Vance Joseph - why does VJ needs to be retained?

[Russ Smith]

Yeah but you're also playing without two of your top three cornerbacks. Blown coverages happen this way. Especially when Budda is being moved into the box to primarily protect the run.


100%. Keim loves being the smartest guy in the room and invest in these Swiss Army Knife players, and we end up paying a higher price for tools that we don't use. Vance is really just looking for the standard tool set.


I thought this was actually Baker's best season. If we had an experienced center fielder playing in his current role, he would have been that guy again.

Yeah I'm not blaming Vance for those issues I'm saying the defense did gift them 21 points yesterday. And the sack Kyler took and subsequent fumbled punt gave them 7. one thing I mentioned yesterday his defense seems to be problematic for plugging guys in with injuries or Covid because it's complex.

The obvious one there is Rasul Douglas who is brilliant in GB and was on our practice squad. From what I read the entire reason Douglas wasn't on our roster is he was having issues learning the scheme we signed him in Sept they took him off our PS in Oct. He'd won a SB as a ST player, had started multiple games for the Panthers, but when we picked him up we put him on the PS because he had to learn the system. I even read a quote from him that said exactly that, the difference in GB was they "put me in a position to make plays", implying their system is easier to pick up so he was able to contribute quicker for them than for us which is why we lost him.

he's an outlier of course but in the current situation with Covid it may be the norm to constantly have to replace guys quickly.

I think if we beat the Rams you can be certain Kliff is back, if we get blown out he might get fired. It would not shock me at all if he got fired if Keim then hired Vance, that just seems to be his MO. To be honest I'm kind of hoping someone hires Vance as their HC so we have to get a new DC. I would think if we can beat the Rams, Vance would be on some short lists, previous experience, playoff win and maybe someone else hires him.

I guess we'll see he's got 7 days to draw up a scheme to beat the Rams. We did it once, we stopped Kupp, but the 2nd game was comical how we let Kupp open so much. Last 3 games 6 TD's 7 picks and before the 5 sack game yesterday against SF he'd only been sacked once total in the prior 2 games and yet had 5 picks. Gotta think Vance has a chance here to scheme up ways to confuse him into throwing more picks, just hope we catch them and Kyler cashes them in.

 

[Russ Smith]

Sigh.

This board has been legit filled with how good the defense has been all season. It practically scored 13 of our points last night.

We lose Philips, Watt, Alford and Wilson for a bunch of games. Then we lost CJ for some games to Covid. Golden and Kennard to Covid. Lawrence missed 4. Vallejo missed 6.

And all these came late in the season. We have had guys out there like Joe Walker and Breon Borders.

And it still ended up joint 9th best scoring D in the league.

And you want to throw all that away and upset the coaching balance, change all the coaching staff on D, bring in a new scheme that guys have to learn from scratch setting back Simmons, Wilson, Collins etc for what?

Because Breon Borders couldn't cover Lockett last night?

Up until about 5 games ago when injuries started hitting Vance was in the conversation for head coaching jobs. I've never been a fan but replacing him after this season would be nuts and it has about a 0% chance of happening.

I don't think he's horrible I've never been a big fan of his and as I said I have this fear that if we were to lose to the Rams and fire Kliff, we'd hire Vance who was terrible as a HC in Denver.

Stupid but I think part of my willingness to part with Vance as DC now is the fear if we keep him, he'll end up the head coach.

 

[BritCard]

I don't think he's horrible I've never been a big fan of his and as I said I have this fear that if we were to lose to the Rams and fire Kliff, we'd hire Vance who was terrible as a HC in Denver.

Stupid but I think part of my willingness to part with Vance as DC now is the fear if we keep him, he'll end up the head coach.

He isn't going anywhere unless hired away so no point wasting energy on the idea. Especially when he's been good most of the year. You can hardly blame him for struggling to cover 3 of the best offensive players in the league with Hamilton and Borders.

 

[Crimson Warrior]

Sigh.

This board has been legit filled with how good the defense has been all season. It practically scored 13 of our points last night.

We lose Philips, Watt, Alford and Wilson for a bunch of games. Then we lost CJ for some games to Covid. Golden and Kennard to Covid. Lawrence missed 4. Vallejo missed 6.

And all these came late in the season. We have had guys out there like Joe Walker and Breon Borders.

And it still ended up joint 9th best scoring D in the league.

And you want to throw all that away and upset the coaching balance, change all the coaching staff on D, bring in a new scheme that guys have to learn from scratch setting back Simmons, Wilson, Collins etc for what?

Because Breon Borders couldn't cover Lockett last night?

Up until about 5 games ago when injuries started hitting Vance was in the conversation for head coaching jobs. I've never been a fan but replacing him after this season would be nuts and it has about a 0% chance of happening.

Sigh.. you're right. VJ is as much a part of the eleven wins as the other team leaders.

He deserves another year with Keim on ten in terms of roster building. It was a superbowl winning roster, truly, but only if DHop and Watt stayed healthy.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah but you're also playing without two of your top three cornerbacks. Blown coverages happen this way. Especially when Budda is being moved into the box to primarily protect the run.


100%. Keim loves being the smartest guy in the room and invest in these Swiss Army Knife players, and we end up paying a higher price for tools that we don't use. Vance is really just looking for the standard tool set.


I thought this was actually Baker's best season. If we had an experienced center fielder playing in his current role, he would have been that guy again.

I think you could argue this but he is essentially playing a Earl Thomas role and I don't believe any of us believe he has that skill set. That said, you probably aren't wrong.

and I don't hate what Vance has done with our secondary. He has kept things very simple. Rarely exposed them. Has made Baker and Thompson into the best S tandem in the league. I actually wish he would take the same approach with the LBs.

 

[Chopper0080]

He isn't going anywhere unless hired away so no point wasting energy on the idea. Especially when he's been good most of the year. You can hardly blame him for struggling to cover 3 of the best offensive players in the league with Hamilton and Borders.

I don't think the coverage of Lockett was the issue. The inability to take away Penny's running was the issue.

Bill Belichick and every good DC in the league plans to take away what you do best and make you beat them another way. Vance actively not doing that is the reason he will never be better than average.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah I'm not blaming Vance for those issues I'm saying the defense did gift them 21 points yesterday. And the sack Kyler took and subsequent fumbled punt gave them 7. one thing I mentioned yesterday his defense seems to be problematic for plugging guys in with injuries or Covid because it's complex.

The obvious one there is Rasul Douglas who is brilliant in GB and was on our practice squad. From what I read the entire reason Douglas wasn't on our roster is he was having issues learning the scheme we signed him in Sept they took him off our PS in Oct. He'd won a SB as a ST player, had started multiple games for the Panthers, but when we picked him up we put him on the PS because he had to learn the system. I even read a quote from him that said exactly that, the difference in GB was they "put me in a position to make plays", implying their system is easier to pick up so he was able to contribute quicker for them than for us which is why we lost him.

he's an outlier of course but in the current situation with Covid it may be the norm to constantly have to replace guys quickly.

I think if we beat the Rams you can be certain Kliff is back, if we get blown out he might get fired. It would not shock me at all if he got fired if Keim then hired Vance, that just seems to be his MO. To be honest I'm kind of hoping someone hires Vance as their HC so we have to get a new DC. I would think if we can beat the Rams, Vance would be on some short lists, previous experience, playoff win and maybe someone else hires him.

I guess we'll see he's got 7 days to draw up a scheme to beat the Rams. We did it once, we stopped Kupp, but the 2nd game was comical how we let Kupp open so much. Last 3 games 6 TD's 7 picks and before the 5 sack game yesterday against SF he'd only been sacked once total in the prior 2 games and yet had 5 picks. Gotta think Vance has a chance here to scheme up ways to confuse him into throwing more picks, just hope we catch them and Kyler cashes them in.

This has been the MO everywhere Vance has been.

 

[Russ Smith]

He isn't going anywhere unless hired away so no point wasting energy on the idea. Especially when he's been good most of the year. You can hardly blame him for struggling to cover 3 of the best offensive players in the league with Hamilton and Borders.

Fair enough although those 2 passing TDs yesterday that's the same mistake we made in the Vikings game 64 yard TD to KJ Osborn to open the game in week 2, almost the same situation the deep safety on that side is Thompson, the CB's are underneath as is Simmons in Coverage. Simmons thinks the CB has osborne, the CB thinks someone else does, Thompson can't get there 64 yard TD. So those bust plays have happened before but I definitely agree on the Borders one.

on the Hamilton one I don't know who was at fault him or Simmons, based on the reactions of the players I'm guessing Simmons was supposed to stay with his man not switch but no way of knowing.

I think the biggest issue we have on defense is the age of our DL and OLB's, healthy like game 1 I think we have a very good defense, just hard to have them all healthy at that age. Best case scenario both Phillips and Watt could be back in limited capacity this Monday. The reports from 2 days ago said Watt intends to try to play. Phillips I don't see any update so I don't know but I got the impression he was one of the guys we were holding out for the playoffs so hopefully he will play.

 

[PJ1]

I do believe injuries had an impact on our D. This D healthy is just ok. Start taking away starting corners and numerous games lost on the D line and we have big problems. Would not shed a tear if VJ signed somewhere but he is not getting fired in my opinion.

 

[BritCard]

I don't think the coverage of Lockett was the issue. The inability to take away Penny's running was the issue.

Bill Belichick and every good DC in the league plans to take away what you do best and make you beat them another way. Vance actively not doing that is the reason he will never be better than average.

You say that, but we handled the run pretty well until the end of the game. I'm not sure why it went tits up then. Maybe someone came out hurt I missed? But this is how the game went.


(14:48 - 1st) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 29 for 4 yards (I.Simmons).
(14:24 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny left tackle to SEA 49 for 20 yards (K.Peterson, J.Thompson).
(13:47 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 45 for 6 yards (C.Peters).
(10:55 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny left tackle pushed ob at SEA 32 for 10 yards (A.Hamilton).
(10:31 - 1st) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson left end to SEA 32 for no gain (Z.Allen).
(9:15 - 1st) R.Wilson up the middle to SEA 43 for 2 yards (C.Peters).
(8:20 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 48 for -2 yards (I.Simmons, M.Golden).
(11:44 - 2nd) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 27 for 2 yards (B.Baker, M.Dogbe).
(9:05 - 2nd) R.Penny right end to ARZ 17 for no gain (M.Dogbe).
(3:40 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny right end to SEA 29 for no gain (J.Thompson).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 42 for 7 yards (J.Hicks; I.Simmons).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 34 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).
(1:58 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 4 yards (Z.Allen; J.Hicks).

That's the whole 1st half. 61 yards rushing on 13 attempts. Not great but not awful.

(11:02 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (C.Peters; J.Thompson).
(9:25 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (Z.Allen).
(8:54 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 30 for 2 yards (D.Kennard).
(7:30 - 3rd) D.Dallas up the middle to ARZ 49 for 1 yard (M.Dogbe, I.Simmons).
(6:51 - 3rd) R.Penny left tackle to ARZ 49 for no gain (L.Fotu; C.Jones).
(4:01 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 44 for 7 yards (J.Hicks).

At this point near the end of the 3rd 19 for 77 at 4.05 per carry. Then the wheels came off.

(2:44 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 25 for 29 yards (B.Baker).
(15:00 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 5 for 5 yards (D.Kennard).
(14:09 - 4th) R.Penny right end to ARZ 4 for 1 yard (M.Golden, J.Hicks).
(13:15 - 4th) Russell Wilson 4 Yard Rush for TD
(5:30 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 38 for 2 yards (D.Kennard; C.Peters).
(4:34 - 4th) Rashaad Penny 62 Yard Rush for TD
(1:12 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 38 for 9 yards (B.Murphy).
(1:06 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).

8 for 120 yards on the last 8 rushes of the game.

Where this game was lost which I haven't seen covered much was Praters ******** pulled kick. That turned the momentum. But also running at the end of the game.

 

[Chopper0080]

You say that, but we handled the run pretty well until the end of the game. I'm not sure why it went tits up then. Maybe someone came out hurt I missed? But this is how the game went.


(14:48 - 1st) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 29 for 4 yards (I.Simmons).
(14:24 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny left tackle to SEA 49 for 20 yards (K.Peterson, J.Thompson).
(13:47 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 45 for 6 yards (C.Peters).
(10:55 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny left tackle pushed ob at SEA 32 for 10 yards (A.Hamilton).
(10:31 - 1st) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson left end to SEA 32 for no gain (Z.Allen).
(9:15 - 1st) R.Wilson up the middle to SEA 43 for 2 yards (C.Peters).
(8:20 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 48 for -2 yards (I.Simmons, M.Golden).
(11:44 - 2nd) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 27 for 2 yards (B.Baker, M.Dogbe).
(9:05 - 2nd) R.Penny right end to ARZ 17 for no gain (M.Dogbe).
(3:40 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny right end to SEA 29 for no gain (J.Thompson).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 42 for 7 yards (J.Hicks; I.Simmons).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 34 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).
(1:58 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 4 yards (Z.Allen; J.Hicks).

That's the whole 1st half. 61 yards rushing on 13 attempts. Not great but not awful.

(11:02 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (C.Peters; J.Thompson).
(9:25 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (Z.Allen).
(8:54 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 30 for 2 yards (D.Kennard).
(7:30 - 3rd) D.Dallas up the middle to ARZ 49 for 1 yard (M.Dogbe, I.Simmons).
(6:51 - 3rd) R.Penny left tackle to ARZ 49 for no gain (L.Fotu; C.Jones).
(4:01 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 44 for 7 yards (J.Hicks).

At this point near the end of the 3rd 19 for 77 at 4.05 per carry. Then the wheels came off.

(2:44 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 25 for 29 yards (B.Baker).
(15:00 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 5 for 5 yards (D.Kennard).
(14:09 - 4th) R.Penny right end to ARZ 4 for 1 yard (M.Golden, J.Hicks).
(13:15 - 4th) Russell Wilson 4 Yard Rush for TD
(5:30 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 38 for 2 yards (D.Kennard; C.Peters).
(4:34 - 4th) Rashaad Penny 62 Yard Rush for TD
(1:12 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 38 for 9 yards (B.Murphy).
(1:06 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).

8 for 120 yards on the last 8 rushes of the game.

Where this game was lost which I haven't seen covered much was Praters ******** pulled kick. That turned the momentum. But also running at the end of the game.

Yeah. I believe that the end of the game is what killed us which is why I said what I said.

 

[Russ Smith]

You say that, but we handled the run pretty well until the end of the game. I'm not sure why it went tits up then. Maybe someone came out hurt I missed? But this is how the game went.


(14:48 - 1st) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 29 for 4 yards (I.Simmons).
(14:24 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny left tackle to SEA 49 for 20 yards (K.Peterson, J.Thompson).
(13:47 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 45 for 6 yards (C.Peters).
(10:55 - 1st) (Shotgun) R.Penny left tackle pushed ob at SEA 32 for 10 yards (A.Hamilton).
(10:31 - 1st) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Wilson left end to SEA 32 for no gain (Z.Allen).
(9:15 - 1st) R.Wilson up the middle to SEA 43 for 2 yards (C.Peters).
(8:20 - 1st) (No Huddle) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 48 for -2 yards (I.Simmons, M.Golden).
(11:44 - 2nd) R.Penny right tackle to SEA 27 for 2 yards (B.Baker, M.Dogbe).
(9:05 - 2nd) R.Penny right end to ARZ 17 for no gain (M.Dogbe).
(3:40 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny right end to SEA 29 for no gain (J.Thompson).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 42 for 7 yards (J.Hicks; I.Simmons).
(2:34 - 2nd) (No Huddle, Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 34 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).
(1:58 - 2nd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 4 yards (Z.Allen; J.Hicks).

That's the whole 1st half. 61 yards rushing on 13 attempts. Not great but not awful.

(11:02 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (C.Peters; J.Thompson).
(9:25 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 28 for 3 yards (Z.Allen).
(8:54 - 3rd) (Shotgun) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 30 for 2 yards (D.Kennard).
(7:30 - 3rd) D.Dallas up the middle to ARZ 49 for 1 yard (M.Dogbe, I.Simmons).
(6:51 - 3rd) R.Penny left tackle to ARZ 49 for no gain (L.Fotu; C.Jones).
(4:01 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 44 for 7 yards (J.Hicks).

At this point near the end of the 3rd 19 for 77 at 4.05 per carry. Then the wheels came off.

(2:44 - 3rd) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 25 for 29 yards (B.Baker).
(15:00 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 5 for 5 yards (D.Kennard).
(14:09 - 4th) R.Penny right end to ARZ 4 for 1 yard (M.Golden, J.Hicks).
(13:15 - 4th) Russell Wilson 4 Yard Rush for TD
(5:30 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to SEA 38 for 2 yards (D.Kennard; C.Peters).
(4:34 - 4th) Rashaad Penny 62 Yard Rush for TD
(1:12 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 38 for 9 yards (B.Murphy).
(1:06 - 4th) R.Penny up the middle to ARZ 30 for 8 yards (I.Simmons).

8 for 120 yards on the last 8 rushes of the game.

Where this game was lost which I haven't seen covered much was Praters ******** pulled kick. That turned the momentum. But also running at the end of the game.

I assume you mean Lee's fumbled punt?

That infuriated me for a veteran you just don't expect him to panic like that when he gets pressure. It was Wards fault he was the one Homer beat to get pressure but still if lee just goes ahead and kicks it he MIGHT get a roughing call and if Homer blocks the punt it still may go forward or go out the back of the endzone for a Safety. What Lee did was worst case scenario gave them an easy TD.

The start of that whole thing was Kyler taking a sack he didn't need to take too.

 

[BritCard]

I assume you mean Lee's fumbled punt?

That infuriated me for a veteran you just don't expect him to panic like that when he gets pressure. It was Wards fault he was the one Homer beat to get pressure but still if lee just goes ahead and kicks it he MIGHT get a roughing call and if Homer blocks the punt it still may go forward or go out the back of the endzone for a Safety. What Lee did was worst case scenario gave them an easy TD.

The start of that whole thing was Kyler taking a sack he didn't need to take too.

It was quite clear he could have kicked it. He just stopped his kick mid action. It was weird.

 

[oaken1]

Okay... I kinda stumped for VJ this season.... I'm a results guy and 3rd overall scoring defense is fantastic results.

but god that soft scheme suxx azz... we need to attack, we have the players to attack. But we dont attack.

I wont lose any sleep if Joseph is let go. But I like his overall result...

starting the season we all bemoaned the complete lack of talent, or even the lack of a legit starter in the secondary.... but until the past couple weeks they have been the strongest unit on the defense....a draft pick and a FA fixes any issues in the secondary.

in the second layer of our defense is where we see scheme problems I think... strange coverage assignments coupled with complexity that many guys just cannot grasp... we still see assignment issues with Simmons... I am not totally surprised by that since he is a safety,...I said it before he was drafted and it remains true...dude is a big ass safety...but he aint a linebacker.... its the view you see... linebackers see a crowd and they read and react quickly off that...safeties have more of a birds eye view, they see more of a play developing, then they react off that....IMO this is why we often see simmons hesitate before moving on a play, he isnt certain.... But we already got Baker, so what ya gonna do?
two years in a row we have watched our rooks sit...simmons development went as I expected last year...I mentioned early on he wouldnt see significant snaps till around november and that was about right... I expected the same type of schedule with collins.... but no,.... then they move him to OLB. as mentioned, the scheme limits player versatility... but my concern is,... are they learning to be NFL linebackers?? How are they being taught the scheme and where they fit in to it?
Ive never played nfl ball but I have coached lots of sports and been in business. Responsibilities are delegated... the boss holds a meeting with management, then management relays that info to their people.
I might be wrong here, but my guess is, Vance Joseph is not teaching the players his scheme... the position coaches are...... maybe its Billy Davis thats holding back our young backers?? I know the guy gets some love because he coached Pace and Dansby to good years.... but at least in Dansby's case, the talent level was through the roof. Maybe Davis doesnt understand the system well enough to teach it properly to the players?? I dunno

then D Line..we have a combination of older players and 5th and 6th round draft picks.... in what looks like a system that relies on player talent to make plays... nobody seems to be schemed into a play behind the line of scrimmage.

due to blackouts I had to watch the niners and rams yesterday... San Francisco devastated the rams O Line with their front four on defense...... had me thinking how much better our entire defense would look if we had those four guys up front.
they were winning one on one battle all day long... nearly the entire game...four man rush, over and over again... we do that and opposing QB's have time to take some gatorade before they pass the ball......
based on that.... Im not really thinking the issue is Buckner so much as its a total lack of talent on the D line... I mean hell, two of those guys were from the same draft, in the afterthought rounds right?? or was it three of them?? Lawrence, Fotu, ? Then Allen and Dogbe the following year? I am pretty firm that unless a guy is truly exceptional it takes three years for a trench guy to develop...so they may get a little better... But it sure would help to get at least one...truly exceptional...kinda guy on the D line.

So I dunno about Vance... they wanna fire him? fine, I dont care... the overall results were solid when you look at the ingredients... with the exception of the linebacker position. Much of our defensive woes are directly related in one way or another..

if we fire Vance, fire his entire staff and start from scratch... but if we dont fire Vance... then I would certainly fire Billy Davis... the disconnect in his unit is directly responsible for many of the defensive failures.... he was on our SB staff... yeehaw... but here we are a decade later,...and he is still doing the same job

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Surely you jest. Yes, the defense did those things. So what does it tell you that the defense did 5 or 6 worse things that killed the team? That the defense also made an epic crap ton of mistakes and didn't do enough to give the offense a chance to win. Not that I think the offense would have done enough given the chance.

It boils down to defense netted -24 points and offense netted +16. Neither is a winning recipe. Combined it’s an 8 point loss. And I’m Captain Obvious!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Here is another reason to get rid of VJ

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Seattle Rushing

	CAR	YDS	AVG	TD	LONG
Rashaad Penny	23	190	8.3	1	62
Russell Wilson	4	5	1.3	1	4
Travis Homer	1	4	4.0	0	4
Tyler Lockett	1	2	2.0	0	2
DeeJay Dallas	1	1	1.0	0	1
TEAM	30	202	6.7	2	62

Cmon, four of the five guys rushed for an average of 1.71 yards per carry. We just blew it with one guy.

Am I doing it right?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah I'm not blaming Vance for those issues I'm saying the defense did gift them 21 points yesterday. And the sack Kyler took and subsequent fumbled punt gave them 7. one thing I mentioned yesterday his defense seems to be problematic for plugging guys in with injuries or Covid because it's complex.

The obvious one there is Rasul Douglas who is brilliant in GB and was on our practice squad. From what I read the entire reason Douglas wasn't on our roster is he was having issues learning the scheme we signed him in Sept they took him off our PS in Oct. He'd won a SB as a ST player, had started multiple games for the Panthers, but when we picked him up we put him on the PS because he had to learn the system. I even read a quote from him that said exactly that, the difference in GB was they "put me in a position to make plays", implying their system is easier to pick up so he was able to contribute quicker for them than for us which is why we lost him.

he's an outlier of course but in the current situation with Covid it may be the norm to constantly have to replace guys quickly.

I think if we beat the Rams you can be certain Kliff is back, if we get blown out he might get fired. It would not shock me at all if he got fired if Keim then hired Vance, that just seems to be his MO. To be honest I'm kind of hoping someone hires Vance as their HC so we have to get a new DC. I would think if we can beat the Rams, Vance would be on some short lists, previous experience, playoff win and maybe someone else hires him.

I guess we'll see he's got 7 days to draw up a scheme to beat the Rams. We did it once, we stopped Kupp, but the 2nd game was comical how we let Kupp open so much. Last 3 games 6 TD's 7 picks and before the 5 sack game yesterday against SF he'd only been sacked once total in the prior 2 games and yet had 5 picks. Gotta think Vance has a chance here to scheme up ways to confuse him into throwing more picks, just hope we catch them and Kyler cashes them in.

Even if we get our doors blown in I don’t see kliff getting canned. How could keim call him coach of the year just last week and then two weeks later fire him? Not gonna happen imo.

 

[Stout]

Even if we get our doors blown in I don’t see kliff getting canned. How could keim call him coach of the year just last week and then two weeks later fire him? Not gonna happen imo.

Easy, if Keim is fired too. Don't think it'll happen, though.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Easy, if Keim is fired too. Don't think it'll happen, though.

Well yeah. But I don’t expect the impossible.

 

[wit3card]

I don't think the coverage of Lockett was the issue. The inability to take away Penny's running was the issue.

Bill Belichick and every good DC in the league plans to take away what you do best and make you beat them another way. Vance actively not doing that is the reason he will never be better than average.

This is point on. Vance Josephs D is too complicated and often doesn't take away anything while trying to bend and not break. But for that type of D his D is too complicated and often lets the opponent score easy big chunk TD. All year I only recall 1 or 2 games where there wasn't a big chunk play let down by our D. That is a system that can work, but often doesn't.

Our D gave up 3 easy TD -21 pt and opend up 14 points for the O which is a net - of 7 and the ST than added another -7 (Lee fumbled Punt) which made us -14 we lost with 8 points.

Which means if one of this 2 doesn't happen we win. Was the O perfect? No. Was ST and D awful yes, clearly.

Look overall, we might all agree, that Vance Joseph is an average to below average DC that has sometimes a really great day and can destroy a really good O. But overall he puts the O under pressure. We see why he was let go by other teams. If our O would be worse (like the last 2 years or without D. Hop and not getting in synch) you are quite sure that you lose. Look Seattle didn't play great, but still D and ST let them score easy and Seattle D played 2 good drives and the game was done. Seattle came to win because it probably was there last dance, and they did because ST and D didn't play well and the O played average but still good enough to win. O scored 16 points on Seattle. Seattle got a raglia of 28 points that makes 16 - 10 a well fought typical Seattle - Cards scoring game. 30-38 was atypical. 30 points in most of the games in the last decade would have been enough to win easily.

But overall, I would lke that someone is hiring Vance and we sign someone else, Fangio would be great or maybe Zimmer or so.

 

[Ragnar]

honestly the chances of the cards going one and done next week are excellent,face it…..and if that does happen I’d kick VJ to curb in a heartbeat and make a concerted effort to bring in Fangio, don’t see Zimmer taking a DC position . VJ has had his chances and pretty much did a face plant .

 

[kerouac9]

The 2021 Arizona Cardinals were 11th in points and yardage against.

Sixth in total defensive DVOA and ninth in weighted defensive DVOA.

What do you think a change of leadership would accomplish? This would be a top five defense?

 

[Snakester]

He doesn’t. His zone defense has to go. Find a DC that has a clue what to do with defensive backs and that plays man.

 

[Stout]

He doesn’t. His zone defense has to go. Find a DC that has a clue what to do with defensive backs and that plays man.

And will work his system to fit in skilled players and play them to their strengths.

 

[DVontel]

He doesn’t. His zone defense has to go. Find a DC that has a clue what to do with defensive backs and that plays man.

What if I told you we don’t have the CBs to play man?