Suns look to trade up to #2 for Williams

[az jam]

Why would any team want Robin Lopez???

 

[SirStefan32]

I like Pekovic a lot, but I'd stick with Gortat.

 

[Folster]

Gortat is our best asset by far. He is a young starting center on an outstanding contract who averages a double-double. I don't have to remind Suns fans that centers like Gortat don't grow on trees. The #2 and Pekovic is not enough for Gortat and the #13

 

[devilalum]

Gortat is our best asset by far. He is a young starting center on an outstanding contract who averages a double-double. I don't have to remind Suns fans that centers like Gortat don't grow on trees. The #2 and Pekovic is not enough for Gortat and the #13

It all depends on what the #2 becomes. The suns need a star and they might have to take a risk to get one.

Last time the suns had the number 2 pick they got armon Gilliam.

 

[Mainstreet]

Gortat is our best asset by far. He is a young starting center on an outstanding contract who averages a double-double. I don't have to remind Suns fans that centers like Gortat don't grow on trees. The #2 and Pekovic is not enough for Gortat and the #13

Other than maybe one poster on this board, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

Not you Devilalum.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Other than maybe one poster on this board, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

I don't have a clue who you're talking about but I think it would be a sinsin to trade Gortat for anything other than mulitple FUTURE picks (unprotected, obviously). I like Williams and wouldn't mind pairing him with Marcin but if it's going to cost us Gortat, I'd like it to be for something that could pay dividends down the road. With Williams, we'd be a bad team with a good player and that doesn't seem much different than what we're about to be.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't have a clue who you're talking about but I think it would be a sinsin to trade Gortat for anything other than mulitple FUTURE picks (unprotected, obviously). I like Williams and wouldn't mind pairing him with Marcin but if it's going to cost us Gortat, I'd like it to be for something that could pay dividends down the road. With Williams, we'd be a bad team with a good player and that doesn't seem much different than what we're about to be.

Steve

What poster devalues Gortat and persistently includes him in trade proposals? You have one guess. "Sinsin" was close but no prize.

I'd like to keep Gortat but I'm willing to engage in what-if games until the draft. It's just another thing to talk about. I think someone at ESPN got this rumor started.

 

[slinslin]

Any trade where the center pieces are Gortat and the #2 pick being swapped is pretty much a no-brainer.

Derrick Williams > Gortat.

 

[desertdawg]

It will be nice watching Nash and Gortat working together this year. Frye, Dudley, Hill, it will be nice. No more Carter, excellent. I heard Lopez is already working out, and I think he does well against back up centers this year. A good defensive pick up and a someone decent @ #13 is all I expect.

Suns said they want to get tougher, I see the new midget running the bench with Lopez concentrating on the glass and defense (yes, Robin Lopez), mixed with some 3 point shooting and tough defense. I will be glad when the draft is over, slinslin won't but I will.

 

[Covert Rain]

What poster devalues Gortat and persistently includes him in trade proposals? You have one guess. "Sinsin" was close but no prize.

I'd like to keep Gortat but I'm willing to engage in what-if games until the draft. It's just another thing to talk about. I think someone at ESPN got this rumor started.

My biggest problem with "slinslins" no brainer trading Gortat for #2 is this. In a deeper draft Williams falls in the draft. In a deeper draft no way Williams is the #2 pick. His value is overinflated IMO because this draft is riddled with guys destined to become journeyman type players. Guys are so close in talent that many draft sites have had guys sliding up and down since they first posted their Mock drafts. Many analyst are saying several of these players are simply too close in talent.

Would I consider it? I think you have to look at it because it is the #2 pick. But it's not a lock. You should be able to wrangle that #2 pick without giving up Gortat. You should be able to throw in Lopez another player possibly a 2nd rounder next year. There is just no reason that the #2 pick should cost you Gortat in this draft.

The biggest case for that is slinslins hatred for the guy.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Gortat provides for the Suns what Tyson Chandler does for the Mavs. He brings a different culture. He is big, he rebounds, he hustles, he plays great D, and he holds teammates accountable. If the Suns trade Gortat for the #2 and draft Williams, they are going back to old Suns ball. Williams looks like a Beasley clone to me. The key to any defensive team is a defensive anchor in the middle. Any trade involving Gortat has to bring someone with similar impact back. Big men that fit Gortat's description are rare though not flashy in the statistics department.

I understand that that Gortat for #2, simply from a player value standpoint, looks like a no-brainer. But from the perspective of where this team wants to go, it is not nearly as clear. So Slin's argument is not unreasonable from a player for player viewpoint.

I would give up any other player on this team for the #2, including a combination of Nash and Dudley or Chandler or Lopez and the #13. I would be in favor of trading Nash for any reasonable piece that could move us forward, including a 2012 first round pick.

 

[PhxGametime]

I would Love to make that Trade and Gortat is my favorite player currently. The only issue I have is I believe Derrick Williams could put up Amar'e Stoudemire like numbers at the 4 but I did read he sees himself as 3. Still don't know how I feel about that, he has talent to play the 3 but I'm not sure who you would compare him to at the 3... I'd rather have another Amar'e than I would Carmelo Anthony, for example.


and for all the talk that Williams would be a much lower Draft Pick in a deeper Draft - last year Ekpe Udoh went high, Michael Beasley, Jordan Hill, Yi Jianlian, Channing Frye, Sheldin Williams, Mike Sweetney, etc. - I would rather have him over those other top-10 Picks, in recent years. IMO, he proved more than everybody on that list but maybe Beasley.

 

[Covert Rain]

I would Love to make that Trade and Gortat is my favorite player currently. The only issue I have is I believe Derrick Williams could put up Amar'e Stoudemire like numbers at the 4 but I did read he sees himself as 3. Still don't know how I feel about that, he has talent to play the 3 but I'm not sure who you would compare him to at the 3... I'd rather have another Amar'e than I would Carmelo Anthony, for example.

and for all the talk that Williams would be a much lower Draft Pick in a deeper Draft - last year Ekpe Udoh went high, Michael Beasley, Jordan Hill, Yi Jianlian, Channing Frye, Sheldin Williams, Mike Sweetney, etc. - I would rather have him over those other top-10 Picks, in recent years. IMO, he proved more than everybody on that list but maybe Beasley.

Hindsight is 20/20. However, if you have 10 potentially high quality players in a draft versus 2 or 3, I will take my chances in the deeper draft. As posted earlier, there have been several draft busts within the 1st few picks in previous drafts. My point was that just because a guy is considered one of the top few picks in a weak draft doesn't mean he is more talented then guys taken later in deeper drafts. In a weak draft it just means he was better then the class coming out of college.

Williams is no lock to be the next anything. Especially with him looking like a 4 but being a tweener who wants to play the 3. Big men are a huge commidity in the NBA. Legit big men even more so because so many guys are drafted for size then actual talent (look no further then Lopez). If you trade a legit big man it better be for a lock.

One of Williams main criticisms is his athleticism. He like to jump off one foot and plays below the rim around the basket like a 4. He also has a low release and not much of a midrange game which is going to be essential for him at the next level. He also has a reputation for being "streaky" and going entire halves without doing much. I do think Williams will be one of those players that plays in the NBA for 10 years but none of the above says lock does it?

What I don't think he will be is a Superstar or player to anchor your franchise. I don't think you give up a legit big man unless your getting a franchise player. When you factor in how long the Suns have suffered between getting legit big men on this team...you have to error on the side of caution because it could be another 10 years before you get another.

It's not like Williams will be the next SF star like James Worthy, Dominique Wilkins, Scottie Pippen, Rick Barry, Doctor J, Elgin Byalor, John Havlicek, Larry Bird or LeBron. It's hard to build a franchise around a SF and even the greats don't come along that often at that position. I don't know of anybody saying Williams will reach that level which is why I would be very hesitant to trade a legit big man or give up too much period for him.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Even if we can convince Williams to play the 4, do we really want 5, 6, 7 years of a 6'8" SF who was convinced to play PF?

I would take Williams on this team, but I would not want to use Gortat to get him and I would let him play at SF.

Anything less than that is square peg, round hole....

 

[Covert Rain]

Even if we can convince Williams to play the 4, do we really want 5, 6, 7 years of a 6'8" SF who was convinced to play PF?

I would take Williams on this team, but I would not want to use Gortat to get him and I would let him play at SF.

Anything less than that is square peg, round hole....

Exactly. It would be Amare being forced to play Center all over again. It would mean the Suns playing small ball again as well. We would be stuck with Lopez who plays small, a PF who is small and hope that positions 1-3 can rebound.

I thought we wanted to get away from small ball? Not go back to it.

 

[leclerc]

Yeah sounds good to hang onto Gortat.

Gortat + Williams = yes
Gortat + Nash = okay
Nash + Williams = no

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Yeah sounds good to hang onto Gortat.

Gortat + Williams = yes
Gortat + Nash = okay
Nash + Williams = no

I'd argue that Nash-FA/trade-Williams-Frye-Gortat is a well-balanced starting 5 that could do damage if they gelled properly. Gortat plays the bull in the china shop, Frye is the big who draws his defender out of the paint, and Williams (AT THE 3) is our slasher and a banger for the position. I couldn't argue with that lineup....

 

[Divide Et Impera]

Problem is, where do we find a good, cheap, young 4 to 5 year vet to put in at the 2 via FA/trade? Any ideas? Would Alflalo work? Do we have to go veteran again?

 

[Broseph]

My biggest problem with "slinslins" no brainer trading Gortat for #2 is this. In a deeper draft Williams falls in the draft. In a deeper draft no way Williams is the #2 pick. His value is overinflated IMO because this draft is riddled with guys destined to become journeyman type players. Guys are so close in talent that many draft sites have had guys sliding up and down since they first posted their Mock drafts. Many analyst are saying several of these players are simply too close in talent.

Would I consider it? I think you have to look at it because it is the #2 pick. But it's not a lock. You should be able to wrangle that #2 pick without giving up Gortat. You should be able to throw in Lopez another player possibly a 2nd rounder next year. There is just no reason that the #2 pick should cost you Gortat in this draft.

The biggest case for that is slinslins hatred for the guy.

dude did you watch any of the tourney? williams was one of the best or if not the best player in that tournament. he was absolutely lethal.

 

[Broseph]

here's the deal, i'd hate to see gortat go, but sometimes you have to take risks in order to get better. williams has potential to be an unbelievable player in the NBA. no one knows, thats why you gotta take a risk. gortat is a great player, maybe not all-star caliber, but he does his work. like i said, i'd hate to see him go, but i would be very excited to see what williams can do in a suns uniform. the real dark horse here is robin lopez. he's still young, and if he can improve his game, we may not miss gortat as much. there is a lot of "if's"...but sometimes, you gotta take risks.

 

[desertdawg]

Gortat isn't going anywhere, but you guys keep going on and on... it's pretty funny. I guess you gotta kill the time somehow.

 

[JCSunsfan]

dude did you watch any of the tourney? williams was one of the best or if not the best player in that tournament. he was absolutely lethal.

So was Ed Pinckney when we drafted him. There are lots of players that have good tournament runs but do not pan out that well in the NBA. Again, Williams looks like a clone of Beasley to me. I think there is a good chance he will be a good player.

But productive, defensive oriented centers are gold.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

dude did you watch any of the tourney? williams was one of the best or if not the best player in that tournament. he was absolutely lethal.

This.

here's the deal, i'd hate to see gortat go, but sometimes you have to take risks in order to get better. williams has potential to be an unbelievable player in the NBA. no one knows, thats why you gotta take a risk. gortat is a great player, maybe not all-star caliber, but he does his work. like i said, i'd hate to see him go, but i would be very excited to see what williams can do in a suns uniform. the real dark horse here is robin lopez. he's still young, and if he can improve his game, we may not miss gortat as much. there is a lot of "if's"...but sometimes, you gotta take risks.

This.

So was Ed Pinckney when we drafted him. There are lots of players that have good tournament runs but do not pan out that well in the NBA. Again, Williams looks like a clone of Beasley to me. I think there is a good chance he will be a good player.

Not This. There is one huge difference with Pinckney and Williams. Ed was a Senior. In college basketball you can be the best player on the court just because you have been there longer then everyone else. Williams is a sophomore who didn't struggle at all over two years. The guys who come in dominate as freshman like Williams did are the ones most likely to turn into gold in the NBA.

Again my boy with the robo dog on his avatar is completely off base. Williams would have been the #1 pick if not for a team like Cleveland who was starving for a PG. It has NOTHING to do with a weak draft. He is Carmelo Anthony level good.

I am waiting for someone to tell me why Williams isn't going to be a good, maybe great player. Whats his weakness again? Hes extremly athletic, he can shoot, he gets to the line, he works hard, all he has done is produce for his two years, and unlike Beasley (who has TONS of natural talent) he is not a complete knucklehead. THATS why Beasley is half od what he should be. That won't happen with Williams. and in fact thats my favorite thing about him. He gets it and is a hard worker and always working on his game. That tweener thing is so stupid. I am trying to make everyone understand Williams played the 4 out of necessity. He is a 3 in the NBA. There is no question about it. Are the people who are questioning that fans who actually watched him this past year? Did you see his improved handle and 3 point shot? He shot freaking 60% from 3 for god sake. Did undersized tweener PF's like Beasely, Elton Brand, Dejuan Blair, or Al Horford do that?

Don't kid yourselves Suns fan. I LOVE Gortat and would do anything I can to keep him. But if Minny won't budge, then you make that trade in a second.

Potential FRANCHISE PLAYERS are what gold in the NBA. Not a 15 and 8 defensive minded Center. Take a step back here guys. You are overvaluing Gortat. Again i LOVE Marcin. But you take the swing on Williams. 10 times out of 10.

 

[Irish]

This.

Potential FRANCHISE PLAYERS are what gold in the NBA. Not a 15 and 8 defensive minded Center. Take a step back here guys. You are overvaluing Gortat. Again i LOVE Marcin. But you take the swing on Williams. 10 times out of 10.

Nothing worries me more than trading really good players for "can' miss" prospects. Remember 2001 when Kwame Brown was the #1 pick. Chandler was #2 (he did not became any good until after he was gone) and Eddy Curry was #4. Eddie Griffin went #7 and Diop #8 and Rodney White #9. Granted few drafts produced so many flops or very long devloping players, but it is not uncommon to see huge fllops in the early lottery. I have no reason to think Williams will be one as well, but neither did the others who drafted guys who were then thought of as "can't miss".

 

[Magnus]

I've read that Toronto is also trying for the #2 pick. If they are willing to give Bargnani then this whole debate is pointless. Minesotta will take Bargnani over Gortat for sure.

Even if that is not the case, I'd be reluctant to trade Gortat. This whole draft is a bigger role on the dice than usual, and chances to get a surprise future starting NBA player anywhere in the first round are kind of the same as the chances that Williams will be an all-star. Williams is a lesser gamble of course, but at the price of Gortat? Gortat is a legit center, and on top of that, he likes playing here and brings extra motivation to a team that desperately needs it.

Gortat is all about making himself and the team as a whole better. And that's the kind of player I'd like to have on any team.