Suns sign Dragic... really.

Cheesebeef

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The ol' 50-and-fade. Win at home, don't embarrass yourself on the road and make an appearance in the playoffs. As long as the turnstyles kept turning.

the above implies Colangelo just didn't care about winning and only cared about $, which honestly, is... I don't know any other way to put this... one of the dumbest things I've ever seen anyone ever say about anything.

anyone who saw JC's face after Game 4 of the Spurs series when he knew Amare and Boris were going to be suspended or see what he did for the D-backs, bankrupting that team and pretty much putting himself in a position where he knew he would eventually be pushed all to win a single title, not to mention what he's done for Team USA Basketball knows that only one thing truly motivates that guy - winning it all.
 

Mainstreet

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Why do things have to be all or nothing? Four examples over the better part of 40 years is not a legitimate alibi for the Suns long history of being regarded as a finesse team.

Why? Because JC brought a college coach from Oklahoma, who brought his 212 lb. Center, and it lasted for a decade.

Actually it lasted longer than that, right through D'Antoni. Power Forwards covering Center. Small Forwards covering Power Forward. Three Guards on the court.

Talk about a domino effect. And what was the outcome, over and over?

The ol' 50-and-fade. Win at home, don't embarrass yourself on the road and make an appearance in the playoffs. As long as the turnstyles kept turning.

Do you know who exposed it? Jerry Colangelo himself.

Just as Utah gets away with 50-and-fade, with the Jazz as the only game in town, so did the Suns.

Until Jerry introduced the D'backs, then we became a 4-Major-League-team city. Then there was competition for the Valley's entertainment dollars.

How ironic that Jerry was the indirect catalyst after being the status quo for so long.

I believe all of this sincerely, just as I have since first rooting for the Suns in 1970, 38 years ago. I don't expect everyone else to.

:bang:

You sure leave out a lot of history and put in a package that supports your beliefs. It reminds of a quote by Simon and Garfunkel:

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest."

When Jerry had some bad teams (not winning teams) he vowed to the fans, if I can't put a winning team on the court, at least I will put an exciting team on the court. He did this as an open appeal to the fans desire to see exciting basketball. JC was never a happy fifty and fade owner although when Phoenix was a small market, it certainly put limitations on what he could do financially.
 

Cheesebeef

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:bang:

You sure leave out a lot of history and put in a package that supports your beliefs. It reminds of a quote by Simon and Garfunkel:

"Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest."

When Jerry had some bad teams (not winning teams) he vowed to the fans, if I can't put a winning team on the court, at least I will put an exciting team on the court. He did this as an open appeal to the fans desire to see exciting basketball. JC was never a happy fifty and fade owner although when Phoenix was a small market, it certainly put limitations on what he could do financially.

agreed and to go further, Jerry even gave the finger to the small market limitations. I mean, in the summer of 1993, we just came off the Finals loss, it looked like we needed to get a little tougher and what did we do? We signed the best FA on the market A.C. Green (who was a very good defensive player and rebounder) to a one year deal, with the promise we'd pay him more come hell or high water the next year. And then, after we lost that season, what did Jerry do? Was he okay with another 50 plus win season and out? No, he signed the BEST FA on the market AGAIN (Danny Manning) to a one year deal with the promise for a big contract once we got his Bird Rights the next off-season. It was actually Jerry's desire to win a title (at any cost... literally, considering he even kept his word giving Manning that contract even though he blew out his knee in the middle of the season where we were on pace for 64 wins) and circumvent the salary cap rules that made the NBA change those rules and not allow the one year deal to get Bird rights anymore. Getting A.C. Green wasn't about putting butts in the seats. It was about trying to get that missing piece for a title. Then getting Manning was the same thing.
 

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As a long time SUNS fan i can understand both views.
I will not fault JC for what he's done for the SUNS over the years(and yes....he wanted to win in the worst way), but the small-ball offensive philosophy has been in place for some time and i believe that we may have turned the corner on that.
We'll see. Its going to take more than a one season microcosm(spelling?) to be sure.
 

mojorizen7

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Getting A.C. Green wasn't about putting butts in the seats. It was about trying to get that missing piece for a title. Then getting Manning was the same thing.
Agree.
Unfortunately we also had the Wayman Tisdale and Tom Gugliotta aquisition's(each of whom couldn't defend a post) but your point is spot on.
 

cly2tw

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Collangelo did not win a title in NBA, did he? Let's just cut Kerr some slack before he copied Collangelo on that feat!;)
 

Cheesebeef

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Agree.
Unfortunately we also had the Wayman Tisdale and Tom Gugliotta aquisition's(each of whom couldn't defend a post) but your point is spot on.

The Tisdale acquisition was gravy, getting him the same year as Manning and as far as Googs, the 98 lockout completely killed JC's plan. All the talk all season was that our big three was going to be Kidd, McDyess and Pippen and that team would have been a defensive dynamo with those two guys on the perimeter and McDyess to be a low-post defender. However, the lockout came to pass, everything fell apart and Jerry panicked, making the worst moves he possibly could. But even then, he tried to sign a guy who was touted as a defensive C on a title winning team (even though I thought the Longley move was horrible).

Hell, Jerry even broke up his most popular team ever and got rid of one of the most beloved Suns of all time to try and get a C when he traded Majerle for Hot Rod. Jerry continually tried to get a C here, but they don't grow on trees and you've got to have a lot of luck or $, Jerry West and Hollywood to get one.

Over and over again Jerry tried to do whatever he could (Hot Rod, Bedford, Longley) or missed out by a pick for HOFers or did under the table deals to try and win a title.
 

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I think it is something of a myth that the Suns always preferred small ball. Look at their drafting over the last 20 years when they took Bedford, Gilliams, Andrew Lang, Vanos, Anthony Cook, Jayson Williams (never played for the Suns), Oliver Miller, Malcolm Mackey, Mario Bennett, Ben Davis, Jake Tsakalidis, Alton Ford, and so on. The Colangelos were constantly trying to get big men.

What was there problem? I have no idea. You'd think just by accident they'd draft a good one. It's not like they didn't know how to use them, they just didn't find anybody who could do much. Oliver Miller ate himself out of basketball and Big Jake bounced around for a few years.


The most successful of the guys the Suns drafted was Jayson Williams. I don't know the story, but his rights were traded for a future first round pick. He eventually got into big trouble when he shot a limo driver, but that was years later after retiring due to injuries.
 

leclerc

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Some good old and fun talk here.

Again, welcome Dragic! :)
 

Covert Rain

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I'm sorry, but you make it seem like JC lost coin flips to Kareem and David Robinson on purpose. Most teams aren't in the position to get the number one pick (at least you hope they aren't and when they are, none of them got screwed by fate like we twice in losing out on Kareem and Robinson. And it's not like they didn't try drafting a big when they got the chance (William Bedford) or turned down the opportunity to get one (Dikembe who they thought they had traded for in the Barkley deal before the commish put the kabosh on the trade.)

I agree Cheese. JC as being the one that held back the Suns is total and complete crap. That guy made lots of move to try and get this team to win. You have to have the right players, the right coach, at the right time and little luck on your side. JC was a good GM and good owner. I would rather have a GM/Owner who takes risk and tries to win that most of the GM/Owners in the league that only care about the bottom line.

Ofcourse he made mistakes but so does 31 other owners every year that their teams don't win the title.
 
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YouJustGotSUNSD

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from AZCentral

Last week, Goran Dragic went through the first few days of Tau Ceramica's camp not knowing whether he was on the Spanish club for good or if his wish to join the Suns would be granted.
On Tuesday, he passed a Suns physical exam, played basketball and made dinner plans with new teammate Boris Diaw and saw his name over a Suns locker. He's still wiping away the pixie dust.
Dragic is only an unofficial member of the Suns because intricacies of his Tau buyout may take four weeks to wrap up. Nevertheless, Dragic was in "paradise" when he talked Tuesday about joining the Suns, even if it was just a lunch visit to the downtown.

"This is like my dream come true," said the 22-year-old Slovenian point guard, who is daydreaming a night after a 14-hour trip to Phoenix. "I'm the happiest man on Earth now."
It is an unreal experience for Dragic, who was watching Suns star Steve Nash in awe during games shown at 4 a.m. last season in Slovenia. Now, the Suns pledge to make Dragic an immediate backup and eventual Nash successor.
"I can't believe I'm on the same team with him," Dragic said. "I'm really blessed. This is my next step. I must practice hard in hopes I can replace Steve Nash in the future."

Dragic said he never wavered from a desire to join the Suns from the time he came to Phoenix for a secret workout June 22. The Suns maneuvered to draft him 45th four days later, setting off seven weeks of buyout negotiation - and consternation.
Dragic was cleared to go to Phoenix last week but had nobody to high five in an empty room at Tau's camp. Prior to that, he was "nervous" that his NBA dream would remain just that.
Now, in spite of expectations for him to immediately be a playmaker in the rotation, Dragic does not talk like a nervous man. He is certain he can live up to such hopes.
"I like to play the fast basketball you see in the NBA," said Dragic, who idolized Allen Iverson, Michael Jordan and Nash. "I must gain a little bit of weight but, with hard work and great players like Steve Nash, I can learn a lot of things.
"I admire Steve Nash. I want to play like him, but it's not possible because I play different basketball. He can help me a lot. I must practice hard to become one of the best players in the NBA."
Dragic believes his defense and passing can pay immediate dividends and hopes to develop his perimeter shooting, ballhandling and knowledge.
He will sign a contract similar to Suns first-round pick Robin Lopez's four-year, $6.75 million deal, except he will have three guaranteed years as opposed to Lopez's two. He also will have to pay at least $1 million to Tau for his buyout.
"Because this is my dream," Dragic said of why he sacrificed most of his rookie salary. "Now, I have this opportunity. My dream comes true. When I was a kid, I woke up at 3 or 4 in the morning to watch NBA games. I practiced a lot to become a player who could someday play in the NBA. My dream has come true in Phoenix."
 

BC867

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the above implies Colangelo just didn't care about winning and only cared about $, which honestly, is... I don't know any other way to put this... one of the dumbest things I've ever seen anyone ever say about anything.
Your disagreement is noted.

But ask yourself a question. During the tenures of John MacLeod (for all of us who lived through it, night after night, year after year) and Mike D'Antoni, how many Power Forwards had to cover the Center position on the Suns, diminishing their potential and putting the team a step behind?

Championships in 40 years = zero. Finals in 40 years = 2 (one legit and one Cinderella).

Post-season eliminations because we had, for example, a Power Forward, a Small Forward and three Guards on the floor = too many.

Inserting Kurt Thomas into the lineup as Center in Game 2 vs. the Spurs (expectinging that a desperation, makeshift lineup with no preparation would prevail in the playoffs) = typical.

That, to me, is "dumb". Covering it up with the good things that Jerry did = priceless. Starting your post by "implying" what I said = unnecessary.

Disagree with me, fine. But understand that we all have our opinions. And mine is based on 38 years of putting my heart into rooting for the Suns.

And I'm thrilled that we've finally turned the corner. Bravo to Steve Kerr and Terry Porter.
 
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Irish

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Your disagreement is noted.

But ask yourself a question. During the tenures of John MacLeod (for all of us who lived through it, night after night, year after year) and Mike D'Antoni, how many Power Forwards had to cover the Center position on the Suns, diminishing their potential and putting the team a step behind?

Championships in 40 years = zero. Finals in 40 years = 2 (one legit and one Cinderella).

Post-season eliminations because we had, for example, a Power Forward, a Small Forward and three Guards on the floor = too many.

Inserting Kurt Thomas into the lineup as Center in Game 2 vs. the Spurs (expectinging that a desperation, makeshift lineup with no preparation would prevail in the playoffs) = typical.

That, to me, is "dumb". Covering it up with the good things that Jerry did = priceless. Starting your post by "implying" what I said = unnecessary.

Disagree with me, fine. But understand that we all have our opinions. And mine is based on 38 years of putting my heart into rooting for the Suns.

And I'm thrilled that we've finally turned the corner. Bravo to Steve Kerr and Terry Porter.

Trading for quality big men is always expensive and a flub can really hurt the team (such as for Hot Rod). The number of all star centers not taken in the top ten in the draft is pretty low. The case for tanking for a few years is that it can avoid the trap the Suns have of drafting late in the first round when the obvious bigs are already taken.

Will the fans support this team if they aren't any good? It didn't look like it. But being really crappy is the best way to draft top players. IMHO, the Suns are a victim of their own moderate success.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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Our success is well above average, not even close to moderate. Like, 10 teams have won a title in the last 20 years? The suns are well above average, but not in the top tier.
 

YouJustGotSUNSD

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the guy is quality,he will be top 5 pg in the league within 3 years.
This is silly to predict, just as silly as those predicting bust.

I demand everyone to join the majority in the "cautious optimism" section. It's free of charge and you won't feel silly.
 

shazaam6

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There are so many variables, but I like the highlights. He is agressive. Who knows what Nash can teach him, he has more athleticism than Nash had to work with.

I think the older vets Nash, Shaq, and Hill would like to pass on some wisdom and skill to the younger guys and watch them use it.

Kinda like the "young bull, old bull" story only on the basketball court, not necessarily on the nighclub scene.
 

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This is silly to predict, just as silly as those predicting bust.

I demand everyone to join the majority in the "cautious optimism" section. It's free of charge and you won't feel silly.

what is silly is to join the majority in the "cautious optimism" section,buddy.you know he'll learn a lot from nash,and when he has confidence,he will be a star.i follow euroleague,i know he'll be good.

when ginobili came to nba,a lot didn't know him but we ve seen him in maccabi and benetton,we knew he'd be good.
 

arwillan

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what is silly is to join the majority in the "cautious optimism" section,buddy.you know he'll learn a lot from nash,and when he has confidence,he will be a star.i follow euroleague,i know he'll be good.

when ginobili came to nba,a lot didn't know him but we ve seen him in maccabi and benetton,we knew he'd be good.


nash's best attributes just can't be taught. barbosa apparently hasn't learned much of anything from him. It's like asking einstein to tutor a 4th grader. It isn't as easy as it might seem.

Dragic is a flawed player. He shot the 3 incredibly poorly in europe, and it's even tougher to do here with the extended line. He'll have to somehow turn that around to even have a shot of being a good player. He was a backup point guard in europe for a reason.
 

passenger

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nash's best attributes just can't be taught. barbosa apparently hasn't learned much of anything from him. It's like asking einstein to tutor a 4th grader. It isn't as easy as it might seem.

Dragic is a flawed player. He shot the 3 incredibly poorly in europe, and it's even tougher to do here with the extended line. He'll have to somehow turn that around to even have a shot of being a good player. He was a backup point guard in europe for a reason.

to me,nash is the best pg ever with stockton and the best passer ever.nash is 35 and he wasnt as good as dragic when he was dragic's age.dragic is only 21,and already has some better features than nash.defense,steals,ability to go straight to the rim,and i know he has courage and not nervous to play in nba.i just want him to get his minutes this year.
 

cly2tw

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to me,nash is the best pg ever with stockton and the best passer ever.nash is 35 and he wasnt as good as dragic when he was dragic's age.dragic is only 21,and already has some better features than nash.defense,steals,ability to go straight to the rim,and i know he has courage and not nervous to play in nba.i just want him to get his minutes this year.

That's the reason why they'd take all the trouble to get him on the team now. Nash has supposedly been optimizing on his moves every year since in the NBA. So, if Dragic could get this attituded by studying Nash closeby, he might have a great future.
 

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to me,nash is the best pg ever with stockton and the best passer ever.

Best PG ever? I doubt it, although he's not too far off the pace. But I would suggest that Oscar and Magic set the standard.

Look up what Oscar Robertson did in his career (he played during a period when when the criteria for assists was more restrictive but he averaged 9.5 apg while averaging 25.7 ppg on 48.5% before the three. He also averaged 7.5 rpg as a PG.

Magic Johnson averaged 11.2 apg, 19.5 ppg on 52.0% shooting and 7.2 rpg during a period with more athletes.
 

95pro

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Best PG ever? I doubt it, although he's not too far off the pace. But I would suggest that Oscar and Magic set the standard.

Look up what Oscar Robertson did in his career (he played during a period when when the criteria for assists was more restrictive but he averaged 9.5 apg while averaging 25.7 ppg on 48.5% before the three. He also averaged 7.5 rpg as a PG.

Magic Johnson averaged 11.2 apg, 19.5 ppg on 52.0% shooting and 7.2 rpg during a period with more athletes.
and an era with no defense. An era where run & gun was the the style.

i'd think nash would pass those #'s if he played in magic's days, except for the rebounding.lol


cant wait for the season to start. go suns!
 

mojorizen7

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I'm too young to mention O. Robertson,Pistol Pete Maravich,Cousy and so on so....
IMO
Magic Johnson
6' 9"
Could do anything with the ball that these guys could......and then some.
Rebound,score,defend guards,defend forwards, lead by example as well as vocally ,etc...
Magic did have some trouble with KJ though;)
All-Time Leaders - Assists


Points | Rebounds | Assists | Steals | Blocks


Assist Leaders
PLAYER AMT
John Stockton 15,806
Mark Jackson 10,334
Magic Johnson 10,141
Oscar Robertson 9,887
JASON KIDD 9,497
Isiah Thomas 9,061
Gary Payton 8,966
Rod Strickland 7,987
Maurice Cheeks 7,392
Len Wilkens 7,211
Terry Porter 7,160
Tim Hardaway 7,095
Bob Cousy 6,955
Guy Rodgers 6,917
STEVE NASH 6,788
Muggsy Bogues 6,726
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/alltime/leaders?cat=assists
 

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