The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[Russ Smith]

I think it's appropriate for post #100, if i get it in time, is to point out that everyone might now wonder maybe this is why Quan said what he did in that article about Shaun King? Maybe just maybe Quan already knew what we're now (at least some of us) starting to think about Josh?

 

[conraddobler]

Jesus Conrad - are all of our players beyond criticism? I expect better than this from you.

You think the coaching staff is really hapy were 1-4 and that our QB has 3 TDs and 6 turnovers on the season.

It's not a matter of DG getting it either - he made his bed - he's got to lay in it. I still hope he turns it around, jsut as I'm sure DG does, but if you thinkhe's happy with the overall play of the offense, he wouldn't be talking about surgery needed instead of a band-aid or bringing in old coaches of his.

He isn't a make his bed and lay in it kinda guy he changes like the wind based on winning.

He started Shelton about as soon as he could after he got well. He isn't above admiting he is wrong he's done it time and time again.

He will bail on Josh if he thinks he needs too or do you believe that is incorrect?

 

[conraddobler]

I think it's appropriate for post #100, if i get it in time, is to point out that everyone might now wonder maybe this is why Quan said what he did in that article about Shaun King? Maybe just maybe Quan already knew what we're now (at least some of us) starting to think about Josh?

It's his 8th start how many do we get before we really start thinking anything Russ?

He has 5 starts under DG and the last 2 he has begun doing more and more of what DG wants. Where is your logic man you flip flopped on the guy so fast it was scary after you watched him play one game under DG.

What in the heck are you people on?

If Boldin believes Shaun King is the answer I question Boldin's idea of an answer and so would he after he played a season with King as the QB.

Boldin catches footballs and he should stick to that. I have no problem with him wanting the best QB he can get, I just don't think advocating King makes him suddenly an expert in that area, quite the opposite.

 

[Bellingham Mike]

Most football people say it takes 3 or 4 for years to run a pro offence well.
I think we should put Josh`s starting 7 games into perspective. He won`t be
totally comfortable for awhile, remember Manning threw 28 picks his first
16 starts, and I think the Colts won 4 games.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He isn't a make his bed and lay in it kinda guy he changes like the wind based on winning.

He started Shelton about as soon as he could after he got well. He isn't above admiting he is wrong he's done it time and time again.

He will bail on Josh if he thinks he needs too or do you believe that is incorrect?

I don't know about the Shelton thing - I hope your right about that. But - Shelton was saying through the first three games he was healthy enough to play and couldn't figure out why he wasn't and I think it's a valid question as to why he wasn't. Was it DG's ego? I don't know. But I do know that behind AC there was someone who could at least possibly be a difference maker - someone who's proven it before.

With Josh - I don't think we have that because I don't equate Shawn King to the caliber of player that I believe LJ to be. There isn't a possible better starting option for the team at QB for one simple reason - EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER KNOWS SHAWN KING AIN'T THE ANSWER.

Again - just to make sure everyone's clear - I don't want Shawn King starting. I WANT Josh to live up to the hype I built up and believed from everyone else for him in the preseason - but from what I've seen of the kid - I fear he does not have that intangible that I think is soooo important in any perenial playoff leading QB - and I am a believer that the leadership quality is one that is inate in athletes and can't be learned. Would I lvoe to be proven wrong - HELL YES - I sat there with 1:07 left and saw us get the ball to the 40 and said outloud - Come on JOsh - complete the game - finish the game - take that step - I believed that he could until he failed again. 4 games that's happened where I've thought that this was gonna be "that" drvie for him and everyone of those drives have either ended up in him committing a turnover or not even getting a first down. I'm tired of getting my hopes up for him and basically when or better IF he does than I will be pleasantly surprised and come on here and say as much.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Most football people say it takes 3 or 4 for years to run a pro offence well.

who the hell says that? Most QBs - if they are going to be anything make the leap in their second year or if they have been sitting for a while, are able to come in a produce immediately: examples - Peyton Manning (who while you point out the 28 picks - you fail to mention him putting up 26 TDs as well - meaning that while he was making mistakes - he was making plays as well - something Josh with 3 TDs isn't doing) 13-3 second season, Donovan McNabb - Playoffs second season and NFC Title game ever since then, Tom Brady - first chance at playing in his second year - we all know his history, Delhomme, sat the bench and then in his first shot led Carolina to comeback victory after comeback victory on the way to the Super Bowl, Chad Pennington, sat the bench, came out immediately as a force to be reckoned with, Culpepper - threw 38 TDs first year - NFC Title game, hell even Marc Bulger - second season first five starts took an offense that had completely melted down and was 0-5 and won 5 straight games.

I guess Matt Hasselback took years to finally get his stuff together and is a good example of what you're talking about - but what has he done in the grand scheme? He threw a killer pick that cost his team the game last year and the jury's still out on that club with as much talent as they have.

 

[conraddobler]

I don't know about the Shelton thing - I hope your right about that. But - Shelton was saying through the first three games he was healthy enough to play and couldn't figure out why he wasn't and I think it's a valid question as to why he wasn't. Was it DG's ego? I don't know. But I do know that behind AC there was someone who could at least possibly be a difference maker - someone who's proven it before.

With Josh - I don't think we have that because I don't equate Shawn King to the caliber of player that I believe LJ to be. There isn't a possible better starting option for the team at QB for one simple reason - EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER KNOWS SHAWN KING AIN'T THE ANSWER.

Again - just to make sure everyone's clear - I don't want Shawn King starting. I WANT Josh to live up to the hype I built up and believed from everyone else for him in the preseason - but from what I've seen of the kid - I fear he does not have that intangible that I think is soooo important in any perenial playoff leading QB - and I am a believer that the leadership quality is one that is inate in athletes and can't be learned. Would I lvoe to be proven wrong - HELL YES - I sat there with 1:07 left and saw us get the ball to the 40 and said outloud - Come on JOsh - complete the game - finish the game - take that step - I believed that he could until he failed again. 4 games that's happened where I've thought that this was gonna be "that" drvie for him and everyone of those drives have either ended up in him committing a turnover or not even getting a first down. I'm tired of getting my hopes up for him and basically when or better IF he does than I will be pleasantly surprised and come on here and say as much.

Cheese I like you I do and honestly this is exasperting to me because we want the same things.

I want Josh to take the next step too or if he eventually dosen't I want someone else really I do.

The difference IMO is that I am more willing to give him a real chance which is at least an NFL season to prove that.

Atlanta gave up on Farve because they thought he was a bonehead.

Newsflash he is but he is also ridiculously talented.

Josh showed flashes of that leadership in the Vikings game last year and while it has been a while he is absorbing a tremendous amount of things in a very short time and he can't just play yet he still has to think too much. The game will slow down for him and then his real abilities will become more apparent good or bad.

First it was td passes and he fixed that and now it's intangible leadership and so on and so on.

There comes a point where you give up on a QB but have you not seen his arm? It's a rocket for God's sake and have you not seen some pretty touch passes out of the kid?

Have you not seen great runs out of him? Have you not seen him take vicious hits for the team to try and win a game?

I would say he has everything you want in a QB. He may not ever really get it you just don't know about that until they mature enough to see how they do when they know what they are doing.

You cannot make the judgement you are making IMHO as early as you are trying to make it that is all I am saying.

 

[Rats]

I think it's appropriate for post #100, if i get it in time, is to point out that everyone might now wonder maybe this is why Quan said what he did in that article about Shaun King? Maybe just maybe Quan already knew what we're now (at least some of us) starting to think about Josh?

Link to this supposed article? I heard it said here but never any solid proof he said this. It is hypicritcal to say you are just now thinking things about Joshs play when you were thinking it all along and on Draft day. Disingenuous Russ....and spinning Joshs play yesterday to say he isn't getting it done....that is pitiful from you. Forest for the trees, Forest for the trees.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

You guys need to mellow out.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

He who is not named tried to tell you bozos this and you went round and around with him for years over it. You were wrong then and you are wrong now.

congrats, you've just proved your utter incompetence. for years i argued that, despite his abrasive personality, he who shall not be named should be allowed to post. i usually agreed with his football knowledge. now you're just throwing stuff without having any knowledge behind you. well done. bravo.

care to be wrong about anything else?

 

[Rats]

Cheese I like you I do and honestly this is exasperting to me because we want the same things.

I want Josh to take the next step too or if he eventually dosen't I want someone else really I do.

The difference IMO is that I am more willing to give him a real chance which is at least an NFL season to prove that.

Atlanta gave up on Farve because they thought he was a bonehead.

Newsflash he is but he is also ridiculously talented.

Josh showed flashes of that leadership in the Vikings game last year and while it has been a while he is absorbing a tremendous amount of things in a very short time and he can't just play yet he still has to think too much. The game will slow down for him and then his real abilities will become more apparent good or bad.

First it was td passes and he fixed that and now it's intangible leadership and so on and so on.

There comes a point where you give up on a QB but have you not seen his arm? It's a rocket for God's sake and have you not seen some pretty touch passes out of the kid?

Have you not seen great runs out of him? Have you not seen him take vicious hits for the team to try and win a game?

I would say he has everything you want in a QB. He may not ever really get it you just don't know about that until they mature enough to see how they do when they know what they are doing.

You cannot make the judgement you are making IMHO as early as you are trying to make it that is all I am saying.

We all want the same thing...we want the Cards to win....some of us think they are on that path and some want to say I told you so. If Josh plays and has brain fart after brain fart then I will admit I was wrong about the guy.....this has not happened. There is no proof this has happened on the field. Anyone that has spent time under center and stared down a defense knows that this kid has improved every week and could really be a solid QB. Those who want something differant at this point can stay on the fence for all I care and push there agenda with regards to our QB. Josh is under center and progressing nicely. Only a handful don't think so.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese I like you I do and honestly this is exasperting to me because we want the same things.

I want Josh to take the next step too or if he eventually dosen't I want someone else really I do.

The difference IMO is that I am more willing to give him a real chance which is at least an NFL season to prove that.

Atlanta gave up on Farve because they thought he was a bonehead.

Newsflash he is but he is also ridiculously talented.

Josh showed flashes of that leadership in the Vikings game last year and while it has been a while he is absorbing a tremendous amount of things in a very short time and he can't just play yet he still has to think too much. The game will slow down for him and then his real abilities will become more apparent good or bad.

First it was td passes and he fixed that and now it's intangible leadership and so on and so on.

There comes a point where you give up on a QB but have you not seen his arm? It's a rocket for God's sake and have you not seen some pretty touch passes out of the kid?

Have you not seen great runs out of him? Have you not seen him take vicious hits for the team to try and win a game?

I would say he has everything you want in a QB. He may not ever really get it you just don't know about that until they mature enough to see how they do when they know what they are doing.

You cannot make the judgement you are making IMHO as early as you are trying to make it that is all I am saying.

That's fine conrad and respect everything you said. If people had written the same thing and laid out their case instead of instantly attacking we probably wouldn't have a 5000 page thread about this.

But one thing you mentione above I take issue with a little bit and it's why I think this thread has gotten out of control. You say that "first it was TDs and now it's intangibles" comment - but I have been bemoaning his lackof leadership since the aftermath of the Falcons game. I gave him the benefit of the doubt against the Rams - first game - and then we played the Pats and it's gonna be tough for anyone to play well ther - but it was really after that Falcons game did I sense a trend actually forming and what I perceived it be again - against a reallllllyyyyyy bad team in a situation that you couldn't have drwan up any easier than to get that first comeback lead your team to victory win - it pissed me off to no end. It just sticks with me that if he couldn't get it done in the last minute against a Defense that was missing it's top five players - when will he? I hope for all of our sake's it's sooner rather than later - but you can definitely count me as a skeptic.

 

[Rats]

Roger that......

You guys need to mellow out.

 

[Rats]

congrats, you've just proved your utter incompetence. for years i argued that, despite his abrasive personality, he who shall not be named should be allowed to post. i usually agreed with his football knowledge. now you're just throwing stuff without having any knowledge behind you. well done. bravo.

care to be wrong about anything else?

He aint heavvvvyyyy.....hes my broooothhhaaaaaa......gotta suck always being his only defender.......and give it a rest counciler....utter imcompetence....you both wrote the book on that....we have been asked to cool it....so i am going to......

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

*shakes head*

Eh whatever. Some people on here wanted to blame every single loss on McCown but yet didn't want to give him credit for the win. He did what he was supposed to but they kept complaining about a lack of TD passes. Its typical, people just want to hate on a guy because they don't like him. Its that simple.

Here let me show you what I mean...

After the Atlanta game people gave the majority of the blame to McCown and due to his 3 fumbles, I would say that was fair. However, after 3 drives in which King doesn't drive the Cardinals to victory. In fact he only drives them to a FG on a drive that he went 3 and out.

However after the game the only person to criticize both McCown and King was ME and only ME. If the QB is so important and was such a key point to leading them to victory, why was the only reaction that I was giving was the ever mature and well thought out "Nuh Uh" response or by giving what if scenarios?

I always put the blame/glory on every player and coach for a loss (and I mean every loss) and win. Even though I might put emphasis on a certain player or unit, I give credit to everybody.

For example during this last game I put the majority of the blame on the defense and special teams units. I did so because they gave up 22 points that lead to the comeback and the less emphasis on the offense because IMO they did enough to win the game by scoring 28 points. Now do I excuse them? No, not at all. The offense made their share of mistakes as well.

If you want to put the blame on one guy's shoulders (while I personally don't understand it) all I ask is at least have the balls to give him credit for the wins as well. I just ask that people be consistent in your opinions about what the hell you want and your definition of what a QB should be.

There are parts to this game than just the QB position although if you look at this board, people think the QB is incharge of everything.



BTW Cheesie this wasn't meant at you, its just that I've gotten sick of the "Blame everything on Josh but lets not give him any credit" crap that has been going on on this board. Its gotten very old, very quick.

I'd say your critism was fair of Josh but I still want to know about the Atlanta game and why no blame went to King (at least on the board anyways) besides ME

honestly, from my standpoint, it's for two reasons:

1. king just wasn't in the game long enough to merit a lot of criticism.
2. king is not being touted as the qb of the future, so he's not likely to come under great scrutiny. we pick josh apart b/c we're looking for what he's gonna bring us down the line. we don't expect him to be great now, but we want to see glimpses. and while i've seen glimpses of his being an okay qb, i have yet to see the glimpse of him having the cajones to put this team on his back and march them to a win. it's that simple. we don't need to examine king b/c we're not counting on what he might bring in the future.

 

[This_Guy]

I think it's appropriate for post #100, if i get it in time, is to point out that everyone might now wonder maybe this is why Quan said what he did in that article about Shaun King? Maybe just maybe Quan already knew what we're now (at least some of us) starting to think about Josh?

Or maybe it had to do with what he already knew about King?

With bJosh - I don't think we have that because I don't equate Shawn King to the caliber of player that I believe LJ to be. There isn't a possible better starting option for the team at QB for one simple reason - EVERYONE AND THEIR MOTHER KNOWS SHAWN KING AIN'T THE ANSWER.

Cheesebeef,

I have enjoyed your take in this thread and think you are dead on. Being a great athlete is nice, but real QB's have to do other things. They need to manage the game, they need to have leadership qualities, they need to pick up that one first down in the 4th quarter...sometimes they are asked to win a game in adverse conditions. It's part of the job.

So since you seem like a logical guy, can you explain your above take on Shaun King? I'd suggest you actually take an objective look at King's resume and then explain why you think King is not the answer. I understand there is a widely held perception that King is no good, but based on his resume I don't understand where that comes from.

When Trent Green got hurt, how many people thought Kurt Warner would be a multiple MVP QB. When franchise QB Drew Bledsoe got hurt, who thought Tom Brady would turn out to be an MVP caliber player? Before Testaverde got hurt in NY, the Jets brass openly wondered if Pennington was a bust. Sometimes, you just don't know until they play.

Considering that, I'm just not sure why everyone here is SO SURE that a guy who has one of the top winning % in the league might not be an improvement over Josh McCown.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah I bet they did..."Damn you Cheese...how do you finish in the top 10% of idiots in your class and expect to become a blood sucking waste of everyones time you need to do better son". No I usuaully pay you no never mind so it is hard to hate ,more like gum on the bottem of the shoe thing for you and your spew. Would rather clean it off and throw it in the garbage and be done with it. You must have quite the inferiority complex going for ya thinking everyone hates you but thanks for asking.

delete - no need for me to be hateful. apologies for personal attack.

and you should really know me to think that i wrote a book on anything. i could be the most competent person you've ever encountered...

 

[conraddobler]

This thread isn't going to settle anything we all made our points and it's like trying to argue someone into voting a different way it usually aint gonna happen.

All I really want is for Josh to get a fair shot. I want him to succeed but if he dosen't and he gets a fair shot I'm fine with it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What's the deal.

How can Rats and cheese not get along?

O

CLASSIC!!!




(why is this telling me my message is "too short"??? since when were we given minimum number of words to use in our essays?)

 

[conraddobler]

Or maybe it had to do with what he already knew about King? Cheesebeef,

I have enjoyed your take in this thread and think you are dead on. Being a great athlete is nice, but real QB's have to do other things. They need to manage the game, they need to have leadership qualities, they need to pick up that one first down in the 4th quarter...sometimes they are asked to win a game in adverse conditions. It's part of the job.

So since you seem like a logical guy, can you explain your above take on Shaun King? I'd suggest you actually take an objective look at King's resume and then explain why you think King is not the answer. I understand there is a widely held perception that King is no good, but based on his resume I don't understand where that comes from.

When Trent Green got hurt, how many people thought Kurt Warner would be a multiple MVP QB. When franchise QB Drew Bledsoe got hurt, who thought Tom Brady would turn out to be an MVP caliber player? Before Testaverde got hurt in NY, the Jets brass openly wondered if Pennington was a bust. Sometimes, you just don't know until they play.

Considering that, I'm just not sure why everyone here is SO SURE that a guy who has one of the top winning % in the league might not be an improvement over Josh McCown.

I hope your guy gets a chance.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He aint heavvvvyyyy.....hes my broooothhhaaaaaa......gotta suck always being his only defender.......and give it a rest counciler....utter imcompetence....you both wrote the book on that....we have been asked to cool it....so i am going to......

right after I throw one more insult out there (you mean). Oh and when you call some iNcompetent - one - SPELL THE WORD RIGHT and two you might want to spell their label correcty COUNSELOR.

Way to show off those utterly competent vocab skills!

Rats - do you go to the Halftime meets cause I'd really like to meet you the next time in town for one. And no that's not a threat - I've just like meeting really insane people.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Or maybe it had to do with what he already knew about King? Cheesebeef,

I have enjoyed your take in this thread and think you are dead on. Being a great athlete is nice, but real QB's have to do other things. They need to manage the game, they need to have leadership qualities, they need to pick up that one first down in the 4th quarter...sometimes they are asked to win a game in adverse conditions. It's part of the job.

So since you seem like a logical guy, can you explain your above take on Shaun King? I'd suggest you actually take an objective look at King's resume and then explain why you think King is not the answer. I understand there is a widely held perception that King is no good, but based on his resume I don't understand where that comes from.

When Trent Green got hurt, how many people thought Kurt Warner would be a multiple MVP QB. When franchise QB Drew Bledsoe got hurt, who thought Tom Brady would turn out to be an MVP caliber player? Before Testaverde got hurt in NY, the Jets brass openly wondered if Pennington was a bust. Sometimes, you just don't know until they play.

Considering that, I'm just not sure why everyone here is SO SURE that a guy who has one of the top winning % in the league might not be an improvement over Josh McCown.

Shawn King was a caretaker QB for one of the best defenses of all time. If your defense holds a team to 11 points in the NFC title game - you better win the damn game. He also stunk the next year in the playoffs when they got shnockered in the playoffs by Philly - a game they were favored to win. Shawn King's had his chance - he couldn't cut it in Tampa IMO even with better weapons.

You can't just point to his winning percentage without acknowledging that the defense had everything to with EVERY QBs winning percentage (Dilfer, King and Johnson) during Tampa's Run.

That's okay - I think we'll get to see some of him this season and then we'll have proof either way.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I've just like meeting really insane people.

:vocabskills:

 

[Cheesebeef]

:vocabskills:

D'OH! But at least my incompetency wasn't used in the middle of calling someone else the same very thing.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

CLASSIC!!!




(why is this telling me my message is "too short"??? since when were we given minimum number of words to use in our essays?)

I've gotten that message too.