The Reality of Josh McCown - and other musings . . .

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

:vocabskills:

again, classic. you're on fire BIM!

 

[Rats]

right after I throw one more insult out there (you mean). Oh and when you call some iNcompetent - one - SPELL THE WORD RIGHT and two you might want to spell their label correcty COUNSELOR.

Way to show off those utterly competent vocab skills!

Rats - do you go to the Halftime meets cause I'd really like to meet you the next time in town for one. And no that's not a threat - I've just like meeting really insane people.

Yeah....ok.....Hey Cheese, Ouchie...hows that next great franchise QB you were pimping doing? Carson Bradley....what a find.... But you guys sure know your footballll

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah....ok.....Hey Cheese, Ouchie...hows that next great franchise QB you were pimping doing? Carson Bradley....what a find.... But you guys sure know your footballll

It was a joke about one of our best friends - ARE YOU AN ABSOLUTE SCHMUCK! You bought that? Now I really need to meet the dumbest man alive.

Oh and I guess Stout, 11, Mao, Russ and the host of others who aren't thrilled by Josh's 4th quarter play are just as iMcompetent as the two guys who were told to leave the board repeatedly last year for fear of what happened - being proven right

I'd like for you to even try and demonstrate out iMcompetence over the the last couple years here Rats - Tango said any day of the week as far as comparisons go - I guess MOndays don't work for any day of the week. Care to take a shot?

Dude - I can't believe you couldn't tell the whole Carson Bradley thing was a total joke - wow.

 

[Stout]

Um, just to chime in, for those folks asking why King didn't drive us to a win...I got four words..."Karl Williams" followed by "stupid fumble". Thanks for calling.

 

[Rats]

It was a joke about one of our best friends - ARE YOU AN ABSOLUTE SCHMUCK! You bought that? Now I really need to meet the dumbest man alive.

Oh and I guess Stout, 11, Mao, Russ and the host of others who aren't thrilled by Josh's 4th quarter play are just as iMcompetent as the two guys who were told to leave the board repeatedly last year for fear of what happened - being proven right

I'd like for you to even try and demonstrate out iMcompetence over the the last couple years here Rats - Tango said any day of the week as far as comparisons go - I guess MOndays don't work for any day of the week. Care to take a shot?

Dude - I can't believe you couldn't tell the whole Carson Bradley thing was a total joke - wow.

Yeah....and there is a curse on us ....Ya see I just don't give anything you say any creedance. There might have been two good points you made this entire thread......nope those sucked to......done taking your bait.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah....and there is a curse on us ....Ya see I just don't give anything you say any creedance. There might have been two good points you made this entire thread......nope those sucked to......done taking your bait.

are you really implying that Ouchie and I really believed that Carson Bradley was for real? Did we really make you think that we thought that? I mean - I knew we were pretty brilliant - but to make people honestly the believe in absolute rubbish is pretty ingenius.

Look for our thread tomorrow - it'll be titled - THE SKY IS RED - check it out - there's some credence to that theory.

And Rats - you'll stop taking the bait when I stop feeding it to your ever, hateful, unintellligent, belligerent watering pie hole.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah....ok.....Hey Cheese, Ouchie...hows that next great franchise QB you were pimping doing? Carson Bradley....what a find.... But you guys sure know your footballll

carson is a personal friend of ours. it was tongue in cheek. apparently the nuances of humor are completely lost on you.

keep searching. eventually you might find something that i was wrong on.

 

[This_Guy]

Shawn King was a caretaker QB for one of the best defenses of all time. If your defense holds a team to 11 points in the NFC title game - you better win the damn game. He also stunk the next year in the playoffs when they got shnockered in the playoffs by Philly - a game they were favored to win. Shawn King's had his chance - he couldn't cut it in Tampa IMO even with better weapons.

You can't just point to his winning percentage without acknowledging that the defense had everything to with EVERY QBs winning percentage (Dilfer, King and Johnson) during Tampa's Run.

That's okay - I think we'll get to see some of him this season and then we'll have proof either way.

Oh, I know that's the perception, but again, I urge you to check the facts.

In King's full season starting, the Bucs defense finished 12th in the league, the worst season the Bucs defense during the Sapp/Brooks/Lynch run. In that same season, the Bucs offense set their franchise record for points. Worst defense in 7 years, best offense in franchise history. Those are facts which fly in the face of the argument that "the defense carried them".

That's exactly why I wonder how you judge McCown. The Cards defense has had this team in position to win 4 of 5 games, and the QB didn't get it done when it counted. So King was making these plays in his rookie and 2nd seasons but somehow "had his chance" and "isn't the answer", but McCown is in his 3rd season and you are still hopeful he will begin to show them. You criticize King for "losing" the NFC Championship game but don't acknowledge that one week earlier he was the only rookie QB in 30 years to win a playoff game. That's because rookies aren't good enough to win in the playoffs. Not even Peyton Manning. Of course he wasn't ready.

I do agree with you that it is inevitable that we will see King at some point, and we'll find out if I'm right.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh, I know that's the perception, but again, I urge you to check the facts.

In King's full season starting, the Bucs defense finished 12th in the league, the worst season the Bucs defense during the Sapp/Brooks/Lynch run. In that same season, the Bucs offense set their franchise record for points. Worst defense in 7 years, best offense in franchise history. Those are facts which fly in the face of the argument that "the defense carried them".

You criticize King for "losing" the NFC Championship game but don't acknowledge that one week earlier he was the only rookie QB in 30 years to win a playoff game. That's because rookies aren't good enough to win in the playoffs. Not even Peyton Manning. Of course he wasn't ready.

I do agree with you that it is inevitable that we will see King at some point, and we'll find out if I'm right.

First of all - as far as setting franchsie records for the Bucs - that ain't saying much considering how pathetic the Bucs had been for the better part of their entire existence.

As far as the week earlier - how many points did the Bucs put up in that game? If I recall correctly they won 14-13 or 16-14 and only won because the Redskins botched a last second field goal. So in two playoff games - King led his team to a maximum of 22 combined points - which means in two games - he "led" them to two total touchdowns and ZERO TDs in the NFC Title game - that isn't leading a team anywhere. That's not making mistakes - same thing Josh has done for the most part this season.

And how many points did the Bucs score in the playoffs against Philly one year later after their record setting season? Didn't they get pummelled by a score of something like 17-3?

 

[Evil Ash]

honestly, from my standpoint, it's for two reasons:

1. king just wasn't in the game long enough to merit a lot of criticism.

A lot of criticism? No one criticized him except me. All I remember after the game was the mindless "Shawn King is the greatest QB in the whole wide world" crap spewed after the game or if anybody played but Josh our record would be 3-1.

I hate "what if" scenarios. There is absolutely no way they could be proven.

2. king is not being touted as the qb of the future, so he's not likely to come under great scrutiny. we pick josh apart b/c we're looking for what he's gonna bring us down the line. we don't expect him to be great now, but we want to see glimpses. and while i've seen glimpses of his being an okay qb, i have yet to see the glimpse of him having the cajones to put this team on his back and march them to a win. it's that simple. we don't need to examine king b/c we're not counting on what he might bring in the future.

He has taken the team on his back but he hasn't done it this year yet. All I want is for him to get a fair chance as well as giving some of the credit to him when it is due. Thats all.

For some reason some people on here forget that there are 53 players on our active roster. Some of them have parts in our wins and our losses. Its NOT JUST THE QB.

Last I checked McCown wasn't the one played/called for the prevent defense that allowed the niners to get back in the game. But reading some of the posts on the board, you'd think he did.

They blamed every loss on McCown because he didn't lead the team to victory (even though it wasn't all his fault), but when we got a win absolutely none of the credit was given to him. Didn't he lead us to a win over the Saints?

I just ask for consistency in what people expect in the QB position. If its all about wins and losses, then give him blame in the losses and praise in the games. If its about stats then praise Josh when he has a good game and blame him when he doesn't. Its not rocket science.

Some people let their bias against McCown blind them in their assessment of the football team. They'll just blame everything on him and when he has a good game they'll go silent.

Personally I find that just plain sad

 

[CaptTurbo]

I think it's appropriate for post #100, if i get it in time, is to point out that everyone might now wonder maybe this is why Quan said what he did in that article about Shaun King? Maybe just maybe Quan already knew what we're now (at least some of us) starting to think about Josh?

No way Josh is the golden child. Blessed with being a noob after 78 starts. Nothing he does is wrong. I mean my god he had 3 touchdowns now. Enshrine the man!!!

 

[Russ Smith]

He isn't a make his bed and lay in it kinda guy he changes like the wind based on winning.

He started Shelton about as soon as he could after he got well. He isn't above admiting he is wrong he's done it time and time again.

He will bail on Josh if he thinks he needs too or do you believe that is incorrect?

Tell that to Shelton who openly said he'd been ready to play for 3 weeks and had no control over when Green finally played him. LJ made it quite clear that his back was not the reason he wasn't starting.

 

[ajcardfan]

No way Josh is the golden child. Blessed with being a noob after 78 starts. Nothing he does is wrong. I mean my god he had 3 touchdowns now. Enshrine the man!!!

McCown is in the bottom third of NFL QBs right now in my mind. I'd take your criticism of him more seriously if you hadn't pimped AJ Feeley so hard this offseason.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25147&highlight=Feeley

 

[Russ Smith]

Link to this supposed article? I heard it said here but never any solid proof he said this. It is hypicritcal to say you are just now thinking things about Joshs play when you were thinking it all along and on Draft day. Disingenuous Russ....and spinning Joshs play yesterday to say he isn't getting it done....that is pitiful from you. Forest for the trees, Forest for the trees.

With all due respect that's the 2nd time now you've claimed without having the guts to actually say it, that I made that Quan comment up. I posted the article for you the last time, this_guy posted an article from a Florida paper on King working out in Florida and wanting to start. It happened, in the article Quan said that he knew King wasn't here just to be a backup, he wanted to start, and he thought he eventually WOULD start.

http://sptimes.com/2004/07/09/Sports/King_builds_new_life_.shtml for you to read again so the next time it comes up you don't accuse me of lying about it for a third time.


You make no sense, you complain over and over that I sit on the fence, but when I am saying that my opinion of Josh all along, that he's a great athlete and a mediocre QB, you suddenly attack me for using my preconceived notion? Talk about hypocrisy, you want me to take a stand but when I do you complain that I'm apparently not being open minded?

I've already explained why I don't believe in Josh, he couldn't do it at SMU, neither he nor his coaches believed in him. He moved up the draft boards on sheer athletic talent. Graves openly said he's so nervous it bothers the whole team in the huddle. We've seen examples of that on the field in games.

he has the physical tools, so have LOTS of players who never make it. Green is his best chance, when we hired Green and he chose Josh I was surprised, disappointed, but willing to give him a chance to work with Josh because he's made so many QB's look good before, I figured if anybody can get Josh to look good it's Green.He's progressing but far slower than others, remember he's had THREE full NFL camps and preseasons, people keep comparing him to a rookie but he's not a rookie and to be honest the only rookie playing right now, Roethlisberger, is not only playing better than Josh, he's improving faster than Josh. Even his teammates are on ESPN saying they're amazed how confident he is in the pocket and how quickly he's picking things up and instilling confidence in his teammates.

 

[conraddobler]

Tell that to Shelton who openly said he'd been ready to play for 3 weeks and had no control over when Green finally played him. LJ made it quite clear that his back was not the reason he wasn't starting.

Shelton is starting now and to me thats admiting a mistake or at the very least being somewhat flexible.

DG will get the QB thing right he isn't going to stick with Josh past this year unless Josh earns it.

Nothing can really be done about he QB spot until next year anyway so if Josh seriously stinks King will play and we will get a new QB next year probably a vet.

I think too many people here have a Plummer hangover, jeez how many years did he get here and how did all of you survive that?

 

[CaptTurbo]

McCown is in the bottom third of NFL QBs right now in my mind. I'd take your criticism of him more seriously if you hadn't pimped AJ Feeley so hard this offseason.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=25147&highlight=Feeley

Still think Feeley is good. Have you watched the dolphins? You thin our line is bad? LOL

 

[Russ Smith]

For some reason some people on here forget that there are 53 players on our active roster. Some of them have parts in our wins and our losses. Its NOT JUST THE QB.

All well and good but remember who the coach is, Dennis Green. In Green's heyday in Minnesota he turned a just off retirement Randall Cunningham into an MVP, and he turned a 2nd year QB who didn't play at as a rookie into an MVP candidate(Culpepper) and he turned a bunch of career mediocre QB's into pretty good players. The point is in HIS system QB's tend to have career years. Sure some of that was Moss, but he had guys doing it before Moss too, not AS good but still he has an ability to make Qb's look better for him than they do anywhere else.

So it's then somewhat more realistic to expect to see a similar jump in performance from Josh is it not? I do clearly see progress in some areas but it's coming glacially slow. he's taking fewer sacks but he still takes way too many and at all the wrong times (in FG range, late in games etc). He's a better QB today than he was last year but I don't see a guy who's going to take us to the playoffs next season.

QB's are a lot like trying to hit a curveball in baseball. You can be the biggest strongest, fastest guy there is but if you can't hit a curve, you're not going to be very good at baseball. QB's have to be more than just big, fast, strong armed and good at basketball, so far I'm not seeing those other things from Josh. I really thought Green would bring them out because Green KNOWS QB's, but I don't see it so far.

 

[ajcardfan]

Still think Feeley is good. Have you watched the dolphins? You thin our line is bad? LOL

Yep. They are a bad team. But Feeley was horrible, there's no way around it. Hey, if he gets a postseason win then.....

:notworthy

you'll be my number 1 QB guru on the board.

 

[Rats]

With all due respect that's the 2nd time now you've claimed without having the guts to actually say it, that I made that Quan comment up. I posted the article for you the last time, this_guy posted an article from a Florida paper on King working out in Florida and wanting to start. It happened, in the article Quan said that he knew King wasn't here just to be a backup, he wanted to start, and he thought he eventually WOULD start.

http://sptimes.com/2004/07/09/Sports/King_builds_new_life_.shtml for you to read again so the next time it comes up you don't accuse me of lying about it for a third time.


You make no sense, you complain over and over that I sit on the fence, but when I am saying that my opinion of Josh all along, that he's a great athlete and a mediocre QB, you suddenly attack me for using my preconceived notion? Talk about hypocrisy, you want me to take a stand but when I do you complain that I'm apparently not being open minded?

I've already explained why I don't believe in Josh, he couldn't do it at SMU, neither he nor his coaches believed in him. He moved up the draft boards on sheer athletic talent. Graves openly said he's so nervous it bothers the whole team in the huddle. We've seen examples of that on the field in games.

he has the physical tools, so have LOTS of players who never make it. Green is his best chance, when we hired Green and he chose Josh I was surprised, disappointed, but willing to give him a chance to work with Josh because he's made so many QB's look good before, I figured if anybody can get Josh to look good it's Green.He's progressing but far slower than others, remember he's had THREE full NFL camps and preseasons, people keep comparing him to a rookie but he's not a rookie and to be honest the only rookie playing right now, Roethlisberger, is not only playing better than Josh, he's improving faster than Josh. Even his teammates are on ESPN saying they're amazed how confident he is in the pocket and how quickly he's picking things up and instilling confidence in his teammates.

Russ, I may have asked for it before, I honestly don't remember. But that quote is dubious at best. You make it sound as though Q is throwing Josh under the bus and that is not the case. He is endorsing Kings work ethic and supporting a fellow Seminole. As far as your fencesitting I didn't call you out on that. I was pointing out your bias against Josh because of your notion that we should have gotten a QB at Draft time and we didn't. Now when ever you can you invent problems or pile on when some one else does about Josh. That is transparent to me that while saying we will see with the Kid we really should have gone with a differant guy. Sundays game and the point made in this thread that Josh should take the blame for our loss strikes me as bias. And alot of others here say the same thing.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Yep. They are a bad team. But Feeley was horrible, there's no way around it. Hey, if he gets a postseason win then.....

:notworthy

you'll be my number 1 QB guru on the board.

lol To be fair i have been equally unimpressed with both. I was also on McCowns wagon before the season started (remember predicting breaking the passign record?)

But I always reserve the right to call it like I see it. And from what I see of McCown he will be selling insurance next year or the year after.

 

[Russ Smith]

I think too many people here have a Plummer hangover, jeez how many years did he get here and how did all of you survive that?

At least with Jake I somewhat GOT why so many were so unwilling to concede he was a big part of the problem. He played at ASU, he was exciting, he showed so much promise his rookie year(15 td in 9 starts) and we were in the playoffs in year 2 of Jake. To me I knew people were in many cases raised on losing Cardinal football and Jake and the 98 team was the one exception and that's why they loved him so much.

Hell there are Packer fans to this day who insist Don Majkowski got a raw deal there, some guys just get that kind of fan loyalty.

With Josh all I see is the athletic ability, the speed and the arm, it's not translating on the field he's not doing things that I see and get excited about.

Hell I've been as critical of Fitz as anybody on this board but when he rockets up off the field and snatches those balls out of the air I get excited, this is the part of his game that none of us deny, you can see the talent, the hands, the body control, it's exciting. I don't see that with Josh, I see a guy that if the first option is there he can deliver the ball, if he's not play over.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Hey, if he gets a postseason win then.....

:notworthy

you'll be my number 1 QB guru on the board.

Im slow today Feeley has a post season win already btw. In fact many eagles fans say he would have won the superbowl the way he was playing and a hurt McNabb should not have been brought back which he was and they lost the NFC championship game.

 

[Russ Smith]

Russ, I may have asked for it before, I honestly don't remember. But that quote is dubious at best. You make it sound as though Q is throwing Josh under the bus and that is not the case. He is endorsing Kings work ethic and supporting a fellow Seminole. As far as your fencesitting I didn't call you out on that. I was pointing out your bias against Josh because of your notion that we should have gotten a QB at Draft time and we didn't. Now when ever you can you invent problems or pile on when some one else does about Josh. That is transparent to me that while saying we will see with the Kid we really should have gone with a differant guy. Sundays game and the point made in this thread that Josh should take the blame for our loss strikes me as bias. And alot of others here say the same thing.

#1 King played for Tulane not Florida State, he's not a "fellow Seminole" although they are both from Florida.


as for me somehow saying Quan threw Josh under the bus, here is the statement again.


"I think Shaun is a smart quarterback," Boldin said. "He's a great competitor and a good athlete. I think he wants it. He's showing out here he's not slacking off. I think he wants that starting position. Before the year's over, he'll get it."

Now he flat out said before the year is over King is going to be our starting QB, if that's not a statement about his opinion on our QB's what is? He didn't say he's going to fight and if the opportunity comes up he'll jump on it, he said before the year is over, he'll be the starter.

Quan can speak his mind, last year early he was openly praising blake, took me and Johnson under his wings, taught us what it takes to be an NFL WR. Later in the year he took some shots at Blake, felt he didn't accept any blame, felt he was a bit selfish. Quan is NOT Keyshawn though, he doesn't talk just to hear himself, when he says something, odds are he means it, and he said King will get the starting QB job.

How is a direct quote from a player dubious? You think you know more about the QB's on the team than Quan does?

 

[clif]

I still dont think you can fully jugde Josh without a running game.... I dont recall people banging on josh after the saints win..why? cuz the team rushed for 211 yards.


my point is I will reserve judgement until we can get some consistent run production and more targets for josh to hit.

 

[Rats]

#1 King played for Tulane not Florida State, he's not a "fellow Seminole" although they are both from Florida.


as for me somehow saying Quan threw Josh under the bus, here is the statement again.


"I think Shaun is a smart quarterback," Boldin said. "He's a great competitor and a good athlete. I think he wants it. He's showing out here he's not slacking off. I think he wants that starting position. Before the year's over, he'll get it."

Now he flat out said before the year is over King is going to be our starting QB, if that's not a statement about his opinion on our QB's what is? He didn't say he's going to fight and if the opportunity comes up he'll jump on it, he said before the year is over, he'll be the starter.

Quan can speak his mind, last year early he was openly praising blake, took me and Johnson under his wings, taught us what it takes to be an NFL WR. Later in the year he took some shots at Blake, felt he didn't accept any blame, felt he was a bit selfish. Quan is NOT Keyshawn though, he doesn't talk just to hear himself, when he says something, odds are he means it, and he said King will get the starting QB job.

How is a direct quote from a player dubious? You think you know more about the QB's on the team than Quan does?

Yeah I am wrong about "fellow Seminoles" but I see it as dubious only in that you would use this quote out of context to try and pile on Josh even though Sundays losss is not his fault. Your quote was and I am paraphrasing that you are and others are now seeing what Quan might have meant in his quote. I say you haven't changed your position at all. You always had a bias against the Kid but now is your chance to invent reasons that this loss was Joshs fault and that some how his performence was not good enough therefore we lose and Greeen shouldn't have gone with him and won't stick with him...blah, blah, blah......Russ it is your same old song and dance my friend. You wanted a different QB. DG said Josh is the guy for the forseeable future and now at every opportunity or percieved one you and others invent reasons the Kid shouldn't be under center. And the reason? You didn't get Ben or Eli or Blake got cut....Josh got the starting Job...and hasn't lost it by his play on the field. He is a work in progress and he has made strides. I am sorry that you can't or refuse to see that.