Suns @ Mavericks 1-5-17

[Phrazbit]

Yeah, the Sixers, they're a model franchise. Things are going peachy for them.

 

[leclerc]

Reality is we need stars and we have none. Perhaps some of our young players will turn into stars. Most likely Booker. It's easiest to get stars in the draft since we're not a popular destination lately. So play the young guys so we can decide who to keep and get one more high draft pick in the process. Then build around those two.

 

[Chaplin]

Reality is we need stars and we have none. Perhaps some of our young players will turn into stars. Most likely Booker. It's easiest to get stars in the draft since we're not a popular destination lately. So play the young guys so we can decide who to keep and get one more high draft pick in the process. Then build around those two.

That same philosophy has been repeated for 6 years. What do we have to show for it? Devin Booker.

At this rate we should win a championship in 72 years.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns have Booker, Warren, Chriss, Bender and Bledsoe. Also I like Ulis. Add one quality free agent and a good draft pick in a solid draft the Suns could be in business. It should not be forgotten, the Suns have two first round picks coming from the Heat.

Blow the team up now and we start all over again.

The Suns need to trade Knight and test the market with Tucker and Chandler. It could be the Suns keep Chandler and let Len walk if he costs too much.

Something to think about. The Suns could even use future pick(s) to further bolster their roster.

When Miami conveys first round picks to the Suns (in those years they are conveyed) the Suns could place provisions on the Suns/Miami picks in those drafts where they have the choice of which pick to convey. Naturally the Suns would chose the better pick to keep. This way the Suns could trade those future picks earlier.

 

[BC867]

The Suns have Booker, Warren, Chriss, Bender and Bledsoe. Also I like Ulis. Add one quality free agent and a good draft pick in a solid draft the Suns could be in business.

I know we are all hoping for the best, as we have been for years. But pinning our hopes on Chriss, Bledsoe and Ulis reeks of mediocrity.

Chris has shown no sign of ever being an above average Power Forward; Bledsoe is flashy but without a natural position and lacks the personality to be a team leader; and Ulis is an undersized Guard. The fact that he is our most talented Point Guard but not in the rotation shows how weak we are.

And Alex Len has given no indication that he should be our starting Center of the future.

As long as $arver is running the show (with his inexperienced GM's and bargain basement Head Coaches), we can't hold the jockstrap of any legitimate NBA organization.

Sad but, isn't it, true?!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That same philosophy has been repeated for 6 years. What do we have to show for it? Devin Booker.

At this rate we should win a championship in 72 years.

No it hasn't. We haven't tanked tank. Last year is the best example. In a draft largely lauded for being a two pick draft we won just enough down the stretch to not get one of those two picks.

 

[Chaplin]

No it hasn't. We haven't tanked tank. Last year is the best example. In a draft largely lauded for being a two pick draft we won just enough down the stretch to not get one of those two picks.

That's if you subscribe to the theory of tanking, which Philadelphia has proven doesn't work.

 

[Mainstreet]

I know we are all hoping for the best, as we have been for years. But pinning our hopes on Chriss, Bledsoe and Ulis reeks of mediocrity.

Chris has shown no sign of ever being an above average Power Forward; Bledsoe is flashy but without a natural position and lacks the personality to be a team leader; and Ulis is an undersized Guard. The fact that he is our most talented Point Guard but not in the rotation shows how weak we are.

And Alex Len has given no indication that he should be our starting Center of the future.

As long as $arver is running the show (with his inexperienced GM's and bargain basement Head Coaches), we can't hold the jockstrap of any legitimate NBA organization.

Sad but, isn't it, true?!

I'm certainly not pinning the Suns hopes on Ulis although I think he has a lot of upside we have not seen.

I think Chriss has shown a lot for a player only 19.

Also, you didn't mention Booker, Warren and Bender as part of the Suns future.

 

[BC867]

Also, you didn't mention Booker, Warren and Bender as part of the Suns future.

Because I agree that Booker, Warren and Bender are key parts of our future.

I cited Chriss, Bledsoe, Ulis and Len as well as our GM and Head Coach as people upon whom we cannot depend to take us to the position of strong playoff contender.

That's a lot of mediocrity. We are not in a position to take the next step now any more than we have been for the past six years.

 

[hsandhu]

That's if you subscribe to the theory of tanking, which Philadelphia has proven doesn't work.

It hasn't worked for philly? They have one franchise player, and very possibly two depending on how good simmons looks.

They'll likely have two draft picks in this highly rated draft, and tons of cap space for years while the young guys are on rookie contracts.

 

[Phrazbit]

It hasn't worked for philly? They have one franchise player, and very possibly two depending on how good simmons looks.

They'll likely have two draft picks in this highly rated draft, and tons of cap space for years while the young guys are on rookie contracts.

Yeah, and it only took them several seasons of being completely unwatchable... and... they're STILL unwatchable and probably will be for several more years.

They have one potential franchise player and then a whole lot of question marks and jack squat. When they embarked on this tanking mission I don't think anyone in Philly knew how horrid the journey would be, and its end still is not in sight.

 

[hsandhu]

Yeah, and it only took them several seasons of being completely unwatchable... and... they're STILL unwatchable and probably will be for several more years.

They have one potential franchise player and then a whole lot of question marks and jack squat. When they embarked on this tanking mission I don't think anyone in Philly knew how horrid the journey would be, and its end still is not in sight.

So it would have been better if they were a mediocre team with no long term title hopes, say a Detroit, the last couple years, you consider that more watchable?

Barkley saw simmons practice before the injury and said philly has two franchise players so that is a worse option then being mediocre for the last few seasons? And they pick up another 1 or 2 big time players in this draft.

 

[sunsfan88]

That's if you subscribe to the theory of tanking, which Philadelphia has proven doesn't work.

How has it not worked for Philly? You realize that Philly is closer to being a contender than the Suns right? Embiid is better than any prospect the Suns have. He's got Hall of Fame type potential while Simmons looks to be an all star type player.

Philly has tanked for what, 4 years? So they got two amazing talents for tanking for 4 years.

Explain to me what the Suns have done during those 4 years please.

Even in the present, they have a better record than the Suns.

 

[Phrazbit]

So it would have been better if they were a mediocre team with no long term title hopes, say a Detroit, the last couple years, you consider that more watchable?

Barkley saw simmons practice before the injury and said philly has two franchise players so that is a worse option then being mediocre for the last few seasons? And they pick up another 1 or 2 big time players in this draft.

I like Barkley but he is the king of hyperbole, there are a ton of red flags around Simmons and Embiid, while very talented, has serious injury concerns. I don't know where Philly would be if they'd plotted a different course, but I know where they are now and where they've been the last several years, a terrible team, which is totally unwatchable and a flat lined fan base.

You realize that Philly is closer to being a contender than the Suns right? .

This is like saying "I'm closer to getting to the moon because I put on high heels".

Philly is terrible, they've been terrible for years and it will be, at minimum, several more years before they're something besides terrible. And if Embiid gets hurt then they'll remain terrible for lord knows how long.

I'm not going to sing the Suns praises but this idea that tanking is some sure fire plan for success is laughable and using the hapless Sixers as an example is absurd.

 

[leclerc]

Well we had absolutely no young talent six years ago, except Dragic maybe. Now we have a core of Booker, Warren, Bender, Len & co. to build around.

Enough about the tank and Philly talk. Has someone got a realistic idea of how to get closer to competing, than going into the lotto by blowing up the team?

Also we had some horrible seasons because of injuries and other issues. Not just tanking on purpose.

 

[Hoop Head]

How has it not worked for Philly? You realize that Philly is closer to being a contender than the Suns right? Embiid is better than any prospect the Suns have. He's got Hall of Fame type potential while Simmons looks to be an all star type player.

Philly has tanked for what, 4 years? So they got two amazing talents for tanking for 4 years.

Explain to me what the Suns have done during those 4 years please.

Even in the present, they have a better record than the Suns.

It's funny how a lot of Suns fans have been pointing to Philly and their potential lately, stating they have a far brighter future than Phoenix does. I'm not so sure about that though, especially because of Embiid, who is often referenced as to why their future is brighter. Who knows how long he'll be healthy, he's had 2 stress fractures in his right foot already with each one causing him to miss a whole season. It was also revealed he had a stress fractures in his back before he was drafted. He's been great so far but his minutes are being closely monitored and he's sitting out in back to backs. He could end up like Greg Oden, missing a lot of time before finally showing why he was highly touted coming into the league but then suffering more injuries. Simmons hasn't played yet. Noel missed 1 full season already and is still battling injuries. Okafor has been dealing with injuries since entering the league, playing just 53 games last year and missing 10 games already this year. They haven't been able to actually play 3 of the 4 players they acquired through tanking together.

Yet Suns fans bash guys on our team for injury issues that aren't nearly as severe as what Philly has dealt with. Guys like Bledsoe, Knight, Warren, and even Len get undervalued because they're "injury prone" but Warren has had 2 injuries in 3 years, nothing reoccurring though. Len hasn't missed much time at all since his rookie year, only missing 13 games in his 2nd season and 4 in his 3rd. I can understand Bledsoe since he's been playing every other year, in a way, since coming to Phoenix, and Knight has had issue but since his role has been reduced he's been fine, health wise. The Sarver hate, coach bashing, and GM bashing would have probably driven away a number of posters here if we as bad as Philly has been since 2012-13, which was the last season they won more than 20 games. There is no way fans would have been ok with tanking like they have just for 4 highly injury prone prospects, which is all they have. They wouldn't be happy keeping the same coach through it all either. They're still headed towards another bottom 5 finish this year and on pace for just 26 wins. They set the all time record for losses in a row with 28 plus through in a 26 and 17 game losing streak in there over the last 4 years.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well we had absolutely no young talent six years ago, except Dragic maybe. Now we have a core of Booker, Warren, Bender, Len & co. to build around.

Enough about the tank and Philly talk. Has someone got a realistic idea of how to get closer to competing, than going into the lotto by blowing up the team?

Also we had some horrible seasons because of injuries and other issues. Not just tanking on purpose.

There is more than tanking to build a franchise although I guess there are better odds of drafting a star early in the draft.

I think the best way to build a franchise without intentionally tanking is to hire a good head coach and draft well. Looking at the draft, Rudy Gobert was drafted #27 in the first round, Kawhi Leonard was drafted #15 and Steve Nash was drafted #15. There are many more.

Even Devin Booker was drafted #13.

 

[Ronin]

There is more than tanking to build a franchise although I guess there are better odds of drafting a star early in the draft.

I think the best way to build a franchise without intentionally tanking is to hire a good head coach and draft well. Looking at the draft, Rudy Gobert was drafted #27 in the first round, Kawhi Leonard was drafted #15 and Steve Nash was drafted #15. There are many more.

Even Devin Booker was drafted #13.

Wasn't Kobe the #13 pick the year we picked Steve Nash? The Laker trade always has me confused where Kobe was picked in that draft.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wasn't Kobe the #13 pick the year we picked Steve Nash? The Laker trade always has me confused where Kobe was picked in that draft.

The Suns wanted to draft Kobe but Nash was a nice consolation prize. This is another good example, gold is where you find it. Some say scouting is better today but I'm not so sure.

 

[Hoop Head]

The Suns wanted to draft Kobe but Nash was a nice consolation prize. This is another good example, gold is where you find it. Some say scouting is better today but I'm not so sure.

Scouting is better but the players aren't as developed as they were back in the 90's. Most guys now leave college after just 1 year and pro scouts can't scope out High School games either so they only get a small sample size of what the players are capable of. Back in 96, when Kobe and Nash were drafted, only 2 players made the jump from high school to the pros, Kobe and Jermaine O'Neal, and only 2 other players in the first round joined after just their freshman year in college, Marbury and Shareef Abdur-Raheem. So out of 29 picks only 4 had less than 2 years of college ball under their belt. There was 5 international players but only 2 of them came straight to the NBA, the others waited a year or two before coming over. Nowadays it's almost the opposite in terms of experience that players have when they're drafted, there is probably about 9 players, at most, who have multiple years in college before entering the draft. It's almost viewed negatively if a player stayed in college too long.

A lot of raw talent is coming into the league and it shows because the race for Rookie of the Year is usually between 1 or 2 players that were drafted in the top 5 and then another dark horse sort of candidate who was picked a little later. It takes a couple of seasons in the pros for those 1 and done players to the point where they can contribute because they only played high school ball and standout players are able to dominate there because the competition is really low for them. Players don't learn enough in college anymore, not in the classroom but on the court. Since players are done in a year and know that going in they're not as interested in learning the game at a higher level than they should be. Their priority is to stay healthy and raise their draft stock not learn to play at a higher and more competitive level.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

That's if you subscribe to the theory of tanking, which Philadelphia has proven doesn't work.

I think they are in the verge of proving you wrong. Embiid is on a minutes linitation and Simmons hasn't played at all yet. Tell me how badly that strategy worked next year when they move one of their bigs for an effective guard to play with Dario, Simmons and Embiid.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think they are in the verge of proving you wrong. Embiid is on a minutes linitation and Simmons hasn't played at all yet. Tell me how badly that strategy worked next year when they move one of their bigs for an effective guard to play with Dario, Simmons and Embiid.

The problem with the Philly model is that it makes a mockery of the league, competition, etc. Its unethical. Its one thing to go with young players as you try to build. Its is quite another to intentionally NOT compete as a front office or on the court.

 

[Mainstreet]

Scouting is better but the players aren't as developed as they were back in the 90's. Most guys now leave college after just 1 year and pro scouts can't scope out High School games either so they only get a small sample size of what the players are capable of. Back in 96, when Kobe and Nash were drafted, only 2 players made the jump from high school to the pros, Kobe and Jermaine O'Neal, and only 2 other players in the first round joined after just their freshman year in college, Marbury and Shareef Abdur-Raheem. So out of 29 picks only 4 had less than 2 years of college ball under their belt. There was 5 international players but only 2 of them came straight to the NBA, the others waited a year or two before coming over. Nowadays it's almost the opposite in terms of experience that players have when they're drafted, there is probably about 9 players, at most, who have multiple years in college before entering the draft. It's almost viewed negatively if a player stayed in college too long.

A lot of raw talent is coming into the league and it shows because the race for Rookie of the Year is usually between 1 or 2 players that were drafted in the top 5 and then another dark horse sort of candidate who was picked a little later. It takes a couple of seasons in the pros for those 1 and done players to the point where they can contribute because they only played high school ball and standout players are able to dominate there because the competition is really low for them. Players don't learn enough in college anymore, not in the classroom but on the court. Since players are done in a year and know that going in they're not as interested in learning the game at a higher level than they should be. Their priority is to stay healthy and raise their draft stock not learn to play at a higher and more competitive level.

Since a lot of raw talent is coming into the league I think the scouts are looking at the skills and potential of young players rather than how advanced their game is. I think we agree here. However, it does not mean the scouts cannot miss on players who are particularly raw. I think Rudy Gobert is an example.

Actually it might take years to know the quality of a particular draft class. There are going to be sleepers in every draft that will surprise later on. I believe this will happen more so in the future. NBA Commissioner Adam Silver pointed out at halftime of the Spurs game there are a lot more NBA talented players who should be coming out of countries like Australia and Mexico as basketball takes hold. He pointed out even the smaller European countries are producing a lot of NBA talent. So there are huge untapped sources. I think as basketball takes hold in more countries there will be a flood of NBA talent entering the draft. The more raw talent entering the draft, the better chance of drafting NBA talent later in the draft.

 

[Mainstreet]

The problem with the Philly model is that it makes a mockery of the league, competition, etc. Its unethical. Its one thing to go with young players as you try to build. Its is quite another to intentionally NOT compete as a front office or on the court.

This is why I have not been excited how the 76ers have built there roster. I don't believe perpetual losing should be rewarded.

 

[GatorAZ]

The problem with the Philly model is that it makes a mockery of the league, competition, etc. Its unethical. Its one thing to go with young players as you try to build. Its is quite another to intentionally NOT compete as a front office or on the court.

What should Hinkie have done differently from a transaction standpoint? Overpay FA's to be proactive like Josh Childress and Hakim Warrick? Play rookies right away that have significant injury histories? Not trade away average PG's that can't shoot like Michael Carter-Williams and Efrid Payton for potential top-10 picks (possibly top-5)? Not take on bad contracts like Carl Landry and Gerald Wallace for future assets?

To me Hinkie should be a GM and not head of bball ops. He's not very good in interviews and comes off as arrogant. He needs to be calling the shots behind the scenes while a more PR savvy person handles the comminuication side. Maybe he'll learn from those mistakes when he gets another job (maybe not GM specifically) but there's a place in the league for his skills.