions
about the best position for him to play?

 

[82CardsGrad]

I like Ayton and would love if he gets to that level. But yes, I would trade Ayton for KAT (who is only 24). I will take a known commodity who averages 27, 12, 4 on 42% 3pt shooting and gets to the line over potential. And I think most GMs in the league would do the same. Just my opinion.

It’s a ridiculous discussion for so many reasons... not least of which is there would never be a straight up Ayton for KAT trade. At least not anytime in the next 12-24 months. It would have to be Ayton and who knows what else... and that ain’t gonna happen.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm not a betting person but if I were, I think Ayton's 2nd year stats will exceed Anthony Davis' 2nd year stats.

Ayton's first year stats were already better.

Remember when Davis was with the Pelicans and he couldn't carry that team?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

3 pt shooting and rebounds stand out to me too. Shot more threes in our win at a better percentage (29% vs 39%). Booker and Cam being out hurt us there. We also out-rebounded them in our win, and saw the opposite happen last night. Offensive rebounding specifically was better in our win.

Hopefully Ayton can help there going forward. I also like the idea of a lineup of Rubio, Booker, Cam, Baynes, Ayton. Get it down low to Ayton and if he gets doubled kick it out to Booker, Cam or Baynes for a 3 (all shooting better than 38%).

The only issue with that plan is how do you get it down low to Ayton when he won’t set up or establish position down low?

 

[CRC83]

It’s a ridiculous discussion for so many reasons... not least of which is there would never be a straight up Ayton for KAT trade. At least not anytime in the next 12-24 months. It would have to be Ayton and who knows what else... and that ain’t gonna happen.

I understand it’s not likely to happen, especially in the next 12 months. I guess you could include Tyler Johnson or some filler to get salaries to work.

My point is that I would take KAT over Ayton if I had to pick one for the next 10 years. I’m not sure why that qualifies as ridiculous discussion, or some outrageous take. I think most people around the NBA wold pick KAT over Ayton going forward.

I’m a homer too. I am biased towards the suns. But if you try to look at Ayton vs KAT without any bias, I don’t know how anyone thinks that it is more likely that Ayton ends up better than KAT based on what we have seen so far. I hope he ends up being the better player, but what reason do we have to expect it?

 

[CRC83]

I'm not a betting person but if I were, I think Ayton's 2nd year stats will exceed Anthony Davis' 2nd year stats.

Ayton's first year stats were already better.

Remember when Davis was with the Pelicans and he couldn't carry that team?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html

Davis’s lack of success with the pelicans is a fair point. Some of it may have been due to lack of talent around him. He did make it to the playoffs twice.

 

[devilalum]

The only issue with that plan is how do you get it down low to Ayton when he won’t set up or establish position down low?

Ayton is just getting started. He doesn’t do anything wrong that can’t be corrected. Too bad his development was set back a third of a season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hoop Head]

Somebody please answer what I previously posted.

Ayton came to us as a Power Forward and played offense on the perimeter in his first season.

Pick up a role playing Center to accomplish what just about everybody is calling for from Ayton,
use Ayton to his best advantage as a Twin Tower at PF and, if we need to keep Saric, bring him
off the bench at PF to backup Ayton.

If Baynes were younger, we could slot him at Center, but he is not younger. And he draws too
many fouls. If he is healthy, he is a perfect backup.

Following all of these posts saying that Ayton is not a power player, what are your opinions
about the best position for him to play?

This has been answered time and again. Just because he's not a physical Center does not mean he should be moved to PF. Finesse Centers have a spot in the league. There is a lot of talk about KAT here and he's not a physical Center either. He's not as soft as Ayton is but it's also taken him a couple of years to get to where he is today. He's still a Center though.

I don't understand your obsession with claiming Ayton has been playing PF because he hasn't and he didn't. He wasn't a PF for the Suns at any point last year and he played in a lineup that started 2 Centers at UofA but they didn't share the court the whole game. Ayton played as a Center then also, just with another Center on the floor with him sometimes. At least half of Ayton's minutes were without Ristic and he was the lone Center out there.

Ayton wouldn't be better as a PF either. If you think he's been playing PF then he's been failing miserably at it because no one else sees him as a PF. He'd have the same issues as far as not being aggressive enough offensively and not being able to help in the paint on defense. Don't you see all the talk of Ayton's shortcomings now? Those wouldn't be solved by labeling him a different position.

You're obsessed with adding size. I don't think it's even about you wanting Ayton to be a PF so much as you want 2 Centers on the floor at all times. That style of basketball doesn't work in the NBA right now.

 

[Dr. Jones]

my fear is he's the Suns version of Matt Leinart. The Center we've always been dreaming of... who's just isn't into the game enough to make a major impact.



couldn't agree more. This isn't a guy who was out with an injury. The expectations people are setting here are so low. He was the FIRST pick in a LOADED draft.

To piggy back on your Leinart comp.......

Imagine if Ayton is the Trubisky of that draft. It's possible at this point.

 

[82CardsGrad]

I understand it’s not likely to happen, especially in the next 12 months. I guess you could include Tyler Johnson or some filler to get salaries to work.

My point is that I would take KAT over Ayton if I had to pick one for the next 10 years. I’m not sure why that qualifies as ridiculous discussion, or some outrageous take. I think most people around the NBA wold pick KAT over Ayton going forward.

I’m a homer too. I am biased towards the suns. But if you try to look at Ayton vs KAT without any bias, I don’t know how anyone thinks that it is more likely that Ayton ends up better than KAT based on what we have seen so far. I hope he ends up being the better player, but what reason do we have to expect it?

I think it’s too early to make that call... my opinion.
I feel more comfortable making that comparison after this season.

 

[leclerc]

we get it you don’t like him. It’s ok. But to say his rookie year wasn’t good especially considering how bad that team was is just plain wrong.

it’s ok to not like a player

... but please don't go all 1sun slin broken record on us. Stay out of the mad house.

 

[CRC83]

I think it’s too early to make that call... my opinion.
I feel more comfortable making that comparison after this season.

Totally fair. And I can understand that viewpoint.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm not a betting person but if I were, I think Ayton's 2nd year stats will exceed Anthony Davis' 2nd year stats.

Ayton's first year stats were already better.

Remember when Davis was with the Pelicans and he couldn't carry that team?


https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/aytonde01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html

I can respect the comp offensively, but this eliminates AD's most transcendent trait. His other-worldly defense.

I would be so much happier if Ayton knew how to play off-ball defense even 25% as good as AD does.

 

[SunnyBaller]

Dude plays three quarters and has the best stat line on the team, sun's fans then proceed to $h** all over him, I don't know if I've ever seen a player get this much hate or criticism from a fan base when he's the second best player on the team in his second year. It's fine to point out his flaws and areas he needs to improve but damn guys some people act like he's the reason they lost last night when in reality he was one of only two players who did anything.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Dude plays three quarters and has the best stat line on the team, sun's fans then proceed to $h** all over him, I don't know if I've ever seen a player get this much hate or criticism from a fan base when he's the second best player on the team in his second year. It's fine to point out his flaws and areas he needs to improve but damn guys some people act like he's the reason they lost last night when in reality he was one of only two players who did anything.

One of those things was allow a layup and dunk line on D. What were the other things?

 

[Phrazbit]

Ayton and Booker are somewhat alike. Big stat stuffers but make no real impact on the game that leads to WINS

Ayton has some work to do to shed these claims but I don't know how anyone can watch us this last week and think Booker doesn't impact winning. Ridiculous.

 

[SunnyBaller]

One of those things was allow a layup and dunk line on D. What were the other things?

Well there was getting offensive boards, good passing and one of the biggest things in the NBA which is actually scoring. Offensively he had an efficient game , defensively wasn't great. His defense wasn't the reason they lost. He gave up some shots he could have probably altered but that is on a very long list of reasons they lost, such as letting Lou Williams put on a shooting clinic in the third or the bench failing to score until garbage time in the fourth

 

[CRC83]

Dude plays three quarters and has the best stat line on the team, sun's fans then proceed to $h** all over him, I don't know if I've ever seen a player get this much hate or criticism from a fan base when he's the second best player on the team in his second year. It's fine to point out his flaws and areas he needs to improve but damn guys some people act like he's the reason they lost last night when in reality he was one of only two players who did anything.

I think a lot of the criticism will die down if he plays well and we start winning. We played pretty well in his absence(w/ a tough schedule) and, with him back in the lineup, you would think we can be a .500 or better team (assuming Booker is healthy).

 

[Dante]

It's pretty clear that Ayton needs more games to get back to NBA speed so I look forward to seeing how he looks once that happens. It's completely his fault that he needs time to do so but with only 2 games under his belt so far this season, I'll gladly give the kid a chance to show that he has improved from his rookie season.

 

[TJ]

To piggy back on your Leinart comp.......

Imagine if Ayton is the Trubisky of that draft. It's possible at this point.

No. No it's not.

 

[Raindog]

Not sure why everyone is so up in arms. The Suns have played literally ONE game this season at full strength with the full complement of their roster, and they are still only one game out of the final playoff spot in the West. Let's wait for them to play a full few weeks with a healthy roster - or even with at least their best players available at full health - before getting all worked up. I will be surprised if we aren't at least winning at a 55% clip with Booker, Ayton, Oubre, Rubio, Baynes, and most of the bench guys fully operational.

We aren't going to put up 60 wins, of course - but the mid 40s or even 50 aren't out of reach by any means. That would be a pretty good season considering where we have been recently.

Of course, if we continue to be plagued by bad luck with injuries and other distractions, then all bets are off. But there is little or nothing anyone can do about bad luck.

 

[TJ]

Incredibly small sample size, but I'm gonna post DA's Per 36 min anyways to balance the thread a bit:

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He needs to get better in a number of areas such as playing through contact to draw fouls, but in certain aspects such as scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots, he's already showing improvement.

Curious what this will look like a month from today. Either way, the hawt takes need to die down a bit.

 

[BC867]

You're obsessed with adding size. I don't think it's even about you wanting Ayton to be a PF so much as you want 2 Centers on the floor at all times. That style of basketball doesn't work in the NBA right now.

Not so! I'm "obsessed" with a Center who will play, and can bang,
down low. One who can draw fouls.

That leaves two possibilities. Trade Ayton for a Center who will,
like Baynes, but one young enough to play starter's minutes.

Or, if not, get a Center who will and move Ayton to the logical
position of Power Forward, given his preference to play outside
and has shown no skill in maneuvering to the post while the
possession is in progress.