What QB Will We Draft in 1st Round?

[Bodha]

Not 1st round



They always


always



always fall.


We can pick up a good one in the 2nd, ala Andy Dalton.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Posts like these. That's why nobody takes your posts seriously.

Those smiley faces aren't a disguise, they're not a shield. They don't make a cheap shot anything other than a cheap shot. You're letting your devotion to Kolb bring out the worst in you.

Steve

 

[Mulli]

Thread is circling the drain...

 

[desertdawg]

Those smiley faces aren't a disguise, they're not a shield. They don't make a cheap shot anything other than a cheap shot. You're letting your devotion to Kolb bring out the worst in you.

Steve

!!!!!

 

[kerouac9]

Not 1st round



They always


always



always fall.


We can pick up a good one in the 2nd, ala Andy Dalton.

Andy Dalton just got beat by the Cleveland Browns. Take a look at your history and let me know all the good QBs who were taken between 20 and 60 overall whose names aren't Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees.

And I say this as someone who still believe that Chad Henne can be a good quarterback.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Posts like these. That's why nobody takes your posts seriously.

Rich and compelling, per usual. At 13 posts per day, you'd figure you have the time to articulate some of your positions outside of calling people whiners.

Oh, I forgot.

 

[desertdawg]

Rich and compelling, per usual. At 13 posts per day, you'd figure you have the time to articulate some of your positions outside of calling people whiners.

Oh, I forgot.

I apologize. And i bumped my elite list up from 5 to 7 or 8 because I looked at Choppers list and counted them up. Which is just my opinion, so me being wrong on it is your opinion, no moving no field goal posts. I didn't recount to make me right on anything, I recounted because I read a list of someone else's opinions. Knock my post count all you like, it is pretty funny.

 

[Gaddabout]

You don't need a great qb for what? To putter around and just hope you sneak in the playoffs? The facts are obvious: the NFL is a QB driven league, and while they're are rare exceptions, if you don't have a great to elite QB, you ain't competing for a championship.

If you're not competing for a championship, or building to that, what is the point? We need a great to elite QB immediately, and until we get one, we shouldn't expect anything but mediocrity.

If you can find an elite QB in this next draft, let us know. I don't see one. I do see a lot of pretenders, though. And that's always fun -- drafting a high 1st-round pick on a QB who won't be in the league in 5 years.

 

[Bodha]

Andy Dalton just got beat by the Cleveland Browns.

Take a look at your history and let me know all the good QBs who were taken between 20 and 60 overall whose names aren't Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees.

Ill take Andy Dalton in a heartbeat.

Im referring to this group of QBs this year especially. The "will they pan out" type guys like this group always fall. Especially since the top 2 guys, Geno and Barks, arent THAT great. If the 2nd best QB is taken at 9 or 10, you can bet the 3rd and 4th will be around in the 2nd.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

If you can find an elite QB in this next draft, let us know. I don't see one. I do see a lot of pretenders, though. And that's always fun -- drafting a high 1st-round pick on a QB who won't be in the league in 5 years.

While there isn't a Luck or RGIII at this point, it's still pretty early in the year. Here is a mock draft from last year at this point that has RGIII at pick 42. (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...drafts-college-football-prospects-andrew-luck)

I think it's way too early to give up on the entire 2012 QB class.

There is obviously a chance that we'll draft a qb that sucks, but that wouldn't be a major change from our current situation, and there is at least a chance that he turns into a great to elite starter.

Whether by trade, FA or draft, we need to acquire a franchise QB, and until we do, we're just wasting time.

 

[kerouac9]

Ill take Andy Dalton in a heartbeat.

Im referring to this group of QBs this year especially. The "will they pan out" type guys like this group always fall. Especially since the top 2 guys, Geno and Barks, arent THAT great. If the 2nd best QB is taken at 9 or 10, you can bet the 3rd and 4th will be around in the 2nd.

So... When you said "they always... always... always fall," what you meant is that some probably will fall. When the draft happens. In six months. Good to know.

If they're good prospects, they won't fall. That didn't happen two years ago when Cam went #1, then Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder were all gobbled up in the next 11 picks.

It's almost a rule that if there isn't a good quarterback in the first 20 picks, there probably isn't a good one in the draft. It was said that Jimmy Clausen, Tim Tebow, and Colt McCoy were fantastic values that "dropped" on draft day, but it turned out the NFL scouts were right. Those guys just stunk.

If you have a guy that you think can start for you at quarterback, you don't pussyfoot around on it and hope to scoop him up later. You go and get him. You don't try and hedge your bets and get value for a starter half a round later.

 

[kerouac9]

While there isn't a Luck or RGIII at this point, it's still pretty early in the year. Here is a mock draft from last year at this point that has RGIII at pick 42. (http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...drafts-college-football-prospects-andrew-luck)

I think it's way too early to give up on the entire 2012 QB class.

There is obviously a chance that we'll draft a qb that sucks, but that wouldn't be a major change from our current situation, and there is at least a chance that he turns into a great to elite starter.

Whether by trade, FA or draft, we need to acquire a franchise QB, and until we do, we're just wasting time.

UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT: "Franchise" QBs are overrated. Eli Manning wasn't considered a Franchise QB by the hoi polloi even after he won his first Super Bowl. He wasn't considered one by the public even before he won his second. He's considered one now because only by virtue of having won two Super Bowls.

Drew Brees and Peyton Manning may be the best pure passers of this generation. They have two titles between them. More damningly, they only have two trips to the Super Bowl between them. So what's the point?

If you have an above-average passer like Chopper's list, you have a chance to win your division and maybe get a bye through the first round of the playoffs. That's all you can hope for. The problem with the Franchise quarterback who is going to eat up $150 million in cap space over eight years is that it prevents you from building around him unless your front office is exceptional.

Happened to Indy, and they were left holding the bag when Peyton got hurt.
Happened to New England, and now they're .500 and got beat by us and Seattle.
Happened to Pittsburgh, and they may finish 2012 3rd in the AFC North.
It's just happened to New Orleans.

 

[Mulli]

UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT: "Franchise" QBs are overrated. Eli Manning wasn't considered a Franchise QB by the hoi polloi even after he won his first Super Bowl. He wasn't considered one by the public even before he won his second. He's considered one now because only by virtue of having won two Super Bowls.

Drew Brees and Peyton Manning may be the best pure passers of this generation. They have two titles between them. More damningly, they only have two trips to the Super Bowl between them. So what's the point?

If you have an above-average passer like Chopper's list, you have a chance to win your division and maybe get a bye through the first round of the playoffs. That's all you can hope for. The problem with the Franchise quarterback who is going to eat up $150 million in cap space over eight years is that it prevents you from building around him unless your front office is exceptional.

Happened to Indy, and they were left holding the bag when Peyton got hurt.
Happened to New England, and now they're .500 and got beat by us and Seattle.
Happened to Pittsburgh, and they may finish 2012 3rd in the AFC North.
It's just happened to New Orleans.

Full circle, K9. I think we have this discussion every year. Indy, NE, Pitt, NO...All Super Bowl winners.

I would take that. And which of those had fantastic elite LT's? Or CB's?

 

[kerouac9]

Full circle, K9. I think we have this discussion every year. Indy, NE, Pitt, NO...All Super Bowl winners.

I would take that. And which of those had fantastic elite LT's? Or CB's?

New England hasn't won a Super Bowl in a decade. I'd take a Super Bowl win, but I'm not going to spit on 7 division titles in 10 years and two trips to the Super Bowl, either. Even if they're losses.

My argument isn't that you can win the NFC with Kevin Kolb and John Skelton tag-teaming as your quarterbacks. It's really, really difficult to win a Conference with a bad quarterback--you need to have a great defense.

We have a good defense. If we had an average quarterback (anyone above Mark Sanchez), we'd be walking away with this division.

Remember when Kevin Kolb chest-thumpers were pushing him as an MVP candidate? That was fun.

 

[Mulli]

New England hasn't won a Super Bowl in a decade. I'd take a Super Bowl win, but I'm not going to spit on 7 division titles in 10 years and two trips to the Super Bowl, either. Even if they're losses.

My argument isn't that you can win the NFC with Kevin Kolb and John Skelton tag-teaming as your quarterbacks. It's really, really difficult to win a Conference with a bad quarterback--you need to have a great defense.

We have a good defense. If we had an average quarterback (anyone above Mark Sanchez), we'd be walking away with this division.

Remember when Kevin Kolb chest-thumpers were pushing him as an MVP candidate? That was fun.

Uh, your argument that I was addressing was that franchise QB's were overrated.

 

[kerouac9]

Uh, your argument that I was addressing was that franchise QB's were overrated.

Why do you want to fight? I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'd love to have a legit Top 3 QB here. I think that part of the issue I have is what are we talking about when we talk about Franchise QBs. If we're talking about a third of the starters in the league, then whatever. If we're talking about the three best QBs, then I disagree that you have to sell out to get one.

I just hate the assertion that if you're not going to win the Super Bowl, you're better off just not fielding a team. That's nonsense. A successful season is one where you win your division and host a playoff game. Everything after that is a crap shoot, but you can control the outcome up to that point.

 

[Mulli]

Why do you want to fight? I think we're talking about the same thing.

I'd love to have a legit Top 3 QB here. I think that part of the issue I have is what are we talking about when we talk about Franchise QBs. If we're talking about a third of the starters in the league, then whatever. If we're talking about the three best QBs, then I disagree that you have to sell out to get one.

I just hate the assertion that if you're not going to win the Super Bowl, you're better off just not fielding a team. That's nonsense. A successful season is one where you win your division and host a playoff game. Everything after that is a crap shoot, but you can control the outcome up to that point.

 

[Bodha]

So... When you said "they always... always... always fall," what you meant is that some probably will fall. When the draft happens. In six months. Good to know.

Will you relax, this just speculation.

If they're good prospects, they won't fall. That didn't happen two years ago when Cam went #1, then Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, and Christian Ponder were all gobbled up in the next 11 picks.

So youre saying, in addition to Luck, RG3, and Wilson last year, 5 QBs were just taken 2 years ago. In other words, less teams need a QB in this years draft...especially considering the top of the heap isnt as good as last year, therefore the starting point will be lower.

It's almost a rule that if there isn't a good quarterback in the first 20 picks, there probably isn't a good one in the draft. It was said that Jimmy Clausen, Tim Tebow, and Colt McCoy were fantastic values that "dropped" on draft day, but it turned out the NFL scouts were right. Those guys just stunk.

.

Hey, apparently the scouts didnt think much of Tom Brady either.

 

[kerouac9]

So youre saying, in addition to Luck, RG3, and Wilson last year, 5 QBs were just taken 2 years ago. In other words, less teams need a QB in this years draft...especially considering the top of the heap isnt as good as last year, therefore the starting point will be lower.

Whatever gets you though the night, man. I actually do happen to believe this, but you were the one here in the preseason saying that the Jets, Vikings, Browns, Bills, Vikings, Panthers, Jaguars, Dolphins, Chiefs, Chargers, Raiders, Rams, Seahawks, and Cards would all be drafting quarterbacks in the first round of the 2013 draft. How's that speculation working out for you?

From that list, I'd expect reasonably that the Jags, Chiefs, and Raiders can be reasonably expected to draft quarterbacks.

Again if we shouldn't be concerned about not drafting a quarterback in the first round, where are the plethora of legitimate starters that have come out of picks 22-80 over the past decade or so? Who are they?

 

[Bodha]

Whatever gets you though the night, man. I actually do happen to believe this, but you were the one here in the preseason saying that the Jets, Vikings, Browns, Bills, Vikings, Panthers, Jaguars, Dolphins, Chiefs, Chargers, Raiders, Rams, Seahawks, and Cards would all be drafting quarterbacks in the first round of the 2013 draft.

I did think all those QBs would be busts, and Heck yes Im wrong right now about those guys. And Im glad I am, because it proves that less teams need a QB in this coming draft.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

UNPOPULAR OPINION ALERT: "Franchise" QBs are overrated.

Ha, overrated by who? People who want to have a fighting chance at winning a championship? If that's the standard, then sure, they're overrated.

Eli Manning wasn't considered a Franchise QB by the hoi polloi even after he won his first Super Bowl. He wasn't considered one by the public even before he won his second.

This is just patently false. Sure, you may find a couple contrarians at any point that want to argue it for the sake of argument, but the proof was in the pudding, and beating a previously undefeated team was certainly enough for most to believe Eli was a franchise QB.

Drew Brees and Peyton Manning may be the best pure passers of this generation. They have two titles between them. More damningly, they only have two trips to the Super Bowl between them. So what's the point?

Uh, unless Peyton didn't play in the game against the Saints or Bears, that's 3 Super Bowl appearances. In our entire existence, we have one, WHEN WE HAD A FRANCHISE QB. Again, isn't the point to try and compete for a Super Bowl?

If you have an above-average passer like Chopper's list, you have a chance to win your division and maybe get a bye through the first round of the playoffs. That's all you can hope for.

Of course, which is why I maintain that as we don't have a great to elite QB, we need to acquire one, as without that, we'll perpetually be stuck in mediocrity at best.

The problem with the Franchise quarterback who is going to eat up $150 million in cap space over eight years is that it prevents you from building around him unless your front office is exceptional.

Happened to Indy, and they were left holding the bag when Peyton got hurt.
Happened to New England, and now they're .500 and got beat by us and Seattle.
Happened to Pittsburgh, and they may finish 2012 3rd in the AFC North.
It's just happened to New Orleans.

Problem? You think Indy fans consider having Peyton there for 8 division championships, 2 AFC championships and a title is a problem?

You think New England and Pittsburgh would have traded the last decade to be more fiscally responsible at QB?

Are you really trying to say having a franchise QB is a bad thing because they're expensive?

Of course they're expensive, because they're the only way to win anything of significance. I'm trying figure out if you're being sarcastic or not.

 

[kerouac9]

This is just patently false. Sure, you may find a couple contrarians at any point that want to argue it for the sake of argument, but the proof was in the pudding, and beating a previously undefeated team was certainly enough for most to believe Eli was a franchise QB.

Wrong. Eli said at the beginning of the 2011 season that he believed that he was an elite QB, and it was a HUGE controversy. Lead PTI and such. Go ahead and go a Google search of "Eli Manning" and "Elite QB" and you can go back and see all the strum and drang that was brought up. Here's a sample:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...nning-is-not-an-elite-quarterback-yet/251695/

Among the most frequently asked questions of the last two months in the NFL season: "Is Eli Manning one of the league's elite quarterbacks?" That the question continues to be asked is itself an answer. If Eli Manning is one of the NFL's elite quarterbacks, why is his status still an issue?

...

Eli Manning is extremely likeable, talented, and gutsy; we knew that long before he engineered several sensational fourth quarter bailouts of the Giants this past season. But that doesn't make him elite. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and Eli is beheld by the New York area sports media. They've always agreed to overrate him, somehow seeing in him a better quarterback than his numbers would merit. If he played for, say, Kansas City and didn't have the same last name as his brother Peyton (not to mention his dad, Archie), it's doubtful that anyone would be asking if he should be counted among the league's best.

That was written the week before the Super Bowl. Imagine what people were saying when the made the original comment in 2011 training camp.

Is your argument really that Eli was a Franchise quarterback after the 2007 season--when he won his first Super Bowl? If John Skelton completes 56.1% of his passes for 6.3 YPA, 23 TDs, and 20 INTs, are you going to consider him an Elite, Franchise quarterback?

Really?

Was Rex Grossman an elite/franchise QB when he quarterbacked the Bears to that NFC Title?

If there are 15 "franchise" quarterbacks in the NFL right now, then the title itself loses all meaning.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Wrong. Eli said at the beginning of the 2011 season that he believed that he was an elite QB, and it was a HUGE controversy. Lead PTI and such. Go ahead and go a Google search of "Eli Manning" and "Elite QB" and you can go back and see all the strum and drang that was brought up. Here's a sample:

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertai...nning-is-not-an-elite-quarterback-yet/251695/



That was written the week before the Super Bowl. Imagine what people were saying when the made the original comment in 2011 training camp.

Is your argument really that Eli was a Franchise quarterback after the 2007 season--when he won his first Super Bowl? If John Skelton completes 56.1% of his passes for 6.3 YPA, 23 TDs, and 20 INTs, are you going to consider him an Elite, Franchise quarterback?

Really?

Was Rex Grossman an elite/franchise QB when he quarterbacked the Bears to that NFC Title?

If there are 15 "franchise" quarterbacks in the NFL right now, then the title itself loses all meaning.

Determining whether or not Eli was considered elite in the past is irrelevant, anyone who thought that he wasn't after the first super bowl win is surely quieted after last year.

In any event, that wasn't the point I was making. Again, the goal is to get a great to elite QB, someone who can legitimately get you to the playoffs, and hopefully a super bowl. Chopper's list is pretty comprehensive, and as we have none of those guys, we need to get one. I doubt that is very controversial.

Regarding the rest of your thoughts about franchise QB's which you neglected to address: do you honestly believe the cost of a franchise QB outweighs their value?

 

[Chopper0080]

I was talking elite QBs, not QBs you think are better than Kolb. I can chop that list up rather easily, but I'm a lazy hippie today so it's all good. I would knock the number up to 7 or 8 instead of the 5 I had originally talked about, if that makes you feel any better.

My point wasn't to target "elite" QBs, but more to establish a list of QBs who overcome their teams flaws on a consistent basis.

 

[kerouac9]

Determining whether or not Eli was considered elite in the past is irrelevant, anyone who thought that he wasn't after the first super bowl win is surely quieted after last year.

In any event, that wasn't the point I was making. Again, the goal is to get a great to elite QB, someone who can legitimately get you to the playoffs, and hopefully a super bowl. Chopper's list is pretty comprehensive, and as we have none of those guys, we need to get one. I doubt that is very controversial.

Regarding the rest of your thoughts about franchise QB's which you neglected to address: do you honestly believe the cost of a franchise QB outweighs their value?

If there are 15 "elite" QBs in the NFL, then, again, the term lacks all meaning. Then we're living in Lake Woebegone, where all the children are above average.

I think that the cost of a Franchise QB's third contract outweighs their value. It's kind of a catch-22, because you can't release Peyton Manning or let Drew Brees enter free agency when they're at the top of their profession. The Cards played hard ball with Kurt Warner on his "third contract" the year before the Super Bowl run (after?) and won that battle--they were smart about it.

When Eli Manning's 2nd contract is up in 2016, he'll be counting $22+ million against the salary cap for three seasons. He'll probably extend in 2015, but his Cap charge will possibly be north of $30 million. He'll be 34.

Ben Rothlisberger's 2nd contract (8 years, $102 million) comes up in 2016, as well. What is he going to make when he's 34? How many elite years does he have left?

Drew Brees is 33 years old right now. Is he going to be worth $10 million a season in salary alone ($18.4 against the cap) when he's 35 in 2014? Don't worry, because he'll still have two more years left on his deal.

Is it worth it to have an above-average quarterback? Heck, yes. But while it's great for media exposure and preseason buzz and box office to have a Top 5 QB locked up for the long term, I don't know if it makes football sense.

Tom Brady is on the books for $21.8 million against the cap for 2013 and 2014. He's 35 years old right now.