Suns @ Mavericks 1-5-17

[Phrazbit]

What should Hinkie have done differently from a transaction standpoint? Overpay FA's to be proactive like Josh Childress and Hakim Warrick? Play rookies right away that have significant injury histories? Not trade away average PG's that can't shoot like Michael Carter-Williams and Efrid Payton for potential top-10 picks (possibly top-5)? Not take on bad contracts like Carl Landry and Gerald Wallace for future assets?

To me Hinkie should be a GM and not head of bball ops. He's not very good in interviews and comes off as arrogant. He needs to be calling the shots behind the scenes while a more PR savvy person handles the comminuication side. Maybe he'll learn from those mistakes when he gets another job (maybe not GM specifically) but there's a place in the league for his skills.

Maybe... not fill his roster with D-League players and guys with injury problems? Their deliberate losing was shameless and despite several years of record settingly awful basketball they're still terrible and what talent they do have has major red flags. Being awful isn't hard, Hinkie has shown essentially zero talent besides knowing how to create a trash team, he took obvious picks really high, he found zero sleeper picks, zero sleeper free agents and whiffed on a few high picks while he was at it.

 

[sunsfan88]

It's funny how a lot of Suns fans have been pointing to Philly and their potential lately, stating they have a far brighter future than Phoenix does. I'm not so sure about that though, especially because of Embiid, who is often referenced as to why their future is brighter. Who knows how long he'll be healthy, he's had 2 stress fractures in his right foot already with each one causing him to miss a whole season. It was also revealed he had a stress fractures in his back before he was drafted. He's been great so far but his minutes are being closely monitored and he's sitting out in back to backs. He could end up like Greg Oden, missing a lot of time before finally showing why he was highly touted coming into the league but then suffering more injuries. Simmons hasn't played yet. Noel missed 1 full season already and is still battling injuries. Okafor has been dealing with injuries since entering the league, playing just 53 games last year and missing 10 games already this year. They haven't been able to actually play 3 of the 4 players they acquired through tanking together.

Yet Suns fans bash guys on our team for injury issues that aren't nearly as severe as what Philly has dealt with. Guys like Bledsoe, Knight, Warren, and even Len get undervalued because they're "injury prone" but Warren has had 2 injuries in 3 years, nothing reoccurring though. Len hasn't missed much time at all since his rookie year, only missing 13 games in his 2nd season and 4 in his 3rd. I can understand Bledsoe since he's been playing every other year, in a way, since coming to Phoenix, and Knight has had issue but since his role has been reduced he's been fine, health wise. The Sarver hate, coach bashing, and GM bashing would have probably driven away a number of posters here if we as bad as Philly has been since 2012-13, which was the last season they won more than 20 games. There is no way fans would have been ok with tanking like they have just for 4 highly injury prone prospects, which is all they have. They wouldn't be happy keeping the same coach through it all either. They're still headed towards another bottom 5 finish this year and on pace for just 26 wins. They set the all time record for losses in a row with 28 plus through in a 26 and 17 game losing streak in there over the last 4 years.

There was been plenty of players who dealt with injury issues early in their career and then turned out alright. Nash used to have severe back problems with Dallas. Steph was seen as one of the most injury prone guards in the league when he was given that current contract and he's now been a top 2 player in the league for 3 years running.

I don't care about Noel or Okafor for them as much as I do Embiid, Simmons and Saric. Not to mention due to the generosity of the Suns, they also have the Lakers pick this season along with their very own high pick to get them a good PG in this upcoming draft which is strong on PGs.

And even if the Suns weren't as bad as Philly during Hinkie's time there, there's one thing we can't forget. Both the 76ers and the Suns have won the same amount of playoff games during Hinkie's tenure. 76ers have a HOF talent in Embiid and another potential star in Simmons to show for it while the Suns have a potential star in Booker and then...not much else. Warren, Bender and Chriss may all turn out alright but their ceiling could be about the same as what Saric is for Philly. I could be wrong but just based on what we know right now.

 

[GatorAZ]

Maybe... not fill his roster with D-League players and guys with injury problems? Their deliberate losing was shameless and despite several years of record settingly awful basketball they're still terrible and what talent they do have has major red flags. Being awful isn't hard, Hinkie has shown essentially zero talent besides knowing how to create a trash team, he took obvious picks really high, he found zero sleeper picks, zero sleeper free agents and whiffed on a few high picks while he was at it.

Its not difficult to create a trash team but it's not easy to leave the team in 10x better shape than it was when inherited. Bottom line is not everyone has the stomach for tanking and if you're going to blame a guy for missing on 2nd rd picks then every GM should be included. I would think most unbiased ppl would look at his moves as successes. The Okafor pick is looking like a miss atm.

 

[Phrazbit]

Its not difficult to create a trash team but it's not easy to leave the team in 10x better shape than it was when inherited. Bottom line is not everyone has the stomach for tanking and if you're going to blame a guy for missing on 2nd rd picks then every GM should be included. I would think most unbiased ppl would look at his moves as successes. The Okafor pick is looking like a miss atm.

Other than building a garbage roster what move has he made that was astute? I don't think having the guts to be terrible is a winning quality.

Okafor looks like a nothing special, Dario Saric (they traded a 10th pick for his draft rights) its early but he looks terrible, even as good as Embiid is, he has already missed 2 full seasons of his career, they're not even going to enjoy the fruits of him on a rookie deal, they're going to have to max him out after his 2nd season and pray he doesn't get hurt. Simmons has red flags and is hurt. He traded players for a bajillion 2nd round picks and basically got nothing out of them, and yes, it might be tough to get talent in the 2nd round but when part of your strategy is to load up on them and you get nothing then it has to be held against you.

So, during his run they were the worst team in the league, through the draft they got a potential star who then missed 2 seasons, a forward who looks like a whiff and Ben Simmons, who is also hurt and has a lot of other issues. In free agency they got zero talent, via trades they got basically nothing and from the 14 (yes, FOURTEEN) other picks, 2 of which were late lotto first rounders, they have virtually nothing to show for them.

I would say Hinke was not only bad, but was a complete freaking disaster. Even if Embiid turns out to be the stud of studs, he was an obvious pick and the rest of his draft record is spotty... and that is being as kind as possible.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And Hinkie wasn't fired. They brought someone in to smooth over the disaster he had been in all other areas and Hinkie had a hissy fit. He took his ball and went home AFTER he wrote his ridiculous exit manifesto explaining why he felt he had to leave. Sorry, even if your company makes toilets, you don't promote your best janitor to GM just because he excels at cleaning restrooms.

 

[GatorAZ]

Other than building a garbage roster what move has he made that was astute? I don't think having the guts to be terrible is a winning quality.

Okafor looks like a nothing special, Dario Saric (they traded a 10th pick for his draft rights) its early but he looks terrible, even as good as Embiid is, he has already missed 2 full seasons of his career, they're not even going to enjoy the fruits of him on a rookie deal, they're going to have to max him out after his 2nd season and pray he doesn't get hurt. Simmons has red flags and is hurt. He traded players for a bajillion 2nd round picks and basically got nothing out of them, and yes, it might be tough to get talent in the 2nd round but when part of your strategy is to load up on them and you get nothing then it has to be held against you.

So, during his run they were the worst team in the league, through the draft they got a potential star who then missed 2 seasons, a forward who looks like a whiff and Ben Simmons, who is also hurt and has a lot of other issues. In free agency they got zero talent, via trades they got basically nothing and from the 14 (yes, FOURTEEN) other picks, 2 of which were late lotto first rounders, they have virtually nothing to show for them.

I would say Hinke was not only bad, but was a complete freaking disaster. Even if Embiid turns out to be the stud of studs, he was an obvious pick and the rest of his draft record is spotty... and that is being as kind as possible.

You're still ignoring all of the important moves and picks made to turn the franchise into one of promise. People aren't realizing how bad the outlook was before he got here. The 76ers were a 34-win team and their best player was often injured Jrue Holliday. They had traded their 2014 first rd pick for Arnette Moultrie (disaster) and their 2017 first rd pick for Andrew Bynum (disaster).

- Hinkie's first pick was Michael Carter-Williams who won Rookie of the Year (good pick). They realized he overachieved and would never duplicate those numbers and turned him into the Lakers' pick which the Suns previously owned (basically straight up trade rape) so not only will they have their own pick (which he got back in the Efrid Payton trade) but a possible additional top 4-8 pick (in the strongest draft in some time)

His first major trade was Jrue Holliday which returned them the #6 pick (Noel) and #10 pick (Payton). Noel was considered to be the #1 pick had he been healthy and received DPOY votes when he got on the court

Payton was later traded for Saric (both average players) and their outright 2017 pick returned from the Bynum debacle

I don't really know how anyone can criticize them for sitting out young big men with injury problems because a.) why rush them into playing and b.) they could've potentially lost their pick by winning games

Also he took on salary from Sacramento for an unprotected 1st in 2019 and protected 1st from OKC in 2021. They Kurt Thomas'd the Kings

I disagree he had zero late rd/undrafted pickups. Robert Covington, Jeramie Grant, TJ McConnell and KJ McDaniels might hang around the league for a while. If you're going to criticize Hinkie for not hitting on 2nd rd picks you should name every GM not named RC Buford and Bob Myers.

So instead of a 34-win veteran aging team with guys like Jason Richardson, Andre Iguodala and Andrew Bynum and potential 14' and 17' picks list. They have...

Joel Embiid
Ben Simmons
Nerlens Noel
Jahilil Okafor (jury's still out but it's looking like a bad pick)
Dario Saric (would be already be writing him off if he were a Sun?)
Covington
Ilyasova (acquired with the pick of Grant)
2017 1st (was traded away for Bynum top-8 protected but returned in the Efrid Payton deal)
2017 Lakers 1st top- protected (MCW trade)
Rights to swap with Sac had they been worse
18' own pick
19' own pick
2019 unprotected 1st from Sac
2020 protected 1st from OKC

Now at full health the Sixers are winning games and Bryan Colangelo has young talent plus toy box full of assets and cap space to play with...

 

[AzStevenCal]

You're still ignoring all of the important moves and picks made to turn the franchise into one of promise. People aren't realizing how bad the outlook was before he got here. The 76ers were a 34-win team and their best player was often injured Jrue Holliday. They had traded their 2014 first rd pick for Arnette Moultrie (disaster) and their 2017 first rd pick for Andrew Bynum (disaster).

They had an injury laden season that netted them 34 wins, prior to that they were a .500+ club.

Nobody is saying every one of his moves were bad. But his ROY was a bad pick, not a great one in disguise as you seem to believe. He turned it into something good so he deserves credit but it was still an obvious bad pick, even at the time.

His insistence that you could take any one and teach him to shoot has bit him in the butt a couple of times. And his decision to ignore medical evaluations has also cost them. Throw in the fact that he doesn't understand that you can't draft 20 players at the same position and you have the explanation for the mess they've been.

Had Hinkie been the respected consultant and JC the GM all along, that team would be a real player today. As it is, Embiid gives them a chance but again, he's an incredible injury risk.

 

[GatorAZ]

They had an injury laden season that netted them 34 wins, prior to that they were a .500+ club.

That is exactly why it needed to be torn down. A .500 caliber team in a horrible eastern conference. Their best player was Holliday who hasn't played a full season since. They shipped off first rd picks for Arnette Moultrie and Andrew Bynum and had nothing to look forward to. That team was significantly worse than the Sonics team Presti blew up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That is exactly why it needed to be torn down. A .500 caliber team in a horrible eastern conference. Their best player was Holliday who hasn't played a full season since. They shipped off first rd picks for Arnette Moultrie and Andrew Bynum and had nothing to look forward to. That team was significantly worse than the Sonics team Presti blew up.

I'm not necessarily against tearing it down, I'm against the way he did it. T Young, for example, had quite a bit of interest throughout the league until he cleared the books of all the talent and left him standing out there alone. Even Hawes had his supporters.

He put the ball in the hands of a bad rookie and said let's win ROY with him and it destroyed the value of every player on that roster. And don't even suggest that was the idea of the coach, that's a pretty smart guy there. He understood they were tanking and he was fine with going that way. I'd have done the same thing if I had that roster but I'd have never drafted that guy in the first round.

I think, taken as a whole, he did an okay job with this aspect of GMing. But he alienated every one he dealt with and that bridge burning with agents and other GMs was unnecessary and sure to haunt the organization for years to come if he'd continued with his free rein.