Whisenhunt says Kolb vs. Skelton

[Jetstream Green]

Warner got those magic gloves and BOOM, freakin' Hall of Famer material. For the love of all things playoffs, somebody get those gloves to Kolb or Skelton!

 

[Big Deal]

But he might be 4 or 13 years from now. Remember Kurt Warner didn't even start an NFL game until he was 28 and was 37 when he QBd the Cards in the SB. So don't be dissing Double Deuce too soon. Let's see what John can do with a full year of work at 2 and the Alien and Michael Floyd to throw to. Never forget that Kurt freaking Warner's success came playing with Marshall Faulk, Torrey Holt, and Isaac Bruce and again with Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin. In NY without those kind of weapons he was benched.

Personally I think the Deuce is a bigger ,better version of Jake Plummer with a stronger arm and far better supporting cast and two years from now will lead the Cards to another NFC Championship with a 34-14 thrashing of the Cowboys at the UPS.

Don't get me wrong, I love what Skelton did in his starts. He looks the part, stands tall in the pocket, but he has to work on his touch and accuracy, especially on timing routes. Warner always new where to go with the ball, many times before the snap. I don't feel like either of our QBs have that feel for the game. Our passing plays seem so slow to develop which is why there is so much pressure. I'll tell you what, whoever is the QB, they better learn how to throw the deep ball short of the route making it a jump ball scenario. Warner lived off that play in 08 then the league just bracketed Fitz with the safety over top. Now we have two guys who should have the advantage with that play when in single coverage. If Housler can develop into that middle in, find the cushion in the zone then this team should be much improved moving the chains.

 

[52brandon]

Whiz has the experience under Cower in Pittsburg, But has went from 1st in rushing attempts and balance to last in rushing attempts in Pittsburg to last with Cardinals over the last 5 years

we weren't last this last year FYI (28th). And had only 6 less rush attempts than the #1 regular season team (Packers)...

 

[JAB]

No he wasn't.

In February 2006 Warner signs a three-year, $22 million contract with the Cards (http://www.azcardinals.com/assets/docs/WarnerTimeline.pdf).

In 2008 (the year of the QB competition), Leinart was making $735,000 in salary (http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/matt-leinart/).

Warner was probably making at least twice what Leinart was in 2008. Probably more.

That was only his cap number for that season it did not take into consideration what he was actually given or was to get. Until Warner got his new deal after the 2008 Super Bowl Matt's deal had a lot more money than Kurt's.

It doesn't really matter I believe the rest of the comments people are making are true. Its Kolbs job to lose and he probably will unfortunately due to injury.

 

[john h]

Whisenhunt says Kolb vs. Skelton is as even as a competition can be

We shall see !!! Let's just hope that the best QB does actually start..


http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...s-skelton-is-as-even-as-a-competition-can-be/

That is the way it should be. I do not care who makes the most money. Just start the best QB regardless.

 

[john h]

I still dont buy it. Its Kolb's job to lose by default until he gets injured or booed off the field. Kolb would have to play monumentally bad in preseason and Skelton would have to be excellent for it to become even a remote possibility.

They threw another 7 million in the furnace and ended whatever hopes they had of landing Manning, they are not going to bench him over a couple of series in the preseason.

He is the starter in week 1 (barring preseason injury) but is riding the pine and on his way out of the NFL by week 8.

Money should have absolutely nothing to do about who starts. Who wins the job in training camp should be what it is all about. The players will know who performs best and will also know if we start the guy who has performed best. We have been down this road before with Leinart. I never did understand how a coach can declare his starter before training camp even starts. in particular with guys like we have. Neither have much experience as starters or even playing in the NFL. Kolb goes into camp with some serious health issues to deal with that may well effect his play. Skelton goes into camp having started 7 NFL games and only a year in the NFL. If ever there should be competition this is the right situation. Because we gave up an arm and a leg to get Kolb does not make him the better player. I think we have the necessary players to make a good run at winning our division except the unknown position and most important position of QB. I sure do not want to give up on the season before it even starts by starting a QB who does not prove he is the best we have.

 

[john h]

Well there is the hope that the Defense can keep the games close so that when Kolb is 10-21-153 yards 1TD and 1INT we can win those games 16-13 like Denver used to do. Feely might be our offensive MVP this season.

But you are right. There is no QB competition. Not when one guy is making 10 million and the other guy $490,000.

Just what does the players pay have to do with how he performs? That makes no sense to me. Kolb may end up running backwards again and playing scared after those concussions. Do you still start him? Why even have training camp? Just pick the guys who are paid the most and start them at every position. A computer then can run your team.

 

[john h]

Leinart was not Whizenhunt's guy, Leinart had not just been given a 7 million dollar bonus and Skelton is not a former superbowl MVP.

But the key-point is... Whiz inherited Leinart, Kolb is a guy he selected and invested in personally.

Totally difference scenarios.

We really do not know what Whiz's thoughts were on Kolb. We do know what Graves thought as he expressed them at a new conference. Any coach should start his best players based on performance not pay. If he does not then he should not be an NFL coach. Rookies often beat out highly paid veterans to start the season. If you start Kolb and he flounders just how long do you keep starting him? Do you wait until there is no recovery and the season is lost? 1-2-3-4 games just how many do you allow an under performing QB to contiune?

 

[john h]

Well let us give John a chance he just may become our next SB QB. Has that one thing that some athletes have about him the desire and the ability to win at all costs.

Based on last years performance Skelton would be the starter if you used that as a gauge. Since there were extenuating circumstances as Kolb was hurt and Skelton only played 7 games (good games as we won most of them) we should go into training camp and let the best man win the starting job. Kolb has no history of winning in the NFL. So he should be awarded the job because we apparently made a horrible trade and gave him a large contract? Hopefully Kolb wins the job and becomes an all-pro but until then the starting job should be up for grabs.

 

[Duckjake]

Just what does the players pay have to do with how he performs? That makes no sense to me. Kolb may end up running backwards again and playing scared after those concussions. Do you still start him? Why even have training camp? Just pick the guys who are paid the most and start them at every position. A computer then can run your team.

That's all well and good but it is not reality. The player getting paid the big money will get more opportunity than the cheap player. That's just a fact of life in the NFL.

As for the guy on profootballtalk I wonder where he got the idea that it was obvious Warner was much better than Leinarts going into 2007. Warner had been benched by Denny Green after a very poor start to 2006, the Cards were 1-4 under Warner and Kurt had thrown 4 interceptions in the two games vs St. Louis and Atlanta. KW fumbled 10 times that season. It wasn't until Leinart was injured that Warner came in and from that point on was obviously better than Leinart.

Regarding QB competition in 2008 I still maintain there never was one. CKW was wisely going with KW all the way. So I don't agree that Whisenhunt gave Leinart more chances than he deserved.

Aren't QB controversies fun?

 

[john h]

I don't doubt what Whis says is true.

The money thing cuts both ways: Skelton would be cheaper going forward then Kolb. The $7mm paid to him is a sunk cost. Think of it as buying a very expensive option

What bothers me about the $7 mil we paid Kolb was Kolb did not tell the Cards all the problems he had with his concussion last year until we had paid him the money. I cannot say I would not have done the same thing but I do not think I would have said anything as his announcement of those problems embarrassed the Cards. I doubt they pay him the $7 mil had they known what he told the public about all the problems he had after the concussion. Add to that all the press that concussions are now receiving in the press and lawsuits filed by former players. If I were Kolb it sure would weigh on my mind every time I saw a 270 linebacker about to hit me in the face. Kolb's concussion really bothers me after reading what he had to say about it. These things are cumulative over time. Do you think Kolb will play as well having had those concussions as he would had he not had them? They are not going to be laying the wood to him in camp so we may not see the real effect until the season begins and the defense tries to knock him out of the game. Somewhere in the back of his mind he is going to remember those and either consciously or unconsciously it will likely effect his play. i got beaned in a baseball game and it sure did effect my hitting after that. Then maybe I was just a sissy. If someone had told me the next beaning might result in my death I would have quit.

 

[kerouac9]

That was only his cap number for that season it did not take into consideration what he was actually given or was to get. Until Warner got his new deal after the 2008 Super Bowl Matt's deal had a lot more money than Kurt's.

It doesn't really matter I believe the rest of the comments people are making are true. Its Kolbs job to lose and he probably will unfortunately due to injury.

Evidence? I gave you two links to support my point. What does it matter in 2008 if Leinart is getting $12 million in 2011? It doesn't.

The number was his SALARY. His Cap number was a couple million higher because he had signing bonus and option bonus in 2007 that were pro-rated some amount.

 

[Phrazbit]

Money should have absolutely nothing to do about who starts. Who wins the job in training camp should be what it is all about. The players will know who performs best and will also know if we start the guy who has performed best. We have been down this road before with Leinart. I never did understand how a coach can declare his starter before training camp even starts. in particular with guys like we have. Neither have much experience as starters or even playing in the NFL. Kolb goes into camp with some serious health issues to deal with that may well effect his play. Skelton goes into camp having started 7 NFL games and only a year in the NFL. If ever there should be competition this is the right situation. Because we gave up an arm and a leg to get Kolb does not make him the better player. I think we have the necessary players to make a good run at winning our division except the unknown position and most important position of QB. I sure do not want to give up on the season before it even starts by starting a QB who does not prove he is the best we have.

I agree thats how is SHOULD work but I dont think thats how it will. I thought the Cards should have dumped Kolb over the winter so they didnt waste the 7 million dollar roster bonus on him. But they view him as an investment and he needs to prove to them he sucks before they move on.

I dont think it will take long. Kolb will likely get hurt, and the fans will almost certainly boo the life out of him if the team starts slow or he gags as badly during the clutch as he did last year.

 

[JC_AZ]

I agree thats how is SHOULD work but I dont think thats how it will. I thought the Cards should have dumped Kolb over the winter so they didnt waste the 7 million dollar roster bonus on him. But they view him as an investment and he needs to prove to them he sucks before they move on.

I dont think it will take long. Kolb will likely get hurt, and the fans will almost certainly boo the life out of him if the team starts slow or he gags as badly during the clutch as he did last year.

Maybe the line will let him get crushed once they get tired of trying to figure out where he is since he can't stay in the pocket...many comments about how the line improved (or at least LB) towards the end of the season... coincidental with a QB who understood the pocket? Granted, accuracy was an issue, but at least he gave the team a chance and the line looked better...Kolb will end up wasting another half season with injuries... then we are back to where we were last year

 

[JAB]

Evidence? I gave you two links to support my point. What does it matter in 2008 if Leinart is getting $12 million in 2011? It doesn't.

The number was his SALARY. His Cap number was a couple million higher because he had signing bonus and option bonus in 2007 that were pro-rated some amount.

It matters a lot if you put it into context at the time there was no hindsight and there was a lot of doubt and Matt was considered to be the future of the franchise. Kurt Warner only signed a three-year $18 million deal that could be bumped with incentives. Your own link just showed Matt earned part of his $50.8 million contract with a $7.5 million bonus for hitting his incentives for starts in his first year. So in 2007 they had just paid him a $7.5 million bonus that alone was higher than Kurt's yearly salary. And you're trying to say the franchise looked at him as a $735,000 QB going into 2008 after just paying him a 7.5 million bonus?

It's your links right next to your quoted $735,000 salary it shows the $7.5 million bonus. It does not say that he hit that but we all know that he did. It was a bonus for starts and due to Warner's injuries and not playing well he reached that starting bonus and receive that money. Plus that link says he only made 275,000 in his rookie year it's obviously unreliable and not showing any of his bonuses whatsoever or even accurate. I have a hard time believing he only collected $275,000 his rookie year. He was at the time Kurt took over the starting job making more money per year. His contract was higher and he was hitting his incentives Kurt was not. It's easy to say now what difference does it make but at the time it looked like he was going to earn that money and he was going to be our starting quarterback.

Even if you break it down and just divide the max money from each contract Matt is making more per year. The timeline in the second link proves it's important to put the story in context with the money.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/matt-leinart/

http://www.azcardinals.com/assets/docs/WarnerTimeline.pdf

I don't know why it's really a big issue it doesn't change what's important between Kolb and Skelton. Those are two completely different sets of circumstances. But if you go back in time and put the money that was just paid and the situation into context your statement is inaccurate your own link provides all the proof you need.

Edit add:
I don't have a link for this but it must've been discussed on this forum as it was the other. Warner did not hit one of his incentives some of the haters were calling the organization cheap for not paying anyways. I can't remember if it was quarterback rating or completion percentage but the interception he threw in the last game of the year cost him that incentive.

Anyways again I don't think it has anything to do with our current quarterback situation but as I stated at that time Matt was making and was scheduled to make more money.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

I think Skelton runs away with the competition and never looks back. If we all just take a moment and realize that this kid has gone from Fordham University and a 5th round draft pick to 8-4 as a starter in the NFL in 2 seasons is really amazing. What is there to say that he won't continue to improve? I just love Skelton's approach to the game. He is confident in a very humble and likeable way. I loved his answer when he was asked about us going after Peyton Manning. Skelton didn't seem defensive at all and just gave a matter of fact answer that Manning is a hall of fame player and the Cards would be nuts not to go after him.

John has that elusive "it" quality. He may never lead the league in accuracy, will probably throw more INT's than we like, but he is a gamer and a winner and the type of guy who players gravitate toward. Darnell Dockett was very complimentary of Skelton last year. He made some comment about the lockerroom being united behind Skelton. That speaks volumes to me.

 

[Darkside]

Don't get me wrong, I love what Skelton did in his starts. He looks the part, stands tall in the pocket, but he has to work on his touch and accuracy, especially on timing routes. Warner always new where to go with the ball, many times before the snap. I don't feel like either of our QBs have that feel for the game. Our passing plays seem so slow to develop which is why there is so much pressure. I'll tell you what, whoever is the QB, they better learn how to throw the deep ball short of the route making it a jump ball scenario. Warner lived off that play in 08 then the league just bracketed Fitz with the safety over top. Now we have two guys who should have the advantage with that play when in single coverage. If Housler can develop into that middle in, find the cushion in the zone then this team should be much improved moving the chains.

You mentioned something in Houseler and TE's in general I think is key. Housler was open so many times early in the year for TD's and they missed him. And it wasn't just Kolb, who missed him, Skelton did too. Houseler was wide freaking open. If those passes are completed it changes coverage in the future, completely changes it, but since we never completed anything decent over the middle then no, they don't even have to guard it.

I don't know who wins the QB duel, but they have to learn to throw to wide open TE's, those are the easiest passes to make!! They are the easiest by far!! Right in front of your face, wide open. If they can't make those, then every corner and LB is going to cheat to the WR's like they did last year.

 

[Darkside]

I think Skelton runs away with the competition and never looks back. If we all just take a moment and realize that this kid has gone from Fordham University and a 5th round draft pick to 8-4 as a starter in the NFL in 2 seasons is really amazing. What is there to say that he won't continue to improve? I just love Skelton's approach to the game. He is confident in a very humble and likeable way. I loved his answer when he was asked about us going after Peyton Manning. Skelton didn't seem defensive at all and just gave a matter of fact answer that Manning is a hall of fame player and the Cards would be nuts not to go after him.

John has that elusive "it" quality. He may never lead the league in accuracy, will probably throw more INT's than we like, but he is a gamer and a winner and the type of guy who players gravitate toward. Darnell Dockett was very complimentary of Skelton last year. He made some comment about the lockerroom being united behind Skelton. That speaks volumes to me.

Agree with you to some extent but I don't know how well a team can do with a dude who throws INT's. You said, basically, that's something we'll have to live with and in today's NFL I don't think that's true. It's such an offensive oriented league that if you turn it over you're so busted, and that's been true most years. Teams will score. We can't turn it over. One of Skelton's biggest flaws, besides accuracy is that he never throws it away, he almost always throws it into the field of play even when situations dictate otherwise. Skelton needs to learn to throw the ball away. Even a gunslinger like Kurt threw it into the dirt or out of bounds sometimes. Skelton never does.

 

[Athlon]

They didn't pay him the bonus so he could sit on the bench. I think it's almost laughable that there's going to be a real quarterback competition.

 

[Darkside]

Don't laugh too hard, I wouldn't be surprised if Whisenhunt starts Skelton.

I honestly think Whisenhunt just wants to win. People, in the past, since I've been reading anyway, have taken that as a joke, regarding the competition, and yet he's always played dudes he thought would play better, and those same fans have gotten pissed.

I really think Whisenhunt will play the strongest guy.

My thought is this: I think Whis takes the pulse of the team, who they rally around, who they respect. While also taking into account his own grade of the player. When Whisenhunt says he grades both players equally I believe that. What that means to me is how they grade in the locker-room. Who do the players respect and listen to. (Think Leinart).

I have a feeling that Whisenhunt is torn on both these guys and it's going to come down to who the players in the locker-room respond to and listen to and respect. I have a feeling it won't be Kolb.

I expect Skelton to start, believe it or not. I really do.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I think that if the battle through OTAs and TC is somewhat close, the team will go with Kolb to try and get return on investment and since they have Skeleton under control for reasonable money.

But if Skeleton outplays Kolb?? I have full faith Wiz will go with JS. He has to win this year and can't afford to start Kolb just because of what they have paid him so far.

I hope they both have improved dramtically and have no horse in this race personally.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well, if it is an outright competition, I really hope Skelton wins it on merit. I have no doubt that he will be our starting QB for most of this season no matter who initially gets the nod but it would be nice for him to get the time as the number 1 during preseason instead of having to play catch-up when Kolb's inevitable season ending concussion occurs.

Steve

 

[Stout]

I think Skelton runs away with the competition and never looks back. If we all just take a moment and realize that this kid has gone from Fordham University and a 5th round draft pick to 8-4 as a starter in the NFL in 2 seasons is really amazing. What is there to say that he won't continue to improve? I just love Skelton's approach to the game. He is confident in a very humble and likeable way. I loved his answer when he was asked about us going after Peyton Manning. Skelton didn't seem defensive at all and just gave a matter of fact answer that Manning is a hall of fame player and the Cards would be nuts not to go after him.

John has that elusive "it" quality. He may never lead the league in accuracy, will probably throw more INT's than we like, but he is a gamer and a winner and the type of guy who players gravitate toward. Darnell Dockett was very complimentary of Skelton last year. He made some comment about the lockerroom being united behind Skelton. That speaks volumes to me.

Bingo. Tack on that he has had absolutely zero offseason or training camp time above #3 (they had to hurry Kolb along in the very short training camp), and I contend that he will become more accurate and will throw less INTs.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I'm in the Kolb camp.

Kolb is more accurate and in today's NFL, accuracy is such an important trait. I haven't seen anything from Skelton to make me think that he can consistently do that. For all Kolb's warts, he's at least been more accurate than Skelton.

As for Skelton's record as a starter, I think it's dishonest to give him too much credit. For as many game winning plays that Skelton has completed, you can easily argue that he wasn't making plays throughout the game and put the team into positions that he had to make a game winning play. He deserves credit for being "clutch", but you can't ignore his inability to for making the "routine" play early in games.

Skelton is intriguing; his pocket awareness is top notch and he's tough. But we can't rely on a QB who posts a 68 (SUCKS!) QB rating. It's just piss poor, and is reflective of what we see of Skelton for 3 1/2 quarters of nearly every game he has played.

Either way, I'll be happy, I like both players for different reasons. Clearly, neither has performed well by most measurements, and even if we have a winning season I hope we look for a long term answer at QB if neither improves upon their 2011-2012 season performance.

 

[kerouac9]

I'm in the Kolb camp.

Kolb is more accurate and in today's NFL, accuracy is such an important trait. I haven't seen anything from Skelton to make me think that he can consistently do that. For all Kolb's warts, he's at least been more accurate than Skelton.

As for Skelton's record as a starter, I think it's dishonest to give him too much credit. For as many game winning plays that Skelton has completed, you can easily argue that he wasn't making plays throughout the game and put the team into positions that he had to make a game winning play. He deserves credit for being "clutch", but you can't ignore his inability to for making the "routine" play early in games.

Skelton is intriguing; his pocket awareness is top notch and he's tough. But we can't rely on a QB who posts a 68 (SUCKS!) QB rating. It's just piss poor, and is reflective of what we see of Skelton for 3 1/2 quarters of nearly every game he has played.

Either way, I'll be happy, I like both players for different reasons. Clearly, neither has performed well by most measurements, and even if we have a winning season I hope we look for a long term answer at QB if neither improves upon their 2011-2012 season performance.

FWIW, Kolb's accuracy is deeply overstated by his apologists. Kolb completed 57.7% of his passes in this offense last season, and 59.4% in his career. Skelton completed 54.9% of his passes with very little professional coaching ever in his career. Is the 5% completion percentage difference really worth facing 2nd and 14 every other series? Kolb completes more passes because he gets sacked more often.

There isn't a QB competition unless Kolb falls completely on his face in the preseason. Because it's preseason and there isn't really a schemed pass rush, Kolb is going to look fine. Of course, Kolb only competed 55% of his passes last preseason.

If you want to win now, then Kolb should start until he gets hurt. But is Kolb going to lead you to the playoffs? Is Kolb going to keep you competitive in the division? I know that a lot of people still think this is an open question, but I'm ready to say no.

Can Skelton do those things? I'm not ready to say yes, but I think that it actually is an open question with Skelton. Mainly this is because Skelton remains so limited that the coaching staff is more willing to do things that help the team win--like run the ball more often.

I'd rather pass 53% of the time with Skelton than pass 60% of the time with Kolb, because I think the results are going to be essentially the same. It's just a shame we have such a pig-headed offensive staff.