Suns Trade Half the team.

[AzStevenCal]

I hate to say it, but Ennis reminded me of Kendall Marshall with his lack of athleticism and poor jump shot. Of course I was hoping for better.

Ennis is a little quicker, has a little better jump shot and a much better work ethic (as first year players). I agree they are similar though. They both have excellent court sense and vision, great passing skills and they love to set up their teammates. I'd give Ennis a slight edge but Marshall is physically stronger and can play through contact so I wouldn't be shocked to see similar careers for them.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Even if they make additions I don't see how that Lakers make playoffs. I think that pick will be worst scenario #8-#12.

I don't think they make the playoffs either but I think their pick at best would fall in the 8 to 12 range. They have enough space and enough drawing power to bring in a playoff contending team but I think it will likely take them a season or two to get there. I still wish we hadn't given up their pick but I understand their reasoning.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Ennis is a little quicker, has a little better jump shot and a much better work ethic (as first year players). I agree they are similar though. They both have excellent court sense and vision, great passing skills and they love to set up their teammates. I'd give Ennis a slight edge but Marshall is physically stronger and can play through contact so I wouldn't be shocked to see similar careers for them.

Steve

I think the Suns missed on the Ennis pick. Actually I wished the Suns had drafted Jusuf Nurkic in the 2014 draft with their first pick but Warren looks to be a good player. However, I think Bogdan Bogdanovic will be good as well. So as I look at it now, 2 out of 3 isn't bad.

 

[CardsFan88]

We were basically the 8th seed last year if not for a Bledsoe injury. Had we built on that we could be fighting for 6th seed this year with a better Len and Morris and possibly picking up Stoudemire off waivers. That’s team building with positive good will knowing we’re a year or two ahead of where we thought we’d be. Now we’re back to square one with big question marks surrounding our FO and their ability to manage a team.

But we weren't the 8th seed, and being the 8th seed means squat. How many 8th seeds have even made it to the 2nd round? Then if they do, how many make it to the third round, then after that how many go to finals, and how many win it? You have about the same shot as winning the Powerball. I don't like it, and I definitely would root for us and hope we win it, but if you are a GM you can't play that sort of hope-y kind of stuff. Especially when you are talking about the past like it's the future. You're confusing the two.

You see you are assuming way too much with this. Had this gone right and that gone right we might have gotten this guy. The problem is, it didn't happen, and thus the snowball effect never was an option to happen. It would of been great, but it didn't happen and we can't make future decisions based on things that never happened.

It annoys me people still go on about Dragic’s age – it’s just my view of course but he was the same age as Nash when we brought him here. Keep in mind Dragic had only really had 2 years of leading a team by himself, one with Beasley and Co where he averaged 14 and 7 and then last year when he averaged 20 and 6 while clearly bringing about an over achievement in the W-L record. He still has a ton of room to grow in other words. Again, just my opinion. Why we didn’t build on that is, effectively, stupidity, and we can blow the team up every year if we like, generate excitement amongst fans etc, but it’s not building. It’s starting over which is what we’re now doing again.

I understand that he isn't really old, but the fact is guys like Nash are a rarity. Players in their 30's of any sport decline physically, and it's up to their mental aspects to keep them going. It's not just about age, but also cap hit. Basically in the NBA unless you have a top team, you might as well just keep reloading. Because if you sign yourself up for the long term with guys who aren't getting any better, your team is not going to get any better. Thus timing is very important in the NBA. Once you sign your guys to big contracts and lose capspace, and you can't get a top pick, then you are stuck in the middle.

McD is churning the roster, and keeping us right before that point, where he is amassing talent and options and once he finds what we want...THEN we go over. Also don't mistake my comments about age to just be negative, it's more told from the perspective that upside when you are barely 23 is much more then someone closing in on 29. Dragic is not going to improve much, while Knight could still get a whole lot better. Remember how raw Dragic was at 23? See how much he grew? If Knight grows half that much he would be clearly much better then Dragic ever was. Overall we had a guy who would be exiting his prime right as our other guys are entering it. That's not ideal.

Again, we could easily be fighting for 6th seed this year and we lost Dragic, a far better plater than Knight. Reading about this guy I’m not exactly stoked with the acquisition even though he has some potential and if the lakers pick is 6th then we definitely didn’t profit. Saying we did in the first place seems a bit much.

But we aren't. Even 6th seed is crap. If you don't have homecourt, you aren't likely to win, and the only time you really have a shot to overcome that is if it's say 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 or 2 vs 3. I don't like this, but this is reality. This isn't college basketball march madness one win type situation. I don't bet, but if I wanted to make some easy money by betting I'd bet homefield in the playoffs across the board and win every year more then I'd lose.

You also forget that just because you have the 6th pick or even 1st, sometimes it doesn't matter. We did give up a potential for a good player, and we gave up likely a middle pick who might be a nobody or a decent player. The pick is only as good as who is available and what we would have selected. If there is a player we really want, and he turns out to be good, then we missed, but odds are both of those things aren't going to happen, and if they do, we buttress it against whatever Knight turns out to be.

So the real question is, when that pick comes up, who is available and are they better then Knight? Until then we didn't lose anything, and such a determination might still be years away...potentially 2017.

We have Knight now, and if he's not the guy, we can trade him for something as well. But we then had a chance to see if this guy works for us and still could get other picks or players for him. So we gave ourselves more chances to succeed at the expense of maybe missing out on the Lakers pick, which does have a shot to not being very good.

Heck there is a shot we end up with a better pick then the Lakers pick from trading Knight and even get to pick it BEFORE the Lakers pick even gets awarded to whoever we traded it to. That is a very real possibility that you are ignoring. At the same time we get to judge whether or not Knight fits.

As long as you don’t forget that we did it to Dragic first, and in a contract year no less. And the players did run the henhouse, that’s why we’re in this mess. If you think our FO can miraculously turn their (mis)management skills around then you’re more optimistic than I am.

Except you are missing some important points about this all. This hasn't been a long term situation. They started running the henhouse and McD shipped them out. You seem to want to blame McD for the actions and personalities of grown men. At some point it's not the teacher who is at fault, but the students who want to act like morons. We shipped them out, and didn't wait long. 1/2 a season for IT. Plumlee just getting demoted. Dragic going public 48 hours before. There's a fine line between being authoritarian and too lax.

As soon as the Suns saw that it got out of hand, they shipped them off. That's not mismanagement, that's actually good management. Some teams wait years. We didn't. I think you are assuming WAAAAYYY too much, and overlooking these basic facts. It's ok, it's not a big deal, but try to think of things like this, and as everyone already knows, with $arver, I'm always expecting him to somehow screw stuff up. In fact part of this still rests on him, since he was the one who anointed Dragic while McD, the actual GM, just firmly took control and made a different decision. Perhaps if $arver hadn't promised him the moon Dragic wouldn't of acted so unprofessionally.

They didn't really do ANYTHING to dragic. They simply added guys and this irked him. You can understand it causing frustration, but he acted like a total d-bag by airing the dirty laundry. Remember all we did FOR him, even signing his brother, but it's not like he's oppressed. You seem to be thinking that we massively wronged Dragic. We didn't. But Dragic did wrong us. Like I said it's partially understandable, but acting crazy is still acting crazy, and ultimately it was Dragic who decided on this course of action.

6th seed was a realistic aim for this season IMO and playoff experience is priceless. We’re miles away from even the 8th seed now. And we are banking on a miracle – that Knight and future picks is better than what we had (referring to last year’s team not this year’s mess). And that old chestnut about ‘asset accumulation’; didn’t that work out for us..

6th seed was a realistic aim, but it wasn't going to happen. As reality is playing itself out we're going to end up with 9th-10th most likely. What you don't understand is, this is true with Dragic, Plumlee, and IT as it is without. We were heading into a dead end. By now we should of figured out we didn't have enough talent to compete in the West. Changes have to be made. Should we have waited until after we gave all these guys their dream deals?

You keep assuming things that aren't going to happen into your equation. Taking the past for the future and it's all twisted. It doesn't work like that. I'm saying this with all due respect. It's complicated and stuff, so no problems. But your logic is faulty.

Knight and future picks IS better then Dragic leaving for nothing and not having these extra picks and our team getting bounced out of round 1 with the experience of losing in likely 5 games is not worth anything. It sounds like you keep thinking like we lost something special. We didn't.

You see Dragic was gone, and Plumlee was going to be. IT was unhappy. Good management realizes when things don't work out and is able to reclaim what they invested and even more. You keep talking about what we had as a sure thing, or it would of set up other things, but the key thing to understand is, we weren't going anywhere, winning the lottery is more likely the more tickets you have. Having more assets is better when someone comes available then not. Having more cap space is better then not. We were about to lose some of those tickets. Asset accumulation is better then going nowhere and the having asset depreciation or outright loss. It wasn't worth losing assets just for a shot to lose in the first round, and with OKC behind us, and who else the Pelicans???... we almost assuredly would of ended up 9th or 10th place had we stood pat.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think the Suns missed on the Ennis pick. Actually I wished the Suns had drafted Jusuf Nurkic in the 2014 draft with their first pick but Warren looks to be a good player. However, I think Bogdan Bogdanovic will be good as well. So as I look at it now, 2 out of 3 isn't bad.

I love the Warren pick now but as I recall it, I wanted Nurkic or Payne at our pick and McGary or Capela for the Ennis slot and then Stokes with our late pick. Looking back right now, I think Nurkic and Warren are the two best players of that group. So in hindsight, I think they did just fine with the draft. I have no idea what we have in BB, guess we'll start to find out when he comes over season after next if we haven't included him in a trade in the interim.

Steve

 

[BC867]

I challenge anyone to state in a few words what this franchise has been doing for the last five years in terms of having a clear plan or direction.

Trying to build revenue (draw fans) with pizazz. They failed.

Stepping down a notch to exaggerating small ball. They failed.

Replacing a hero ball-hog pretending to be a Point Guard with another one. Why would the results be any different?

Bottom line. The Suns management team knows only how to take stabs in the dark. They are hardly fit for the National Basketball Association.

Do they even realize that gutting half of the roster without changing philosophy is a loud admission of their incompetence?

Old saying -- practice makes perfect.

Better saying -- perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

As multiple sources are reporting that the Heat will pay Dragic max or near max money, I wonder what people think we could have added in addition to our current roster with Goran making around 20 million.

I like Goran fine, but to pay him that kind of money for what he brings to the table is crazy.

The Suns FO was in a tough spot to start the day, and I believe they fell forward. At the very least, the rest of the year should be interesting.

 

[splitsecond]

Goran is by NO MEANS WHATSOEVER a 20 million dollar player. Just another Joe Johnson except he won't put up anywhere near the stats Joe Johnson did after he left.

Good riddance if you ask me. And I LOVED Goran for the longest time and was livid when he left the first time. He has not become the player we need to lead this team to the next level.

I think the Suns not only improved the roster today, they likely improved chemistry and morale, and picket up THREE picks to use as bargaining chips to either trade for a marquee player or trade up to draft one.

I know people wanted this team to move on and up from where they were with this roster last year but it was clearly not happening.

This was a heck of a job done by a front office that had been put in a precarious position because we had several pllayers who's feeling got in the way of being able to be good team mates.

 

[Ronin]

Max for Goran...no thanks. Thankfully he's the heat problem now.

 

[slinslin]

Maybe we won't waive Granger...

Going to Phoenix would be good for Danny Granger. Was happy in Miami, but plans to retire in Ariz and is building dream home there.

We don't have playing time for him but maybe as a veteran simply.

 

[Joe Mama]

I already said, in the moment I think we're going to miss Plumlee as much or more than anyone. The other guys were easily replaced with guys we got or guys we had. Backup C is a hole.

However, I'd rather not mortgage the future for a quick fix in a backup role when in the end it probably won't matter either way what happens with this team this year.

I think we may miss him because we already were not deep 4-5, but make no mistake. Plumlee sucks. He is an awful defender. I don't care if Brandon Wright is 200 pounds soaking wet. He's way better than Plumlee. I don't think I've ever seen a player Plumlee's size get backed down in the post quite as easily as him.

Joe

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think Dragic is worth the max, and I think he would have given the Suns a nice hometown discount had they let him play point. Either way, too late now, but signing Goran for $20M+ per year doesn't sound like an appealing idea to me. In all fairness, I don't have a good understanding of what salary cap is going to look like when that new TV deal kicks in, so maybe it's not going to be as terrible then as it sounds now.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't think Dragic is worth the max, and I think he would have given the Suns a nice hometown discount had they let him play point. Either way, too late now, but signing Goran for $20M+ per year doesn't sound like an appealing idea to me. In all fairness, I don't have a good understanding of what salary cap is going to look like when that new TV deal kicks in, so maybe it's not going to be as terrible then as it sounds now.

I've seen 90 million plus tossed around for the first year of the new TV deal. I really would not want to give Goran 20 million but if he were a few years younger I'd probably do it and feel pretty good about it. I think there are going to be a lot of lesser players getting huge bucks in a few years.

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I've seen 90 million plus tossed around for the first year of the new TV deal. I really would not want to give Goran 20 million but if he were a few years younger I'd probably do it and feel pretty good about it. I think there are going to be a lot of lesser players getting huge bucks in a few years.

Steve

It also depends on who is on your team. If I had Durant locked in for five years, I'd give Goran $20M (assuming the cap is going to be $90M+), but outside of having a legitimate Superstar on your roster, no way. Also, that deal would be conditional- no international play.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It also depends on who is on your team. If I had Durant locked in for five years, I'd give Goran $20M (assuming the cap is going to be $90M+), but outside of having a legitimate Superstar on your roster, no way. Also, that deal would be conditional- no international play.

Yeah, that has to happen. But I wouldn't need a Durant on my team to overpay someone like Goran. I doubt we'll get that superstar unless we get lucky in the draft or have the assets to trade. As long as Goran is playing close to his salary, he makes that acquisition possible by either being here or being part of the trade. It's not like we have need for that money elsewhere, we are looking at plenty of room as the cap goes up.

Steve

 

[jagu]

My take (after a long hiatus from ASFN):

Dragic is a terrific player but he's an older PG who is heading into the decline phase of his career. I don't know how good he'll be once he slows down but I could see the next contract he gets being pretty darn ugly. He was complaining about his role here but he seems to regress any time there's a slight bit of competition around him on the roster.

Brandon Knight is a step up from Thomas and he's a solid scorer. He's also a heck of a lot younger. If you think about it, Knight could have good trade value next year as well. I don't see much of a future with Knight but I like the idea of having him as a trade asset.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Trying to build revenue (draw fans) with pizazz. They failed.

Stepping down a notch to exaggerating small ball. They failed.

Replacing a hero ball-hog pretending to be a Point Guard with another one. Why would the results be any different?

Bottom line. The Suns management team knows only how to take stabs in the dark. They are hardly fit for the National Basketball Association.

Do they even realize that gutting half of the roster without changing philosophy is a loud admission of their incompetence?

Old saying -- practice makes perfect.

Better saying -- perfect practice makes perfect.

Why are you still here? BC, I am really tired of these posts. Nothing but complaining always.

Really. Do you have anything positive to say-----ever?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Brandon Knight. Same size a Dragic, similar scorer, better defender. Much younger. More physical. More athletic.

We could have done worse.

Honestly, the only think I don't like about today is dealing the Laker pick. That sucks.

 

[iLLmatiC]

Why are you still here? BC, I am really tired of these posts. Nothing but complaining always.

Really. Do you have anything positive to say-----ever?

Has the Suns front office given him anything positive to speak of in the past 5 years?

 

[az jam]

Brandon Knight. Same size a Dragic, similar scorer, better defender. Much younger. More physical. More athletic.

We could have done worse.

Honestly, the only think I don't like about today is dealing the Laker pick. That sucks.

Agree, need to sit back and take all this in. Never have seen so much activity. Suns having press conference Friday morning. Will be good to hear their rationale for all of this.

 

[Dr. Jones]

2021 will be the year after his crippling deal ends for a 34year old PG making 20 mill right? All we have to do is look at D Will on the Nets to know that that pick might be a monster haul by the time it rolls around. Im fine getting what we got. And i hope this leads to Green staying and becoming the player i think he could become. I thought is was crazy to let him walk when he probably will only command reasonable money.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Has the Suns front office given him anything positive to speak of in the past 5 years?

The last two years. . .lots.

 

[iLLmatiC]

The last two years. . .lots.

Like giving out bad contracts? Upsetting the best player on the team to request a trade? Wasting a first round pick? Am I missing anything?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

Like giving out bad contracts? Upsetting the best player on the team to request a trade? Wasting a first round pick? Am I missing anything?

No you are right on the money, this is text book foamy, focusing on what might be entertaining and PG's. Even is the Suns had the #6 pick in 2015, they would draft a combo guard, I have no doubts at all. Unfortunately until the foam-master sells the team or dies, (I expect the former) the Suns will hover around 8 or 9 forever.

RMD's experiment of having point guards galore failed, so the Suns trade for yet another point guard.

This organization is ********, I feel like I have been repeating myself for years now.

****! I fully expect Boy-Wonder-MAC and foamy to deal Len for another ******** combo guard. And while you might think this is crazy of the top, in the back of your minds you know this is entirely plausible.

 

[SweetD]

Like giving out bad contracts? Upsetting the best player on the team to request a trade? Wasting a first round pick? Am I missing anything?

I really like Goran, but Eric is/was the best player on this team. Dragic's salary next year is going to be way to big for to long. This team was just to far away from being a contender to be locked into an older player.