Two DEN/PHO trade proposals

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hcsilla

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Originally posted by Chaplin


Why?
Because Suns don't need McDyess and Penny's contract is much much worse than Camby's.



They're all chronically injured.
Are you really that dull-witted?

Did you finally realize who we give for Camby in this proposal?

Tom Gugliotta.TOM GUGLIOTTA.
Not Shawn Marion, not Stephon Marbury, not Amare Stoudemire, not even Jake Voskuhl but Gugliotta.
Tom Gugliotta.

And we get a chance that we can have a very good PF/C who would fit perfectly plus we are balancing better our team pay-rolls.

What makes you think there is a chance that any of those guys would stay injury-free for a long length of time?
And what makes you think there isn't a chance that a player after chronicle injuries can play very servicable again?

How about Kenny Anderson?Ratliff?Coleman?Maurice Taylor?LaPhonso Ellis?Masburn?Ilgauskas?Manning?
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla


Are you really that dull-witted?

Did you finally realize who we give for Camby in this proposal?

Tom Gugliotta.TOM GUGLIOTTA.
Not Shawn Marion, not Stephon Marbury, not Amare Stoudemire, not even Jake Voskuhl but Gugliotta.
Tom Gugliotta.

And we get a chance that we can have a very good PF/C who would fit perfectly plus we are balancing better our team pay-rolls.


Not as dull-witted as you, it appears. Don't turn this into a playground personal battle.

Again, you are not understanding a word I am saying. How much chance is there that Camby will be a "very good PF/C"? You are way too optimistic about Camby, who is chronically injured. The buy played a minute and a half this year before getting injured again!


How about Kenny Anderson?Ratliff?Coleman?Maurice Taylor?LaPhonso Ellis?Masburn?Ilgauskas?Manning?

Maurice Taylor? Ellis? Manning? Those guys are worthless! Besides, ALL those guys have played close to full seasons since their injuries, so at least they have proven a little that they can play uninjured. Camby has not done that. Yet. Perhaps he will, we don't know, and that's just the point.

At least with Googs, we know what we have, and what we WON'T have after next year.
 

SirStefan32

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Originally posted by Chaplin

At least with Googs, we know what we have, and what we WON'T have after next year.

Right, my point exactly!
I have nothing against Marcus Camby, but I don't want him for 2 more years. Googs is gone after next year, and we don't need anything in return. We are losing Tom Googliota, a zero, nothing, nada.
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by Chaplin
Again, you are not understanding a word I am saying.
I wrote this 3 days ago in my 1st post in this thread:

"Camby's health is a big gamble "

So who doesn't understand who?


How much chance is there that Camby will be a "very good PF/C"?
I don't know.Maybe somewhere between 10% and 30%.

And how much chance is there that Gugliotta will be a "very good PF/C"?
Absolutely zero.
That's one of two points for Suns to make this deal.



Maurice Taylor? Ellis? Manning? Those guys are worthless!
I'm not talking about Ellis and Manning right now but after his chronical injuries.

Manning was a 6th man of the year after two torn ACL's.
Ellis was a good 6th man after his chronical knee injuries.

Taylor is a good backup PF after his chronical Achilles-injury.



Camby has not done that (proving that he can play uninjured). Yet.
And this is exactly the same thing what they said about those guys before those guys INDEED played their 1st close to full season since their injuries.
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by SirStefan32

I have nothing against Marcus Camby, but I don't want him for 2 more years.
Camby's contract is only one year longer BUT ALSO SMALLER than Gugliotta's.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
Camby's contract is only one year longer BUT ALSO SMALLER than Gugliotta's.

What do you mean smaller? Smaller per year? Yes. Smaller in total? No.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
Yes, I meant smaller per year.Of course it's bigger in total.

And how is that better? Oh, because there's still a 25% chance Camby will be injury free. Well, I wouldn't have the patience to roll the dice on a 25% chance on a guy that we're paying more for in the long run.
 

slinslin

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It would be interessting to see how much the move would cost or save the Suns.

They will likely be luxury tax payers next year, so if they can get Camby for Googs they will save twice the difference of their salaries next year and will there even be a luxury tax in 2004/2005?
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by slinslin
It would be interessting to see how much the move would cost or save the Suns.

They will likely be luxury tax payers next year, so if they can get Camby for Googs they will save twice the difference of their salaries next year and will there even be a luxury tax in 2004/2005?
Exactly.

Are you the only one who understands this point what I explained at least 5 times in this thread?
 

elindholm

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Well, hcsilla, I have to admit -- even though no one here likes your trade proposal, we can't seem to agree on which side it's better for. So maybe it isn't quite so bad after all.

I think it would be a pretty good trade for Phoenix. They save some money, even though it's not as much as you're saying, since you're forgetting that the Suns would have to include cash in order to offset Gugliotta's trade kicker. But they save some. They get a player who might be a contributor in exchange for someone who clearly won't be.

I completely disagree that Denver would have any interest in this trade. Taking on Gugliotta's contract right now would seriously hamper them in this summer's free agent market. You have outlined one extremely complicated scenario, involving (by your count) six assumptions. In many other scenarios, Denver just gets screwed. They have worked hard to have their salary flexibility now, and I don't think they would give it up just in order to have some of it later.

In my opinon, there are two other things you are overlooking:

1. Gugliotta reportedly has a "gentleman's agreement" with Colangelo that he won't be traded. If there were a proposed trade that helped the Suns a lot, I can imagine that this agreement might be broken. But your trade helps the Suns only a little. Colangelo (assuming the reports are correct) will probably keep his word.

2. Gugliotta might not take his option. It would be just as easy for everyone involved if Gugliotta declines his option, then immediately signs a two-year contract that exactly matches Camby's. He gets more total money, while the Suns get the same savings (actually more, since they don't have to pay for Gugliotta's trade kicker), keep their draft pick, and don't disrupt their chemistry or reputation.
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by hcsilla
Chaplin, are you really that ******** or you don't want to understand (or to read) what I write?

Gee, I don't know. Can you spell it out for me?

:D
 

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[2. Gugliotta might not take his option. It would be just as easy for everyone involved if Gugliotta declines his option, then immediately signs a two-year contract that exactly matches Camby's. He gets more total money, while the Suns get the same savings (actually more, since they don't have to pay for Gugliotta's trade kicker), keep their draft pick, and don't disrupt their chemistry or reputation. [/B][/QUOTE]



The Suns have progressed beter this year than anyone thought. I think they would be better to take the hiit next year and be done rather than extend it. His contract is a losing proposition. If he can come off the bench and play like he did last night he can help the team. No he is not worth his contract but he can help the team, It will open up big free agent opportunities and the Suns may be able to take it to the next level at that point
 
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elindholm

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I think they would be better to take the hiit next year and be done rather than extend it.

Easy for you to say. It's not your $10 million of luxury tax.
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by Forrestham
No he is not worth his contract but he can help the team, It will open up big free agent opportunities and the Suns may be able to take it to the next level at that point
It won't because Suns team pay-roll will be at least about 53 mil. also in 2004 when Gugliotta's contract will expire.

So I think that Suns won't use their mid-level in 2004 unless they can dump Penny or Outlaw OR Stoudemire improves to that dominant level that it will be reasonable to pay the luxury tax for the legit championship chances.
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by elindholm
I think it would be a pretty good trade for Phoenix. They save some money, even though it's not as much as you're saying, since you're forgetting that the Suns would have to include cash in order to offset Gugliotta's trade kicker. But they save some. They get a player who might be a contributor in exchange for someone who clearly won't be.
I agree.


I completely disagree that Denver would have any interest in this trade. Taking on Gugliotta's contract right now would seriously hamper them in this summer's free agent market. You have outlined one extremely complicated scenario, involving (by your count) six assumptions.
In many other scenarios, Denver just gets screwed. They have worked hard to have their salary flexibility now, and I don't think they would give it up just in order to have some of it later..
Only for the record they DON'T "give up their cap room just in order to have some of it later".
Actually they give up 4.5 mil. cap room this year in this trade and they would get 7.8 mil. additional cap room next offseason.

Yes,I agree, it's possible that DEN would demand more if they are interested in this trade.

What's your opinion would DEN do it if they would get CLE's future 1st instead of Suns "health-protected" 1st?
Or would they do it if Suns would give their own pick without "health-protection"?

In that case would Suns still do this trade?

In my opinon, there are two other things you are overlooking:

1. Gugliotta reportedly has a "gentleman's agreement" with Colangelo that he won't be traded. If there were a proposed trade that helped the Suns a lot, I can imagine that this agreement might be broken. But your trade helps the Suns only a little. Colangelo (assuming the reports are correct) will probably keep his word.

2. Gugliotta might not take his option. It would be just as easy for everyone involved if Gugliotta declines his option, then immediately signs a two-year contract that exactly matches Camby's. He gets more total money, while the Suns get the same savings (actually more, since they don't have to pay for Gugliotta's trade kicker), keep their draft pick, and don't disrupt their chemistry or reputation.

1.Who knows?

2.Good point.
This good idea would cover one of the two points of this trade although I still would do the 2nd "part" of the trade so a health-protected pick for Camby.

BTW,I wouldn't exclude that Suns will do a similar move this offseason what you described under 2.
 

elindholm

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Actually they give up 4.5 mil. cap room this year in this trade and they would get 7.8 mil. additional cap room next offseason.

They have to pay Gugliotta's increased salary, after his trade kicker. Even if Phoenix sends Denver the cash to make up the difference, that still counts as part of Denver's payroll. So they would be giving up more cap room this year.

What's your opinion would DEN do it if they would get CLE's future 1st instead of Suns "health-protected" 1st?
Or would they do it if Suns would give their own pick without "health-protection"?


I don't think so, but I don't know. I think Denver realizes that Camby can be valuable to them as a veteran presence who, when healthy, plays with a lot of heart. Even when Camby is hurt, his Denver teammates can look at him and see the player who led the #8-seed Knicks to the Finals.

In that case would Suns still do this trade?

Phoenix would probably be willing to do it for Cleveland's future first, not "health-protected." But that's only if (1) Colangelo did not promise Gugliotta he won't be traded, and (2) Gugliotta makes it clear that he will accept his option.
 
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hcsilla

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Originally posted by elindholm
Actually they give up 4.5 mil. cap room this year in this trade and they would get 7.8 mil. additional cap room next offseason.

They have to pay Gugliotta's increased salary, after his trade kicker. Even if Phoenix sends Denver the cash to make up the difference, that still counts as part of Denver's payroll. So they would be giving up more cap room this year.

Yes,you are correct here.

I thought that the TK is paying directly to the player and it counts no more against the cap but it still does (damn trade kicker!), you are right.
 

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