Thoughts on the Cincinnati Loss

[Mitch]

One of the major reasons why Kurt Warner became so successful in the Whisenhunt offense is that Warner was able to convince the coaches that the whole key to the play-calling was to enable him to "get into a rhythm" right from the start. In short, Warner did his best to make the offense QB friendly.

Yes, it meant passing on first downs and passing early and often. One can remember the Chicago game at Soldier Field three years ago when Warner, without the services on Anquan Boldin that day, came out firing the ball down the field left and right. Warner had the Bears' defense on its heels the whole time and the Cardinals jumped out to big lead early and coasted to a win from that point on.

What is happening now early in games is that the coaches are running to set up the pass instead of passing to set up the run. The predictability of this is making it easy for defensive coordinators to prepare for. On first down it will be Wells off-tackle left (75% of the time) and then on 2nd and 5 the Cardinals go into the shotgun. Why? Why not run again? And if not, wouldn't it make even more sense to employ play action in order to keep the linebackers honest?

The point is the Cardinals remain more committed to the passing game than the running game---the running game is still merely a table setter for the passing game.

But as is the case when a team is half-committed to something---it generally does not produce consistent offense.

What Whisenhunt, Miller and Grimm need to decide this off-season is the true direction of the offense. Do they want to be a true running team with play action options? Do they want to open the field up and play catch with surprise run options the way they did when Warner was thriving in the offense?

They cannot expect to do both consistently well.

While it was very disappointing to see John Skelton play three quarters of poor football---but---because of how predictable the Cardinal offense is, did you notice what DC Mike Zimmer was able to do to pressure Skelton into quick decisions? How many times did the Bengal edge rusher have a clear path to Skelton? It was ridiculous.

At half-time, Whisenhunt was telling the FOX crew that Skelton was supposed to know what to do---but---sorry---if the play that is called allows an edge rusher a free shot into the back or into the face of the QB---there is something seriously wrong with the play design or the protection schemes. We have seen this time and time again this year---straight shots at the QB left and right. Rushers left totally unblocked. This will rattle ANY QB. To Skelton's credit is he tries as best as he can to remain poised--and he does not play afraid---but this is what pressure does---it makes the QB hurry his throws, and in hurrying his throws, Skelton, like most QBs under duress, tends to release the ball too high.

On the flip-side, did you see what OC Jay Gruden was doing for his rookie QB Andy Dalton? Talk about trying to get a young QB into a rhythm the way Warner would have loved. Gruden was able to buy his young QB much more time than Skelton ever got, by calling an array of play action passes and bootlegs. Just those extra seconds of time allowed Dalton to have 200 yards of passing in the first half.

One of the real turning points in the game, imo, was in the 2nd quarter when the Cardinals were starting to close in on Dalton faster---and Dalton threw up a duck that inexplicably Kerry Rhodes whiffed on. That pass was gift-wrapped and an interception there, with the Cardinals only trailing 10-0, could have changed the whole game---pretty much like the week before versus Cleveland when the offense was able to score a TD in the 2nd quarter that set the tone for a good second half and out the players in the mindset that they were going to come from behind again and prevail.

Even if the Cardinals went into half-time trailing 17-7, they were likely going to win this game.

20-0 at half-time and having dodged what well could have been 26-0, was a much more formidable task.

And yet---yet---despite an array of simply bonehead penalties from Wilson, Dockett and Adams---and an inexplicable fumbled snap on first and goal at the Bengals' one yard line---the Cardinals STILL had a very good chance to win the game.

The two Benson fumbles were huge---because they are so rare to begin with. Daryl Washington was outstanding in this game---and even after Patrick Peterson was sidelined, A.J. Jefferson and Richard Marshall---and the with some of the best over the top safety help of the season from Wilson, Rhodes and Johnson, were able to stifle the Bengal passing game.

As for Skelton---when the team needs to go into full passing mode---he's at his best. That's when he gets his rhythm.

Beanie Wells has been running banged up---which has made it even more difficult for the coaches to commit to the run. To Beanie's credit, he is still lunging forward for good extra yards, like the clutch way he did on 4th and 2 amidst heavy traffic on the toss stretch/sweep left.

What was great about the Doucet play at the end was that Skelton saw it---on a play where he normally is trying to hit the underneath WR. But Doucet stopped his route and started backpedalling, two no-nos at one time---which make it difficult on the QB---and much harder for the WR to adjust to the ball.

What I would want to know---is what would happen if the coaches just opened up the passing game and commit to right from the start versus the Seahawks---

Now, that said---Mike Zimmer obviously studied the Seahawks' tape of how they beat the Cardinals, because Pete Carroll has had the Cardinals' offense and its biggest vulnerabilities down pat---what he simply does is outnumber the weak-side edge so that he can send the edge straight to the QB---now on some plays that edge could be the DE, the OLB, the SS, the FS or the CB---which is the confusion he creates---just as Zimmer did.

So---how do you counter?

1. Even if your RB is lined up in the shotgun to the strong side of the formation---on the snap he has to slide to the weak-side.

2. You motion the RB to that side and then use him to block the edge, or as a hot receiver.

3. You motion the TE to add the extra blocker---(note: if Carroll sees this his players will know that the strong side has shifted and there will be edge overload blitz options to the side the TE just vacated---the whole premise is to outnumber the protection to wherever the weak side of the formation is or whatever it becomes).

4. You run sprint action, shifted pocket or bootlegs away from it, with a variety of zig-zag and comeback routes.

5. You drag the strong-side TE across to the vacated weak side and keep it clear by having the weak-side WR run a go or deep post.

6. Best of all you keep two RBs in and run max protection. 2 TE sets are good counters as well---that and bunch WR sets, as the Cardinals did to get Doucet free.

So---what the Cardinals need to see, imo, is what Skelton and the offense would look like if early on they pass to set up the run instead of the opposite.

Why is this a better option for teams in the NFL today? You are passing against stacked boxes and running versus 5 & 6 DBs---it's that simple and is significantly easier to do than running versus stacked boxes and passing versus 5 & 6 DBs.

 

[Russ Smith]

One of the major reasons why Kurt Warner became so successful in the Whisenhunt offense is that Warner was able to convince the coaches that the whole key to the play-calling was to enable him to "get into a rhythm" right from the start. In short, Warner did his best to make the offense QB friendly.

Yes, it meant passing on first downs and passing early and often. One can remember the Chicago game at Soldier Field three years ago when Warner, without the services on Anquan Boldin that day, came out firing the ball down the field left and right. Warner had the Bears' defense on its heels the whole time and the Cardinals jumped out to big lead early and coasted to a win from that point on.

What is happening now early in games is that the coaches are running to set up the pass instead of passing to set up the run. The predictability of this is making it easy for defensive coordinators to prepare for. On first down it will be Wells off-tackle left (75% of the time) and then on 2nd and 5 the Cardinals go into the shotgun. Why? Why not run again? And if not, wouldn't it make even more sense to employ play action in order to keep the linebackers honest?

The point is the Cardinals remain more committed to the passing game than the running game---the running game is still merely a table setter for the passing game.

But as is the case when a team is half-committed to something---it generally does not produce consistent offense.

What Whisenhunt, Miller and Grimm need to decide this off-season is the true direction of the offense. Do they want to be a true running team with play action options? Do they want to open the field up and play catch with surprise run options the way they did when Warner was thriving in the offense?

They cannot expect to do both consistently well.

While it was very disappointing to see John Skelton play three quarters of poor football---but---because of how predictable the Cardinal offense is, did you notice what DC Mike Zimmer was able to do to pressure Skelton into quick decisions? How many times did the Bengal edge rusher have a clear path to Skelton? It was ridiculous.

At half-time, Whisenhunt was telling the FOX crew that Skelton was supposed to know what to do---but---sorry---if the play that is called allows an edge rusher a free shot into the back or into the face of the QB---there is something seriously wrong with the play design or the protection schemes. We have seen this time and time again this year---straight shots at the QB left and right. Rushers left totally unblocked. This will rattle ANY QB. To Skelton's credit is he tries as best as he can to remain poised--and he does not play afraid---but this is what pressure does---it makes the QB hurry his throws, and in hurrying his throws, Skelton, like most QBs under duress, tends to release the ball too high.

On the flip-side, did you see what OC Jay Gruden was doing for his rookie QB Andy Dalton? Talk about trying to get a young QB into a rhythm the way Warner would have loved. Gruden was able to buy his young QB much more time than Skelton ever got, by calling an array of play action passes and bootlegs. Just those extra seconds of time allowed Dalton to have 200 yards of passing in the first half.

One of the real turning points in the game, imo, was in the 2nd quarter when the Cardinals were starting to close in on Dalton faster---and Dalton threw up a duck that inexplicably Kerry Rhodes whiffed on. That pass was gift-wrapped and an interception there, with the Cardinals only trailing 10-0, could have changed the whole game---pretty much like the week before versus Cleveland when the offense was able to score a TD in the 2nd quarter that set the tone for a good second half and out the players in the mindset that they were going to come from behind again and prevail.

Even if the Cardinals went into half-time trailing 17-7, they were likely going to win this game.

20-0 at half-time and having dodged what well could have been 26-0, was a much more formidable task.

And yet---yet---despite an array of simply bonehead penalties from Wilson, Dockett and Adams---and an inexplicable fumbled snap on first and goal at the Bengals' one yard line---the Cardinals STILL had a very good chance to win the game.

The two Benson fumbles were huge---because they are so rare to begin with. Daryl Washington was outstanding in this game---and even after Patrick Peterson was sidelined, A.J. Jefferson and Richard Marshall---and the with some of the best over the top safety help of the season from Wilson, Rhodes and Johnson, were able to stifle the Bengal passing game.

As for Skelton---when the team needs to go into full passing mode---he's at his best. That's when he gets his rhythm.

Beanie Wells has been running banged up---which has made it even more difficult for the coaches to commit to the run. To Beanie's credit, he is still lunging forward for good extra yards, like the clutch way he did on 4th and 2 amidst heavy traffic on the toss stretch/sweep left.

What was great about the Doucet play at the end was that Skelton saw it---on a play where he normally is trying to hit the underneath WR. But Doucet stopped his route and started backpedalling, two no-nos at one time---which make it difficult on the QB---and much harder for the WR to adjust to the ball.

What I would want to know---is what would happen if the coaches just opened up the passing game and commit to right from the start versus the Seahawks---

Now, that said---Mike Zimmer obviously studied the Seahawks' tape of how they beat the Cardinals, because Pete Carroll has had the Cardinals' offense and its biggest vulnerabilities down pat---what he simply does is outnumber the weak-side edge so that he can send the edge straight to the QB---now on some plays that edge could be the DE, the OLB, the SS, the FS or the CB---which is the confusion he creates---just as Zimmer did.

So---how do you counter?

1. Even if your RB is lined up in the shotgun to the strong side of the formation---on the snap he has to slide to the weak-side.

2. You motion the RB to that side and then use him to block the edge, or as a hot receiver.

3. You motion the TE to add the extra blocker---(note: if Carroll sees this his players will know that the strong side has shifted and there will be edge overload blitz options to the side the TE just vacated---the whole premise is to outnumber the protection to wherever the weak side of the formation is or whatever it becomes).

4. You run sprint action, shifted pocket or bootlegs away from it, with a variety of zig-zag and comeback routes.

5. You drag the strong-side TE across to the vacated weak side and keep it clear by having the weak-side WR run a go or deep post.

6. Best of all you keep two RBs in and run max protection. 2 TE sets are good counters as well---that and bunch WR sets, as the Cardinals did to get Doucet free.

So---what the Cardinals need to see, imo, is what Skelton and the offense would look like if early on they pass to set up the run instead of the opposite.

Why is this a better option for teams in the NFL today? You are passing against stacked boxes and running versus 5 & 6 DBs---it's that simple and is significantly easier to do than running versus stacked boxes and passing versus 5 & 6 DBs.

What made Kurt so good is if he saw a run defense, stacked box, he audibled to a pass, if he saw a pass defense safeties back he ran the ball(sometimes).

Skelton isn't far enough along to do that he either can't read the defense or isn't making the right audible which is what Whiz was complaining about at halftime. The plays were there to be made but Skelton either wasn't making the throw, wasn't seeing the open guy, or wasn't making the right pre snap reads.

Some people are complaining we threw too much early, you're saying we should have fully committed to throwing. I get the point of that but when your QB is whizzing balls to covered players from the start of the game I'm not sure too many NFL coaches are going to respond with lets pass every down.

Skelton isn't ready to run this offense yet he doesn't read defenses well enough it's why it often takes him 3 quarters to play well, he needs that much time to see what the defense is REALLY doing.

Kolb apparently can't stay healthy so it's very important for the cards that Skelton improve in that area. We know he's booksmart, we need to find out if he's football smart.

I agree Rhodes not making that play really hurt us very weird he mis timed his jump and I'm not sure he even had to jump in the first place.

 

[Garthshort]

Mitch and Russ, thank you both. Good points, good reads.

 

[DoTheDew]

Great post- the only caveat I have is that the Cardinals did call play action at least 5 times. Skelton was sacked on two of them. Once before he even had a chance to look back upfield.

 

[LarryStalling]

Thank you Mitch. I agree with you that the play calling early in the games is suspect. You would think by now that the coaches would learn to play to Skelton's stregnths by throwing the ball downfield. It sure would help, as you say, if the OL and OC would help with providing him some more time by improving protection and schemes.

 

[football karma]

here is the reality that Whis and Beanie have both admitted to-

Beanie's knee has impacted the offense in two ways:
1. His carries have to be limited both for the game, and even in a given offensive series
2. He is really limited to downhill only runs ( the off tackle). He has a hard time planting and cutting upfield

sadly-- the real problem is a lack of depth at the RB position. Chester Taylor is only effective as a pass protector and outlet receiver. the Hypen is similar -- only as a 3rd down back. I am not sure why they have Alphonso Smith on the roster -- other than specials maybe.

 

[conraddobler]

The crux of the matter is there is only so much you can do to substitute for a QB's autonomous decision making skills.

The book on Skelton from now until he figures defenses out will be to pressure the living snot out of him.

It's up to him as it is all QB's to learn to punish a team for doing this and that takes time and reps.

He should be getting this by now, his excuses of being new are wearing off.

By next year he better have that down cause that's all he will see if he dosen't.

I think he'll get it but he's not showing anything to me that says he's a lightning quick learner, he's average at best at this right now, that's pleny good enough if he's given time and he still progresses, that kind of progress comes usually in the off season when the rapid fire nature of the NFL takes a break and gives some time for reflection.

 

[az jam]

Mitch, the best counter is to bring Todd Haley in next year to be the new Offensive Coordinator.

 

[red desert]

Mitch, the best counter is to bring Todd Haley in next year to be the new Offensive Coordinator.

Absolutely! I so hope this happens.

 

[desertdawg]

Good stuff Mitch, last two years, we haven't been able to protect our QB (any of them), especially in the empty spread which has killed drives more times than I can count. They send the house when they see it (all of them), and we never have time to let it develop.

 

[Chopper0080]

Skelton needs to do a better job w/ his pre snap reads before I will start blaming the coaches for our poor offensive performances.

 

[Duckjake]

there is something seriously wrong with the play design or the protection schemes. We have seen this time and time again this year---straight shots at the QB left and right. Rushers left totally unblocked.

Just really frustrating to see this happen over and over every game. Once again we see one of our tackles block down and leave an edge rusher unblocked. That cost the Cards a chance to tie the game Saturday. Not the throw from Skelton or Doucet falling down it was Bridges blocking down and leaving the outside rusher unblocked which forced Skelator to throw under pressure.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Just really frustrating to see this happen over and over every game. Once again we see one of our tackles block down and leave an edge rusher unblocked. That cost the Cards a chance to tie the game Saturday. Not the throw from Skelton or Doucet falling down it was Bridges blocking down and leaving the outside rusher unblocked which forced Skelator to throw under pressure.

This is the most amazing part of the game planning, and I'm not sure whether it's a Whiz or Grimm problem. Regardless, it's just ridiculous. I never watch any other team that allows edge rushers through completely unblocked while doubling on inside rushers. It boggles the mind.

 

[PJ1]

Skelton misses plenty of open receivers when he does get protection. His high throws are of a major concern to me and we see them every game. Not sure if they can improve his accuracy but if not he will never be a legit starter in this league.

 

[Totally_Red]

Mitch, the best counter is to bring Todd Haley in next year to be the new Offensive Coordinator.

Todd did a fantastic with Kurt Warner at the controls. I'm not sure if he's a magic bullet with Kevin Skelton or John Kolb behind center. But it sure wouldn't hurt having him back as O.C. again.

 

[Russ Smith]

This is the most amazing part of the game planning, and I'm not sure whether it's a Whiz or Grimm problem. Regardless, it's just ridiculous. I never watch any other team that allows edge rushers through completely unblocked while doubling on inside rushers. It boggles the mind.

Yeah this is a clear issue and it's gotta be fixed either by firing Grimm or showing him a tape of all the unblocked edge rushers this year so he can see how often it happens, and how destructive it is to our offense.

It worked with Warner because he was so good he knew what was coming before the snap, it's pretty obvious that Anderson, Hall, Skelton, Kolb, Bartell, and Skelton again have not been able to duplicate Warner's success at that.

 

[Shane]

Yeah this is a clear issue and it's gotta be fixed either by firing Grimm or showing him a tape of all the unblocked edge rushers this year so he can see how often it happens, and how destructive it is to our offense.

It worked with Warner because he was so good he knew what was coming before the snap, it's pretty obvious that Anderson, Hall, Skelton, Kolb, Bartell, and Skelton again have not been able to duplicate Warner's success at that.

This year? Been happening sincegrimm arrived!

 

[WildBB]

While it was very disappointing to see John Skelton play three quarters of poor football---but---because of how predictable the Cardinal offense is, did you notice what DC Mike Zimmer was able to do to pressure Skelton into quick decisions? How many times did the Bengal edge rusher have a clear path to Skelton? It was ridiculous.

At half-time, Whisenhunt was telling the FOX crew that Skelton was supposed to know what to do---but---sorry---if the play that is called allows an edge rusher a free shot into the back or into the face of the QB---there is something seriously wrong with the play design or the protection schemes. We have seen this time and time again this year---straight shots at the QB left and right. Rushers left totally unblocked. This will rattle ANY QB. To Skelton's credit is he tries as best as he can to remain poised--and he does not play afraid---but this is what pressure does---it makes the QB hurry his throws, and in hurrying his throws, Skelton, like most QBs under duress, tends to release the ball too high.

On the flip-side, did you see what OC Jay Gruden was doing for his rookie QB Andy Dalton? Talk about trying to get a young QB into a rhythm the way Warner would have loved. Gruden was able to buy his young QB much more time than Skelton ever got, by calling an array of play action passes and bootlegs. Just those extra seconds of time allowed Dalton to have 200 yards of passing in the first half.

I find this to be dead on. They play shotgun to often and are too predictable with average talent on offense. Doesn't work. All the analysts have also ripped on them this year.

This org. FO NEEDS to bring in an independent thinker as offensive co-ordinador to get a better balance of variation in play calling in the game plan from game to game.

 

[cardpa]

As long as Whiz commands the offense this will never get fixed. He is a head coach who still thinks he's the OC. Some one needs to strip him of the reins and allow some one to be the OC without interference from Whiz.

The sad part is that will probably never happen and what we have seen for the last 2 years will continue to perpetuity. There also needs to be established if this offense is pass first or run first not some macabre mix that will never work.

This offense has scored only 31 TDs over 16 games. That is less than 2 TDs per game. The other 4 TDs have been scored by punt returns. What also stands out is the defense has not scored a TD all year. Take away the punt returns and the offense only averages 17.7 PPG.

Only 3 times has this offense scored 27 points or more and in each of those games Kolb was the QB. The best Skelton could do was 21 points twice with this offense.

Go back to last year and these numbers are probably worse. The only consistent in all of this is Whiz being the primary play caller. I have said this before replace the OL coach and bring in a OC that has the freedom to call his own plays and I can almost guarantee this offense pushes its average PPG from the miserable 17.7 to about 23 PPG and that is middle of the pack in the NFL. If this offense was able to average 23 PPG it wins one more and is in OT in two other games. Win one of those OT games and they are looking at a 9-6 record going into this weekend.

We can berate Kolb and Skelton all we want but the real crux of the matter lays in the hands of the coaches and the FO in straightening this offense out.

 

[Chopper0080]

One of the major reasons why Kurt Warner became so successful in the Whisenhunt offense is that Warner was able to convince the coaches that the whole key to the play-calling was to enable him to "get into a rhythm" right from the start. In short, Warner did his best to make the offense QB friendly.

Yes, it meant passing on first downs and passing early and often. One can remember the Chicago game at Soldier Field three years ago when Warner, without the services on Anquan Boldin that day, came out firing the ball down the field left and right. Warner had the Bears' defense on its heels the whole time and the Cardinals jumped out to big lead early and coasted to a win from that point on.

What is happening now early in games is that the coaches are running to set up the pass instead of passing to set up the run. The predictability of this is making it easy for defensive coordinators to prepare for. On first down it will be Wells off-tackle left (75% of the time) and then on 2nd and 5 the Cardinals go into the shotgun. Why? Why not run again? And if not, wouldn't it make even more sense to employ play action in order to keep the linebackers honest?

The point is the Cardinals remain more committed to the passing game than the running game---the running game is still merely a table setter for the passing game.

But as is the case when a team is half-committed to something---it generally does not produce consistent offense.

What Whisenhunt, Miller and Grimm need to decide this off-season is the true direction of the offense. Do they want to be a true running team with play action options? Do they want to open the field up and play catch with surprise run options the way they did when Warner was thriving in the offense?

They cannot expect to do both consistently well.

While it was very disappointing to see John Skelton play three quarters of poor football---but---because of how predictable the Cardinal offense is, did you notice what DC Mike Zimmer was able to do to pressure Skelton into quick decisions? How many times did the Bengal edge rusher have a clear path to Skelton? It was ridiculous.

At half-time, Whisenhunt was telling the FOX crew that Skelton was supposed to know what to do---but---sorry---if the play that is called allows an edge rusher a free shot into the back or into the face of the QB---there is something seriously wrong with the play design or the protection schemes. We have seen this time and time again this year---straight shots at the QB left and right. Rushers left totally unblocked. This will rattle ANY QB. To Skelton's credit is he tries as best as he can to remain poised--and he does not play afraid---but this is what pressure does---it makes the QB hurry his throws, and in hurrying his throws, Skelton, like most QBs under duress, tends to release the ball too high.

On the flip-side, did you see what OC Jay Gruden was doing for his rookie QB Andy Dalton? Talk about trying to get a young QB into a rhythm the way Warner would have loved. Gruden was able to buy his young QB much more time than Skelton ever got, by calling an array of play action passes and bootlegs. Just those extra seconds of time allowed Dalton to have 200 yards of passing in the first half.

One of the real turning points in the game, imo, was in the 2nd quarter when the Cardinals were starting to close in on Dalton faster---and Dalton threw up a duck that inexplicably Kerry Rhodes whiffed on. That pass was gift-wrapped and an interception there, with the Cardinals only trailing 10-0, could have changed the whole game---pretty much like the week before versus Cleveland when the offense was able to score a TD in the 2nd quarter that set the tone for a good second half and out the players in the mindset that they were going to come from behind again and prevail.

Even if the Cardinals went into half-time trailing 17-7, they were likely going to win this game.

20-0 at half-time and having dodged what well could have been 26-0, was a much more formidable task.

And yet---yet---despite an array of simply bonehead penalties from Wilson, Dockett and Adams---and an inexplicable fumbled snap on first and goal at the Bengals' one yard line---the Cardinals STILL had a very good chance to win the game.

The two Benson fumbles were huge---because they are so rare to begin with. Daryl Washington was outstanding in this game---and even after Patrick Peterson was sidelined, A.J. Jefferson and Richard Marshall---and the with some of the best over the top safety help of the season from Wilson, Rhodes and Johnson, were able to stifle the Bengal passing game.

As for Skelton---when the team needs to go into full passing mode---he's at his best. That's when he gets his rhythm.

Beanie Wells has been running banged up---which has made it even more difficult for the coaches to commit to the run. To Beanie's credit, he is still lunging forward for good extra yards, like the clutch way he did on 4th and 2 amidst heavy traffic on the toss stretch/sweep left.

What was great about the Doucet play at the end was that Skelton saw it---on a play where he normally is trying to hit the underneath WR. But Doucet stopped his route and started backpedalling, two no-nos at one time---which make it difficult on the QB---and much harder for the WR to adjust to the ball.

What I would want to know---is what would happen if the coaches just opened up the passing game and commit to right from the start versus the Seahawks---

Now, that said---Mike Zimmer obviously studied the Seahawks' tape of how they beat the Cardinals, because Pete Carroll has had the Cardinals' offense and its biggest vulnerabilities down pat---what he simply does is outnumber the weak-side edge so that he can send the edge straight to the QB---now on some plays that edge could be the DE, the OLB, the SS, the FS or the CB---which is the confusion he creates---just as Zimmer did.

So---how do you counter?

1. Even if your RB is lined up in the shotgun to the strong side of the formation---on the snap he has to slide to the weak-side.

2. You motion the RB to that side and then use him to block the edge, or as a hot receiver.

3. You motion the TE to add the extra blocker---(note: if Carroll sees this his players will know that the strong side has shifted and there will be edge overload blitz options to the side the TE just vacated---the whole premise is to outnumber the protection to wherever the weak side of the formation is or whatever it becomes).

4. You run sprint action, shifted pocket or bootlegs away from it, with a variety of zig-zag and comeback routes.

5. You drag the strong-side TE across to the vacated weak side and keep it clear by having the weak-side WR run a go or deep post.

6. Best of all you keep two RBs in and run max protection. 2 TE sets are good counters as well---that and bunch WR sets, as the Cardinals did to get Doucet free.

So---what the Cardinals need to see, imo, is what Skelton and the offense would look like if early on they pass to set up the run instead of the opposite.

Why is this a better option for teams in the NFL today? You are passing against stacked boxes and running versus 5 & 6 DBs---it's that simple and is significantly easier to do than running versus stacked boxes and passing versus 5 & 6 DBs.

Many teams allow free edge rushers in the NFL as it is a staple to throw defenses out of blitzing just as much as screen plays are. It gives the WR's man coverage which is some of the best coverage to throw against and leads to big plays. Where Skelton fails is identifying the unblocked man, finding his one on one matchups and getting rid of the football. Every high profile offense in the NFL does this, and has success. Where the Cardinals fail is that they don't have a QB that is good enough to make the plays out of it. Blame the Cardinals coaches for not realizing that their Qb's aren't good enough to handle this type of offense, but to see it is ineffective is ignorant.

 

[Chopper0080]

As long as Whiz commands the offense this will never get fixed. He is a head coach who still thinks he's the OC. Some one needs to strip him of the reins and allow some one to be the OC without interference from Whiz.

The sad part is that will probably never happen and what we have seen for the last 2 years will continue to perpetuity. There also needs to be established if this offense is pass first or run first not some macabre mix that will never work.

This offense has scored only 31 TDs over 16 games. That is less than 2 TDs per game. The other 4 TDs have been scored by punt returns. What also stands out is the defense has not scored a TD all year. Take away the punt returns and the offense only averages 17.7 PPG.

Only 3 times has this offense scored 27 points or more and in each of those games Kolb was the QB. The best Skelton could do was 21 points twice with this offense.

Go back to last year and these numbers are probably worse. The only consistent in all of this is Whiz being the primary play caller. I have said this before replace the OL coach and bring in a OC that has the freedom to call his own plays and I can almost guarantee this offense pushes its average PPG from the miserable 17.7 to about 23 PPG and that is middle of the pack in the NFL. If this offense was able to average 23 PPG it wins one more and is in OT in two other games. Win one of those OT games and they are looking at a 9-6 record going into this weekend.

We can berate Kolb and Skelton all we want but the real crux of the matter lays in the hands of the coaches and the FO in straightening this offense out.

The players make the plays, not the coaches. The coaches didn't make Doucet fall, or cause Skelton to throw stupid interceptions. When you have a QB that can't make the presnap reads, it limits the offense's ability to adjust and exploit what the defense is doing. If a defense is blitzing and you have a poor line, you stop the blitz by completing passes to your receivers against man coverage, not by keep more overmatched TEs and RBs in to block.

Blame the coaches for failing to admit that their QBs aren't good enough to run the offense, but you can't blame them for having a poorly conceived offensive scheme because it isn't.

 

[Rats]

The players make the plays, not the coaches. The coaches didn't make Doucet fall, or cause Skelton to throw stupid interceptions. When you have a QB that can't make the presnap reads, it limits the offense's ability to adjust and exploit what the defense is doing. If a defense is blitzing and you have a poor line, you stop the blitz by completing passes to your receivers against man coverage, not by keep more overmatched TEs and RBs in to block.

Blame the coaches for failing to admit that their QBs aren't good enough to run the offense, but you can't blame them for having a poorly conceived offensive scheme because it isn't.

When our offense consistantly struggles for 2 to 3 quarters and then only starts to show life when the OFFENSIVE SCHEME is changed to the hurry up...I think you can blame a poorly conceived offensive scheme for the lack luster starts. There Qbs, at least Jhonny Bones, when the tempo is raised do a much better job and drive the team down the field. The coaches should recognize this and accomodate it in the early gameplan which they haven't.

Knowing you have an injured running back that is not as effective makes it even more on the coaches to change the scheme early and go with a quick tempo rather than the plodding tempo the Cards offense has established early in games. When it is just a couple of sets of downs that they fail to move the team it could be execution. When it is consistantly full Quarters early in the game it is scheme. Especially when they show they can move the team once the hurry up is installed in the game. I fully believe Beanie's injury effected this offense. Whiz and Miller not adjusting to it properly by uping the tempo early in games compounded the problem. Probably lack faith in Skelton and wanted put it on the D to win games.

 

[cardpa]

The players make the plays, not the coaches. The coaches didn't make Doucet fall, or cause Skelton to throw stupid interceptions. When you have a QB that can't make the presnap reads, it limits the offense's ability to adjust and exploit what the defense is doing. If a defense is blitzing and you have a poor line, you stop the blitz by completing passes to your receivers against man coverage, not by keep more overmatched TEs and RBs in to block.

Blame the coaches for failing to admit that their QBs aren't good enough to run the offense, but you can't blame them for having a poorly conceived offensive scheme because it isn't.

Chopper I guess we have to agree to disagree. If there is one thing the coaching staff has to be able to do is identify the abilities of their players and how best to fit them into a system that works for them. This is where Miller, Grimm and Whiz fail miserably.

All you do is invite failure when you know your QB can't make the reads as fast as he needs to and you make no adjustment whatsoever to allow for this. When you fail to recognize that your offensive line is a sieve and you make no adjustments to allow for this and even more so when you sit one of your better linemen because you are pissed at him for being heavier than you want him to be so he goes into your doghouse for over a year. Hell fine the ever living crap out of him until he gets to weight. You can sure as hell bet he will respond to losing money a lot faster than just sitting on the bench.

Not adjusting your offense when your starting RB is hurting and you know he can only give you so many snaps a game. Being so predictable on offense that even you and I know what the call is going to be over 2/3 of the time the other team is going to know it 7/8 of the time.

The sign of good coaching is knowing how to get the best out of the talent available to him and using it to the utmost is how you succeed. You may not always win but you certainly will put the team in its best position to win.

 

[Chopper0080]

Chopper I guess we have to agree to disagree. If there is one thing the coaching staff has to be able to do is identify the abilities of their players and how best to fit them into a system that works for them. This is where Miller, Grimm and Whiz fail miserably. All you do is invite failure when you know your QB can't make the reads as fast as he needs to and you make no adjustment whatsoever to allow for this. When you fail to recognize that your offensive line is a sieve and you make no adjustments to allow for this and even more so when you sit one of your better linemen because you are pissed at him for being heavier than you want him to be so he goes into your doghouse for over a year. Hell fine the ever living crap out of him until he gets to weight. You can sure as hell bet he will respond to losing money a lot faster than just sitting on the bench.

Not adjusting your offense when your starting RB is hurting and you know he can only give you so many snaps a game. Being so predictable on offense that even you and I know what the call is going to be over 2/3 of the time the other team is going to know it 7/8 of the time.

The sign of good coaching is knowing how to get the best out of the talent available to him and using it to the utmost is how you succeed. You may not always win but you certainly will put the team in its best position to win.

See, this is what I agree with. Whis deserves blame for not making Millar adjust the offense to make it easier for the struggling QBs to run. I think that our offensive scheme is incredibly complex and effective, but it has become apparent that it is only as effective as the QB who runs it. If you don't have a QB who can make the pre snap read and get rid of the ball before the free rusher can get to him, our offense looks pretty crappy. BUT, if you have a QB who CAN do that, you have an offense that will lead the league in big plays until teams stop blitzing. We have the big plays, but not the consistency to make teams back out of blitzing.

 

[Proteus]

See, this is what I agree with. Whis deserves blame for not making Millar adjust the offense to make it easier for the struggling QBs to run. I think that our offensive scheme is incredibly complex and effective, but it has become apparent that it is only as effective as the QB who runs it. If you don't have a QB who can make the pre snap read and get rid of the ball before the free rusher can get to him, our offense looks pretty crappy. BUT, if you have a QB who CAN do that, you have an offense that will lead the league in big plays until teams stop blitzing. We have the big plays, but not the consistency to make teams back out of blitzing.

How many quarterbacks could run this system successfuly?