Suns moving up to #13 pick?

SunsTzu

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pokerface said:
So I guees the 1995 draft where we got Finley in the 20's was another banner draft....In that actual draft we also had the #21 pick (a pick we also received from the Lakers) and 27th pick....We got Finley and Mario Bennet.

Not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did the '95 draft have some good talent? Yep. Was the '95 draft as good as the '96? Nope. Are there normally good players available in the 20s and after? Yep. Does any of this explain why the coach/gm would want to trade a guy that keeps improving and he expects to have and expanded role when the other team is willing to do the trade without him? Nope.
 
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SunsTzu said:
Not sure what this is supposed to mean. Did the '95 draft have some good talent? Yep. Was the '95 draft as good as the '96? Nope. Are there normally good players available in the 20s and after? Yep. Does any of this explain why the coach/gm would want to trade a guy that keeps improving and he expects to have and expanded role when the other team is willing to do the trade without him? Nope.


Dude I'm done talking to you....I think a good player can be had at #13 in this draft. Maybe you need to read the other thread where there is a good draft article about this draft.
 

slinslin

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Carney and Williams both would be terrific fits on the Suns.

If we could move up to get one of them at #13 I'd be happy. If we can get another pick to geth both of them I would jump out of my seat on draft day.
 

SunsTzu

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I think a good player could be had at 13 too. I just don't think the player at 13 will help the Suns next year as much as LB. You criticize me for proclaiming to prdict the future in saying that, yet you're doing the same thing in thinking there'll be someone better than him there.

You said I claimed to know more than the scouts because I wouldn't trade LB for the 13th pick, when in fact there is no evidence any of the scouts think anyone at that point will have a bigger impact than LB next year. Yet you're willingness to trade LB contridicts what D'Antoni has said.

Lastly you have given no reason why the Suns should give the Sixers LB just because they asked for him, when the spreader of this rumor stats they'd be willing to do the trade even if Barbosa was not involved.
 
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slinslin said:
Carney and Williams both would be terrific fits on the Suns.

If we could move up to get one of them at #13 I'd be happy. If we can get another pick to geth both of them I would jump out of my seat on draft day.


The question is what would you give up to get that accomplished.

Would both picks this year plus the atlanta pick be enough...probably not. Maybe if LB was thown in too. Lets say the #27 and LB got us the 13 pick...then we used the Atlanta pick + #21 pick to crack the top 10 somehow? Seems possible but I dont know...Depends how valuable teams view the Atlanta pick and how strongly they want to be in the next draft.
 

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SunsTzu, do you remember when/where you saw Coach Mike say that he expected Barbosa to play a bigger role next year? I seem to remember him talking about getting Steve Nash more rest, but I don't remember him saying that it would be Barbosa providing that relief.

I'm not doubting it was said. I'm just wondering if you are remembering something from last summer or before the playoffs perhaps. Supposedly Barbosa had such a great year because they played him at shooting guard a good part of the time. He did not make GREAT improvement in his point guard skills.

Please note that I'm in agreement with you regarding trading Barbosa for the #13. First of all, as you've pointed out many times, a little blurb does not say that the Phoenix Suns are actually willing to give the 76ers Barbosa. It just says that's what the 76ers would like. I also think they are very, very unlikely to get something at #13 that helps them as much as Barbosa will next year.

I'm not against trading Barbosa, but I think it should be for a deal that makes them that her next season.

Joe Mama
 

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From Chad Ford this morning--this is the whole article, with #13 info bolded--I think the idea we'd trade Barbosa for almost any pick in this draft not in the mid lottery or higher is nonsensical, since we need guys ready to contribute now--and with us apparently trying to get a big makes me think we're moving KT, because w/ Amare coming back there's only about 10-15 minutes per night for a center anyway.

Update: More on Roy and Thomasposted: Saturday, June 24, 2006

Tyrus Thomas met with Rockets officials in Houston on Friday. On Saturday, Brandon Roy is flying into town for a workout.

That's interesting news for a team slated to draft No. 8 -- well below where both players are projected to go.

It's especially interesting for Roy, considering his agent, Arn Tellem, told us on Thursday that Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge were shutting down the rest of their workouts because, Tellem said, he was "very comfortable where they're going in the draft."

Asked if that meant that a specific team had committed to taking them, Tellem said, "I know where they're going, yes."

Why the reversal? Or is it a reversal at all?

Insider first reported on Thursday that there has been talk of Houston's moving up a few spots in the draft to No. 5 or No. 6 in exchange for Luther Head and the No. 8 pick.

Roy was caught by a reporter from the Seattle Times in the airport late Thursday and basically confirmed the story.

"It's kind of a last-minute decision,'' Roy said. "[Houston] is trying to work a trade to get into the top five or six and they want to see me one last time.''

It's easy to see why Tellem would want Roy in Houston -- even if it means slipping a few spots in the draft.

The Rockets have a need, and the team should be a winner if Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming stay healthy. The fact that McGrady is also a client of Tellem, who would like to help T-Mac win a title, is also a factor.

Friday evening, I talked to a Rockets source, who confirmed they have been trying to move up in the draft.

"We've talked to teams about moving up, down and out of the draft completely," the source told me. "Would we like to move up to grab a guy like Thomas or Roy? Sure. I'm just not sure if it's going to be possible."

So were the Rockets the team that made a promise to Roy?

"We don't do promises," the source said. "We just don't believe in them."

Even if true, that doesn't mean that Tellem and the Rockets aren't trying to make something happen.

But if it does, we probably won't know about it until the draft begins and we find out if Roy is available at No. 5 or No. 6.

To confuse matters even more, the Rockets may not be the only team that Roy works out for before the draft. Roy also said there was a chance he may still make a trip to Toronto because, "My agent seems to think they want me more at three or four and trading their No. 1 pick."

How does Thomas fit into the picture? Doesn't the team already have a similar LSU product, Stromile Swift?

He might have come to Houston to cover his bases should the Chicago Bulls decide not to take him at No. 2. With his minimal workout schedule, Thomas has been seen by only three teams -- the Bulls, the Blazers and the Raptors. And the Bulls are the only team that has actually worked him out. The Blazers and Raptors did see Thomas work out in Orlando, but it was a workout run by his agent.

• Word is that the 76ers are in love with Memphis small forward Shawne Williams and are considering drafting him at No. 13. However, it's likely that Williams will be available later in the draft, leading to a lot of discussion the last few days about the Sixers moving down in the draft.

Two teams they might want to deal with are Phoenix and New Jersey.

The Suns and the Nets have multiple picks and are trying hard to move up in the draft. Both teams are looking for a big man in the draft and aren't sure the player they want will be there when they draft at No. 21 and No. 22, respectively.

It will be interesting to see if a bidding war erupts between the two teams. The Suns have No. 21 and No. 27. The Nets have No. 22 and No. 23.

If the Sixers make a deal with the Nets, the Suns could, theoretically, take Williams. He'd be a great fit in Phoenix. But then again, just about every athletic player in the draft looks like he could play for the Suns.


• The Celtics may be the most difficult team in the draft to read. They've worked out just about everyone and have given lots of confusing signals about what they're doing.

Point guard being an obvious need, the Celtics have a big workout scheduled on Monday with Marcus Williams, Rajon Rondo, Randy Foye and Jordan Farmar.

However, they may go a completely different direction. The latest two names we hear attached to the Celtics are Ronnie Brewer (who is working out very well at every stop) and Cedric Simmons.

• We've heard a lot of feedback around the league about our last mock draft and we'll be making some pretty major changes soon. Look for version 4.0, this time with the second round included, on Monday.
 

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slinslin said:
Carney and Williams both would be terrific fits on the Suns.

If we could move up to get one of them at #13 I'd be happy. If we can get another pick to geth both of them I would jump out of my seat on draft day.

If we had to choose, I would take carney. I spent a lot of this year watching Memphis games since I live here. Williams is talented, but Carney seems to be more rounded, although a little shorter. Carney and Williams can both shoot well but Carney's shot looks better at this point.

Carney seems to be able to score on his own better and he loves to go on the fast break.

If you have any more specific questions about their games, I can give you some first hand thoughts.
 

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I don't mean Shawne Williams, I mean Marcus Williams. I'd prefer Williams. I would target #12 from New Orleans and JR Smith since getting Smith would be about the same as getting Carney.
I don't want Shawne Williams at all. :)
 

boisesuns

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slinslin said:
I don't mean Shawne Williams, I mean Marcus Williams. I'd prefer Williams. I would target #12 from New Orleans and JR Smith since getting Smith would be about the same as getting Carney.
I don't want Shawne Williams at all. :)

Ahh, my bad:)

I haven't seen him much. Isn't JR Smith just a dunker mostly? Carney is smart and a pretty well rounded player with a good jumpshot.

I think Shawne Williams will be a decent NBA player, but not a huge star.
 

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LB is well worth the 13th pick ALONE. Also, trading a proven Vet who's done very well is a bad idea. He's come into his own and proven his value. Trading for a rook is crazy talk.
 

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F-Dog said:
How many years do you think the Suns were a contender? :lol:

Just for you, I went to database Basketball for a little research. On the championship-winning teams from the last twenty years, I could only find two rookies playing significant roles--Cassell and Manu Ginobili.

The other players you named were at least second-year players in the years their teams won championships. :shrug:

Uh, when did the discussion go from contending teams, you know - based on your statement: "Historically, there's no place for rookies on a CONTENDING team"... to championship teams? Was it when I proved you wrong? Is that why you put the confused icon up there? Are you confused because you changed your own criteria to try to prove you were right? That's good debating skills there...
 
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George O'Brien

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I'd be more interested in knowing how many rookies made a difference on championship teams that weren't in the top three in the draft. For example, the Celtics won 80-81 with Kevin McHale as their first pick at #3.

Of course that team also had Bird, Parrish, Maxwell, Archibald, and the ever popular Rick Roby.
 
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George O'Brien said:
I'd be more interested in knowing how many rookies made a difference on championship teams that weren't in the top three in the draft. For example, the Celtics won 80-81 with Kevin McHale as their first pick at #3.

Of course that team also had Bird, Parrish, Maxwell, Archibald, and the ever popular Rick Roby.

Gawd....LB is a BACKUP TWEENER. You guys make him sound like a core player...LOL. I'd rather we use LB in trade then have to resign his tweener butt.
 

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He may be a backup tweener but he is also the sixth or seventh man, including being the first guard off the bench, on the team last year; in my mind that makes him part of the core.
 

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pokerface said:
Gawd....LB is a BACKUP TWEENER. You guys make him sound like a core player...LOL. I'd rather we use LB in trade then have to resign his tweener butt.

Basketball is about matchups and roles. LB will play a very key role on the Suns when Amare isn't in the game. He's the only other player who can get to the basket against anyone playing him tight and yet is a fairly good three point shooter.

When Amare is not in the game, there is a real risk that the other team will simply play the shooters. To counter that, the Suns need more than just Boris with the ability to get to the basket.

Maybe Leandro can be replaced, but that remains to be seen. If the Suns take a Shannon Brown or Diaz, that would suggest they will move Leandro. If they don't, he would be missed.
 
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George O'Brien said:
Basketball is about matchups and roles. LB will play a very key role on the Suns when Amare isn't in the game. He's the only other player who can get to the basket against anyone playing him tight and yet is a fairly good three point shooter.

When Amare is not in the game, there is a real risk that the other team will simply play the shooters. To counter that, the Suns need more than just Boris with the ability to get to the basket.

Maybe Leandro can be replaced, but that remains to be seen. If the Suns take a Shannon Brown or Diaz, that would suggest they will move Leandro. If they don't, he would be missed.


Basketball is also about guys that can play a position. 6'3 shooting guards shouldn't be a priority in resigning when we have guys like Diaw who can play multiple positions.

If we can move up in this draft and get a PG or C that will carry us into the future then we shouldnt pass that up. Yes LB can help us now but so can the rest of our talented team...that plus a high draft pick and a free agent (maybe resigning TT) and Amare coming back. LB is a nice luxery but a necessity?....umm no.
 

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George O'Brien said:
Basketball is about matchups and roles. LB will play a very key role on the Suns when Amare isn't in the game. He's the only other player who can get to the basket against anyone playing him tight and yet is a fairly good three point shooter.

When Amare is not in the game, there is a real risk that the other team will simply play the shooters. To counter that, the Suns need more than just Boris with the ability to get to the basket.

Maybe Leandro can be replaced, but that remains to be seen. If the Suns take a Shannon Brown or Diaz, that would suggest they will move Leandro. If they don't, he would be missed.

If he wasn't palming the ball so much and could absorb contact better you would be right.

As of now he is only taking it to the basket on defensive screwups or transition plays.
 
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slinslin said:
If he wasn't palming the ball so much and could absorb contact better you would be right.

As of now he is only taking it to the basket on defensive screwups or transition plays.


Thats the thing....LB is only real good part of the time. Sometimes he makes you go WOW but a lot of the other times he still looks like a rookie. You would think he would learn by now to dribble and fastbreak with his head UP like Nash.
 

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pokerface said:
Thats the thing....LB is only real good part of the time. Sometimes he makes you go WOW but a lot of the other times he still looks like a rookie. You would think he would learn by now to dribble and fastbreak with his head UP like Nash.


That's why Leandro Barbosa is a role player. He still a significant part of the team. They need him or someone to replace him if they are going to make a run in a championship next year. If they trade him for a draft pick a better be very confident in that player.

Joe
 
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Joe Mama said:
That's why Leandro Barbosa is a role player. He still a significant part of the team. They need him or someone to replace him if they are going to make a run in a championship next year. If they trade him for a draft pick a better be very confident in that player.

Joe

I agree with that. I dont hate Barbosa its just that I like Diaw more.


I think we might be able to draft high enough to get someone to contribute right now which may or may not involve LB. I'm not going to cry either direction we go.
 

George O'Brien

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Joe Mama said:
That's why Leandro Barbosa is a role player. He still a significant part of the team. They need him or someone to replace him if they are going to make a run in a championship next year. If they trade him for a draft pick a better be very confident in that player.

Joe
I've never understood why so many people feel a need to dump on Leandro.
Coming into the NBA, Leandro had about as much preparation as a typcial HS player. IMHO he has continued to improved in all aspects of his game and is just now emerging as an impact player.

However, I'm not sure how much to pay. It think the Suns will offer him a deal roughly the size of what they gave James Jones and then wait to see what kind of offers he gets next summer. Doing a "sign and trade" at that point is not a bad option.
 
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George O'Brien said:
I've never understood why so many people feel a need to dump on Leandro.
Coming into the NBA, Leandro had about as much preparation as a typcial HS player. IMHO he has continued to improved in all aspects of his game and is just now emerging as an impact player.


Dump on Leandro? Where are you getting that George? He's not a PG and thats the main reason he was brought in. Now years later he still doesnt look much like a pg. Thats not dogging him thats just being factual. Diaw looks much more like a pg than LB. OK Barbosa has some other qualitites that are good but we're approaching the time next season where money decisions have to be made and what our priorities are. Is LB worth keeping and paying for and over who?
 

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pokerface said:
Dump on Leandro? Where are you getting that George? He's not a PG and thats the main reason he was brought in. Now years later he still doesnt look much like a pg. Thats not dogging him thats just being factual. Diaw looks much more like a pg than LB. OK Barbosa has some other qualitites that are good but we're approaching the time next season where money decisions have to be made and what our priorities are. Is LB worth keeping and paying for and over who?
[FONT=&quot]double post[/FONT]
 

Treesquid PhD

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pokerface said:
Dump on Leandro? Where are you getting that George? He's not a PG and thats the main reason he was brought in. Now years later he still doesnt look much like a pg. Thats not dogging him thats just being factual. Diaw looks much more like a pg than LB. OK Barbosa has some other qualitites that are good but we're approaching the time next season where money decisions have to be made and what our priorities are. Is LB worth keeping and paying for and over who?
I don't understand why you feel its Barbosa or Diaw, it's not either or. Likely KT or one of the other players who have proved to be unreliable and old will be shipped out. My guess is that this is and will remain the Suns way of doing things.

I'll give Sarver credit for one thing he says this is a game about entertainment, he wants to win I guess but also wants to entertain the masses, he knows that Jerry reshaped the league with his rule changes in 2001. He won't push a boring style of game like big ball center backing down people unless it's a sure fire way to the championship, even the biggest fans of this style have to concede that 99% of all the centers drafted are anything but sure fire.

The big ball mid 1990s era is over. The future is players like Barbosa and Marion. Shaq style ball is a dying breed hopefully from my point of view extinct. It had its chance and failed to bring in the masses and in fact, led to a mass decline in the sport's viewer base. The Suns are leading the way in this revolutionary style, centers for the most part are garbage players and their value will continue to decline over the next decade as only a small select few will be dominant contributors to championship teams. Look around, read the rules it's obvious that a center to lead the Suns is not the future
 
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