Kyler Murray Debate Thread

[602 Native]

Kind of disagree. When you have bottom of the barrel players, these guys are fighting to keep their jobs every week. Tonga is going to work on his pass rush even if it likely isn't going to result in sacks. I see very few dudes on this roster who I believe are not workers. Stills seems like he is giving it his all. Lopez. Collins. ST5 is doing the best he can IMO.

I am curious what guys you think are not hard workers on this squad because I can't see many and those that aren't won't be in the league long.

You’re not gonna want to hear this but Marv might be one.

Also workers know the play book up and down. Workers don’t commit a ton of mental mistakes. Workers don’t commit penalties. Pointing out that the team doesn’t have that worker mentality doesn’t mean there aren’t any on the team. I truly believe there are some but I don’t think that is who this team is.

 

[Redsz]

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FWIW on the Kyler vs Petzing debate.

Gambo says that Kyler is processing things too fast and not seeing guys getting open.

I couldn't tell if this was his opinion or if this is coming from the Cardinals.

 

[bankybruce]

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FWIW on the Kyler vs Petzing debate.

Gambo says that Kyler is processing things too fast and not seeing guys getting open.

I couldn't tell if this was his opinion or if this is coming from the Cardinals.

I just watched it. It's interesting that someone posted yesterday that the pocket breaks down in like 3.2 seconds for Kyler, while the league average was 5 seconds. That would directly contradict what Gambo is saying here. It the WR is open after the 3.2 second, or after he make a cut as Gambo says, then Kyler is already scrambling and looking for his safety valve. Sounds like a protection issue to me then.

 

[Shane]

I just watched it. It's interesting that someone posted yesterday that the pocket breaks down in like 3.2 seconds for Kyler, while the league average was 5 seconds. That would directly contradict what Gambo is saying here. It the WR is open after the 3.2 second, or after he make a cut as Gambo says, then Kyler is already scrambling and looking for his safety valve. Sounds like a protection issue to me then.

Is it though? I remember them talking about snap to release times for most high level QBs during a broadcast. Generally the best QBs are getting rid of the ball in about 2.5 seconds. If IIRC the Goats like Tome brady and Mahomes regularly were in the 2.2 to 2.3 range...

 

[bankybruce]

Is it though? I remember them talking about snap to release times for most high level QBs during a broadcast. Generally the best QBs are getting rid of the ball in about 2.5 seconds. If IIRC the Goats like Tome brady and Mahomes regularly were in the 2.2 to 2.3 range...

That's my point. If it's take 5 seconds for the play to develop, Kyler can't get it out in 2.5 seconds. Right?

 

[daves]

It's interesting that someone posted yesterday that the pocket breaks down in like 3.2 seconds for Kyler, while the league average was 5 seconds.

I don't have a reference & can't research it right now, but I don't think ANY team provides 5 seconds of clean pocket.

Edit: Just Googled and found these lists. "time in clean pocket" is a subjective stat so take these for what they're worth, but they both have Murray around middle of the pack in time to throw.

NFL.com has Murray tied for 17th with 2.77 seconds to throw. Sam Darnold and Brock Purdy top the list with about 3.1 seconds to throw. Jayden Daniels is somehow excelling with only 2.58 seconds, and Tua Tagovailoa is at the bottom of the list with 2.4 seconds to throw.

FantasyPros lists "Pocket Time", or average time between snap and throwing the ball or pressure, with Murray tied for 15th at 2.4 seconds. This page doesn't allow filtering out very small samples, so Cooper Rush tops the list with 3.4 seconds on 19 attempts, and Mason Rudolph is second with 2.8 seconds on 57 attempts. After those two are Purdy and Darnold with 2.7 seconds each. At the bottom of the list, throwing out the small sample sizes, are Tua and Baker Mayfield with 2.1 seconds. So these numbers generally align with the NFL.com numbers.

As expected, NOBODY gets anywhere NEAR 5 seconds on average... so whatever you read or heard is way off base.

 

[K1Day1]

I just watched it. It's interesting that someone posted yesterday that the pocket breaks down in like 3.2 seconds for Kyler, while the league average was 5 seconds. That would directly contradict what Gambo is saying here. It the WR is open after the 3.2 second, or after he make a cut as Gambo says, then Kyler is already scrambling and looking for his safety valve. Sounds like a protection issue to me then.

Thanks for the post ! ! !.. I heard Gambo say that today and it made absolutely NO sense. If any QB has to wait for a route to develop that shortens the time he has to read other routes. Then it's the QB's fault for not processing routes fast enough ( No win situation ). It was stated before the game that Herbert is averaging about 2 to 2.5 seconds a game before his release. Asking your QB to hang on to the ball for long enough for routes to develop sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. If a receiver has one-on-one and can't get open.. Sounds a a scheme problem of a receiver problem but to blame any NFL QB for not hanging on to the ball and taking their time to wait for plays to develop is Absolutely Insane. That only works with screen plays..

 

[BritCard]

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FWIW on the Kyler vs Petzing debate.

Gambo says that Kyler is processing things too fast and not seeing guys getting open.

I couldn't tell if this was his opinion or if this is coming from the Cardinals.

He says he watched the tape, something I'm going to try to do today.

The sad thing about this segment is that it could have been run in any year in the past 5 years.

 

[Stout]

That's my point. If it's take 5 seconds for the play to develop, Kyler can't get it out in 2.5 seconds. Right?

5 seconds is not a reality for NFL QBs. Nobody expects QBs to routinely get 5 seconds. The great QBs have elite processing speed, and lagging by a few extra (fractions of) ticks will put you behind. That's one reason why Kyler isn't great. He isn't amongst the world's elite at QB processing time.

 

[602 Native]

Don’t ever listen to Gambo for football takes. He is a BBall guy.
The valley has terrible football analysts and reporters.

 

[BritCard]

Here's 3 plays from the opening drive and I think they some up the issues with Kyler pretty well and tie in with what Gambo said above.

This is the 1st play of the game. I'm not sure what Kyler wants to see here when he boots out that isn't there. McBride is open immediately for an easy completion, and so is Higgins. Either of those option would be easy 1st downs.

But he also has a WR burning downfield (I think it's Zay Jones) that has beat his man and the CB has is back to Kyler. This is a difficult but no risk pass and Kyler has the time to set his feet and take it on. Instead we get a 5 yard run. It's my opinion that when a QB has a man getting open downfield and he has the time he should be attempting the pass, but I'd also accept the argument that taking the 100% shot to McBride is smarter football. What he chose was the worst option.

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On the 2nd play Kyler makes a 1st read 10 yard curl to MHJ that was nicely timed, it was a good passing down and I'd like to see many more of those kinds of plays to MHJ. But then we revert back to garbage.

This is play 4 after a Conner run. The trips to the right is designed to open the middle of the field for Trey on the dig and the play is run to perfection and Trey is wide open for a 1st down and more. But Kyler comes off it way early for no reason, he has a clean pocket, Trey runs his route well, it's a really easy pass and probably 15 yards. But Kyler comes off it in the blink of an eye and stairs down the dirty side of the field where everyone is covered (by design).

And this is the problem with the Kyler discussion because I imagine in the game thread the talk was of Kyler making a play with his feet when nobody was open. But the play went exactly as it should and Kyler screwed it up.

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The next play is the one he get's intercepted. This one is for the MHJ isn't getting open crowd. Pause it when Kyler throws the ball (which again is early and looks like he decided pre snap).

MHJ is open on an out route. It's not an easy throw but not a hard one either. That's a medium difficulty NFL throw. On a perfect pass he could conceivable house it with a bit of luck and just a safety to beat. At worst it's a 20 yard pick up. You also have Mike and McBride in better positions to receive the ball than JC. Of 5 options 4 of them are open and JC is the worst option of the 4.

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And this is just the 1st drive. I'd be very frustrated if I was a receiver in this offense. I don't see anything wrong with Petzing's scheme and people are getting open. Will add more as I get time.

 

[Chopper0080]

You’re not gonna want to hear this but Marv might be one.

Also workers know the play book up and down. Workers don’t commit a ton of mental mistakes. Workers don’t commit penalties. Pointing out that the team doesn’t have that worker mentality doesn’t mean there aren’t any on the team. I truly believe there are some but I don’t think that is who this team is.

Not a chance here.

 

[Chopper0080]

Here's 3 plays from the opening drive and I think they some up the issues with Kyler pretty well and tie in with what Gambo said above.

This is the 1st play of the game. I'm not sure what Kyler wants to see here when he boots out that isn't there. McBride is open immediately for an easy completion, and so is Higgins. Either of those option would be easy 1st downs.

But he also has a WR burning downfield (I think it's Zay Jones) that has beat his man and the CB has is back to Kyler. This is a difficult but no risk pass and Kyler has the time to set his feet and take it on. Instead we get a 5 yard run. It's my opinion that when a QB has a man getting open downfield and he has the time he should be attempting the pass, but I'd also accept the argument that taking the 100% shot to McBride is smarter football. What he chose was the worst option.

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On the 2nd play Kyler makes a 1st read 10 yard curl to MHJ that was nicely timed, it was a good passing down and I'd like to see many more of those kinds of plays to MHJ. But then we revert back to garbage.

This is play 4 after a Conner run. The trips to the right is designed to open the middle of the field for Trey on the dig and the play is run to perfection and Trey is wide open for a 1st down and more. But Kyler comes off it way early for no reason, he has a clean pocket, Trey runs his route well, it's a really easy pass and probably 15 yards. But Kyler comes off it in the blink of an eye and stairs down the dirty side of the field where everyone is covered (by design).

And this is the problem with the Kyler discussion because I imagine in the game thread the talk was of Kyler making a play with his feet when nobody was open. But the play went exactly as it should and Kyler screwed it up.

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The next play is the one he get's intercepted. This one is for the MHJ isn't getting open crowd. Pause it when Kyler throws the ball (which again is early and looks like he decided pre snap).

MHJ is open on an out route. It's not an easy throw but not a hard one either. That's a medium difficulty NFL throw. On a perfect pass he could conceivable house it with a bit of luck and just a safety to beat. At worst it's a 20 yard pick up. You also have Mike and McBride in better positions to receive the ball than JC. Of 5 options 4 of them are open and JC is the worst option of the 4.

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And this is just the 1st drive. I'd be very frustrated if I was a receiver in this offense. I don't see anything wrong with Petzing's scheme and people are getting open. Will add more as I get time.

I am curious if anyone will dispute these. They do highlight Kyler's issues with consistency in the passing game and struggles as a timing and rhythm passer.

 

[DVontel]

I am curious if anyone will dispute these. They do highlight Kyler's issues with consistency in the passing game and struggles as a timing and rhythm passer.

LG got blasted in that 2nd clip. Don’t think that’s a clean pocket at all.

 

[DVontel]

Also, am I watching the same clips @Chopper0080? Even the 3rd clip the defense is swarming in & that MHJ out-route takes too long to round out. The WR(Zay?) who is running a GO on the right is covered by DB under & over. Wilson is open for a 2-3 yard gain at best. McBride for 4-5 yards. That first clip is the only legitimate clip I can buy where everything is set up for the QB to execute.

Kyler needs to be more consistent, but those were bad examples.

I can take Brit’s mindset & apply it to every other QB in the league & be curious as to why every QB in the league isn’t going 28/30 on 17 TDs & 1 INT.

 

[Chopper0080]

Also, am I watching the same clips @Chopper0080? Even the 3rd clip the defense is swarming in & that MHJ out-route takes too long to round out. The WR(Zay?) who is running a GO on the right is covered by DB under & over. Wilson is open for a 2-3 yard gain at best. McBride for 4-5 yards. That first clip is the only legitimate clip I can buy where everything is set up for the QB to execute.

Kyler needs to be more consistent, but those were bad examples.

I can take Brit’s mindset & apply it to every other QB in the league & be curious as to why every QB in the league isn’t going 28/30 on 17 TDs & 1 INT.

Rewatching...(because sometimes I don't focus)

1st clip was pretty well described. Have to ready to unload the ball on a short roll if the TE is open. The only thing I can think of is maybe Kyler didn't think he had a clear lane because of the edge but even then he can just lead McBride more to the sideline. He should have that throw in his bag.

2nd clip should be an easy toss to McBride even if it is quicker than you would prefer. McBride wins off the LOS and has inside leverage on the DB with an in breaking route. C and RG double to the right which creates space and a throwing lane. I don't know why he didn't just unload this ball when his back foot hits. Looks like the 8 or 9 second mark. Seems like a clean window throw with the ILB right in the middle of the field. You say the LG gets blown up, but the ball should be out IMO.

3rd clip, I can concede. LG does miss on this and I see why Kyler tried to get rid of it asap. Maybe he could have swung the ball to the left once the EDGE released the receiver, but watching it again, I see why he jump passed. What's kinda funny is that Fro stones his guy so bad he is there for the INT.

 

[Chopper0080]

Where I agree with Brit is that on the first two clips, it seems like McBride should be his first read, and is one of his best playmakers. These should be easy and quick passes to his most trusted receiver.

 

[BritCard]

LG got blasted in that 2nd clip. Don’t think that’s a clean pocket at all.

Kyler came off Trey way before the LG became an issue. Plenty of time there to get the ball to Trey.

If anything not making the pass put him in danger of the sack.

 

[BritCard]

Rewatching...(because sometimes I don't focus)

1st clip was pretty well described. Have to ready to unload the ball on a short roll if the TE is open. The only thing I can think of is maybe Kyler didn't think he had a clear lane because of the edge but even then he can just lead McBride more to the sideline. He should have that throw in his bag.

2nd clip should be an easy toss to McBride even if it is quicker than you would prefer. McBride wins off the LOS and has inside leverage on the DB with an in breaking route. C and RG double to the right which creates space and a throwing lane. I don't know why he didn't just unload this ball when his back foot hits. Looks like the 8 or 9 second mark. Seems like a clean window throw with the ILB right in the middle of the field. You say the LG gets blown up, but the ball should be out IMO.

3rd clip, I can concede. LG does miss on this and I see why Kyler tried to get rid of it asap. Maybe he could have swung the ball to the left once the EDGE released the receiver, but watching it again, I see why he jump passed. What's kinda funny is that Fro stones his guy so bad he is there for the INT.

I disagree on the 3rd one, I think that's an average NFL pocket, but we don't need to agree.

The other thing to remember here is these are the scripted plays of the first drive, the ones they practiced the most last week.

I'm still slowly going through the film, I'm in Q2 just up to the Dortch TD. Nothing else stands out as egregious so far but every passing play is a 1 read play. The plays may as well be called McBride 13, or Marv 06. It's most often a shotgun snap, Kyler looks directly at his first read and it gets the ball out quickly if he thinks the guy has half a chance of getting the ball.

There's zero progressions, absolutely none, after that opening drive. The plays aren't even designed for progressions. All the routes besides the route being targeted are clearout routes. It's very much like Kliff's offense in that way, and there's only one common denominator.

 

[BritCard]

This is the first play of drive 3, after the Dortch TD.

The big miss here is Mike open on the deep dig with a double move. The issue is that by the time he's open (about 5 seconds) Kyler walks himself into pressure and has to dump it off. I don't know why he goes to the left. Mike is to the right and he has 4 blocking 2 on the right. People will think this is nit picking, but these are the details of QB play that make the difference between Aaron Rodgers and Andy Dalton.

I've included the EZ angle at the end.

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I'm just starting the first drive of the 2nd half, starts with a couple of off target throws to Marv and Mike but they were evident at the time. Will post more as I get to it.

Also Connor is a beast and this offense would suck massively without him.

 

[SECTION 11]

Here's 3 plays from the opening drive and I think they some up the issues with Kyler pretty well and tie in with what Gambo said above.

This is the 1st play of the game. I'm not sure what Kyler wants to see here when he boots out that isn't there. McBride is open immediately for an easy completion, and so is Higgins. Either of those option would be easy 1st downs.

But he also has a WR burning downfield (I think it's Zay Jones) that has beat his man and the CB has is back to Kyler. This is a difficult but no risk pass and Kyler has the time to set his feet and take it on. Instead we get a 5 yard run. It's my opinion that when a QB has a man getting open downfield and he has the time he should be attempting the pass, but I'd also accept the argument that taking the 100% shot to McBride is smarter football. What he chose was the worst option.

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On the 2nd play Kyler makes a 1st read 10 yard curl to MHJ that was nicely timed, it was a good passing down and I'd like to see many more of those kinds of plays to MHJ. But then we revert back to garbage.

This is play 4 after a Conner run. The trips to the right is designed to open the middle of the field for Trey on the dig and the play is run to perfection and Trey is wide open for a 1st down and more. But Kyler comes off it way early for no reason, he has a clean pocket, Trey runs his route well, it's a really easy pass and probably 15 yards. But Kyler comes off it in the blink of an eye and stairs down the dirty side of the field where everyone is covered (by design).

And this is the problem with the Kyler discussion because I imagine in the game thread the talk was of Kyler making a play with his feet when nobody was open. But the play went exactly as it should and Kyler screwed it up.

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The next play is the one he get's intercepted. This one is for the MHJ isn't getting open crowd. Pause it when Kyler throws the ball (which again is early and looks like he decided pre snap).

MHJ is open on an out route. It's not an easy throw but not a hard one either. That's a medium difficulty NFL throw. On a perfect pass he could conceivable house it with a bit of luck and just a safety to beat. At worst it's a 20 yard pick up. You also have Mike and McBride in better positions to receive the ball than JC. Of 5 options 4 of them are open and JC is the worst option of the 4.

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And this is just the 1st drive. I'd be very frustrated if I was a receiver in this offense. I don't see anything wrong with Petzing's scheme and people are getting open. Will add more as I get time.

Did you break down his 40 yard TD run?

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Did you break down his 40 yard TD run?

 

[SECTION 11]

Mahomes has 6 TDs and 8 picks. That would be a more interesting breakdown.

 

[602 Native]

Did you break down his 40 yard TD run?

Why would he do that it doesn't jive with his agenda.

 

[Chopper0080]

Did you break down his 40 yard TD run?

I did...it was great.