10 thoughts - training camp

[QuebecCard]

VJ never was held accountable under weakling KK. That won’t be the case under Payton. And VJ had no desire to develop young talent. Lucky for him, Denver already has a talented D. He HAS to have that otherwise he’s a below average DC.

Riddle me this. Why would Payton hire him?

 

[CardLogic]

How do we know he hasn’t? And I’m sure he’s not disposing of everyone.

azcardinals.com/team/staff

At a minimum half of the Player Personnel staff is the same as prior to Ossenfort's hire.
Quentin Harris - VP Player Personnel
Dru Grigson - Director Player Personnel
Josh Scobey - Director College Scouting
Ryan Gold - Assistant Director College Scouting
Chris Culver - Western Regional Scout
Luke Palko - Eastern Regional Scout
Zac Candy - Central Regional Scout
and at least a handful more guys all holdovers from previous regime.

It's always been only fan assumption(s) that the scouting dept would be overhauled. I hoped that would be the case, but as clear as I can discern from those I remember, nearly everyone in Player Personnel has been retained, especially in the top positions. To me this doesn't bode well. . .

 

[PACardsFan]

Riddle me this. Why would Payton hire him?

You‘ll have to ask him. He was a poor DC here in AZ for 4 years, he was an awful HC in Denver, and he was never a great DC prior to that. He’s a good man, a very likeable human being, but by the time Payton took the Denver gig, there weren’t great options out there.

 

[PACardsFan]

azcardinals.com/team/staff

At a minimum half of the Player Personnel staff is the same as prior to Ossenfort's hire.
Quentin Harris - VP Player Personnel
Dru Grigson - Director Player Personnel
Josh Scobey - Director College Scouting
Ryan Gold - Assistant Director College Scouting
Chris Culver - Western Regional Scout
Luke Palko - Eastern Regional Scout
Zac Candy - Central Regional Scout
and at least a handful more guys all holdovers from previous regime.

It's always been only fan assumption(s) that the scouting dept would be overhauled. I hoped that would be the case, but as clear as I can discern from those I remember, nearly everyone in Player Personnel has been retained, especially in the top positions. To me this doesn't bode well. . .

Personally, I’d be more concerned if he totally cleaned house. One thing I’m certain of. Whoever he did keep will be operating under MO’s set of rules and not the rules that have in place for the last 20+ years. He’ll keep those that are successful in implementing his processes, and over time, he’ll replace those that don’t. Too much change can be just as detrimental as no change at all.

 

[BulldogCard]

The thing I like about Gannon were the defenses he had Philly. Hopefully he can do the same here. The DL will have to surprise, probably get draft picks and high picks depending on qb scenario in 24.

 

[kerouac9]

The thing I like about Gannon were the defenses he had Philly. Hopefully he can do the same here. The DL will have to surprise, probably get draft picks and high picks depending on qb scenario in 24.

His 2021 defense sucked. Philly fans hated him. In 2022 they invested a ton of money on the defense and suddenly talent won out.

 

[oaken1]

Dont have to change staff to change processes

 

[Stout]

In a way, I agree, Stout, but on the other hand I also think that the season will be way too boring if I constantly look negative at it. Some of these thoughts might be a little too optimistic, but seeing improvements are my way of finding interest in the following the team this year.

Yep, which is why I held further comment to myself. There will be plenty to be dark about in the months to come. No use peeing in your cheerios already, sir!

 

[Stout]

Watt retired so there is nothing the Cardinals could do about that.

Would Zach Allen help this team? Probably.

Would re-signing Zach Allen improve the win total this year? I don't think he moves the needle any.

I think it is clear that the Cardinals are doing a one year punt with the 2023 season. Improving on the 2022 win total isn't the top of the priority list at this point. The 2023 season is all about changing the culture and finding out who is worth keeping around for the push next season.

Hard disagree. I think Monti hopes it'll be a one-year punt, but has a remit where he can take 2-3 to rebuild. Punting on the offseason, sans the draft, makes this more than a one-year punt.

 

[QuebecCard]

You‘ll have to ask him. He was a poor DC here in AZ for 4 years, he was an awful HC in Denver, and he was never a great DC prior to that. He’s a good man, a very likeable human being, but by the time Payton took the Denver gig, there weren’t great options out there.

Well, evidently, Payton knows something you don't.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Tell that to the New York Giants.

Dude, everyone gets it: You LOVE management 100% all the time. Until they're fired, and then they were the worst people ever.

How well did Monti and JG scout B.J. Ojulari? What have they done to earn your trust and faith besides not be Kliff and Keim?

I think the hope (or hopium) is that the Cardinals were mismanaged that they can get by with less for a year, reload and be competitive next year.

There were games last year that the Cardinals should have won and they didn't because of on the field mismanagement and poor QB play. Fix the management and QB play and there should be better outcomes.

 

[PACardsFan]

His 2021 defense sucked. Philly fans hated him. In 2022 they invested a ton of money on the defense and suddenly talent won out.

That’s because as an organization they chose to fix their offense first in 2021. Remember, prior to his arrival, they were a 4-12 team with a truly pathetic defense. It was Gannon who approached the Philly GM & proposed that approach. I live in Eagles land. I know how it all went down. And even then they went from 4-12 in 2020 to a playoff berth in 2021. And BTW, Philly fans hate EVERYONE lol.

 

[PACardsFan]

Well, evidently, Payton knows something you don't.

It’s not rocket science. His record is out there for everyone to see. Did you see anything while he was DC in AZ that was impressive? Payton made some poor choices in picking DC’s in New Orleans at times also. But, his offenses usually compensated.

 

[Gandhi]

Yep, which is why I held further comment to myself. There will be plenty to be dark about in the months to come. No use peeing in your cheerios already, sir!

En garde, my good man.

 

[kerouac9]

I think the hope (or hopium) is that the Cardinals were mismanaged that they can get by with less for a year, reload and be competitive next year.

There were games last year that the Cardinals should have won and they didn't because of on the field mismanagement and poor QB play. Fix the management and QB play and there should be better outcomes.

Yeah, but this team is substantially less talented than last year's. I agree that the 2022 Arizona Cardinals left maybe three wins on the table. I think that's why Michael Bidwill thought this team wasn't broken.

The 2023 Arizona Cardinals are purposefully poorly constructed. Even if you've turned up the management dial, you've put the talent dial down to almost zero.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yeah, but this team is substantially less talented than last year's. I agree that the 2022 Arizona Cardinals left maybe three wins on the table. I think that's why Michael Bidwill thought this team wasn't broken.

The 2023 Arizona Cardinals are purposefully poorly constructed. Even if you've turned up the management dial, you've put the talent dial down to almost zero.

I think you're exaggerating a bit. The mismanagement was pretty strong last year. I think Kliff can scheme, but I don't think he can manage personalities as a head coach.

But the talent level is less, I agree there. I don't think it's almost zero. Fixing Murray alone could capture more wins. Let's hope that's the case.

 

[BulldogCard]

His 2021 defense sucked. Philly fans hated him. In 2022 they invested a ton of money on the defense and suddenly talent won out.

Philly finds a way to hate everything, everyone. He had a good D last year, pass rush was killer. True, talent...high draft picks for DL crucial. Chris Jones, Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox..patterns of winning and how important the DL is.

 

[PACardsFan]

Philly finds a way to hate everything, everyone. He had a good D last year, pass rush was killer. True, talent...high draft picks for DL crucial. Chris Jones, Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox..patterns of winning and how important the DL is.

Agree. Hard to fathom it, but I won’t be surprised at all if someone on the Cardinals, and I don’t know who, will get double digit sacks. Not that we’re overly talented in that area, but it’s what a Gannon D is developed and taught to do.

 

[QuebecCard]

It’s not rocket science. His record is out there for everyone to see. Did you see anything while he was DC in AZ that was impressive? Payton made some poor choices in picking DC’s in New Orleans at times also. But, his offenses usually compensated.

It's not what I see or you; it's what Payton understands and appreciates.

P.S. Payton's 'D' sent Warner into retirement.

 

[kerouac9]

I think you're exaggerating a bit. The mismanagement was pretty strong last year. I think Kliff can scheme, but I don't think he can manage personalities as a head coach.

But the talent level is less, I agree there. I don't think it's almost zero. Fixing Murray alone could capture more wins. Let's hope that's the case.

Dude. Look at the defense again.

Also, I know that JG has managed to influence Michael Bidwill, but isn't it a little possible that this guy's act wears a little thin when we start 1-11?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Hard disagree. I think Monti hopes it'll be a one-year punt, but has a remit where he can take 2-3 to rebuild. Punting on the offseason, sans the draft, makes this more than a one-year punt.

Disagree.

Dude. Look at the defense again.

Also, I know that JG has managed to influence Michael Bidwill, but isn't it a little possible that this guy's act wears a little thin when we start 1-11?

Not year 1. Year 2 or 3, sure.

 

[PACardsFan]

It's not what I see or you; it's what Payton understands and appreciates.

P.S. Payton's 'D' sent Warner into retirement.

And what exactly does he understand and appreciate when it comes to hiring defensive coordinators? You do realize that he burned through 5 of them when he was in New Orleans. Defense was a liability for much of Payton’s 15 years there. Gary Gibbs ???, Rob Ryan (burned all bridges with Payton & claims he was forced to run a defense that Payton wanted), Steve Spagnuola (who’s D set NFL records for yards gained against it in 2012, and Greg Williams (complete whacko, who’s career pretty much ended in part because of that hit on Warner that you somehow think was a positive defensive attribute???). His defenses finished in the bottom 3rd of the NFL in 7 of his 15 seasons. And now he’s hired a DC who’s D finished 31st last year.


You have to admit that his interviewing process this year was peculiar at best. He interviewed Rex Ryan & Matt Patricia lol. Those are the clowns that VJ had to compete against. Of course you have to pick VJ out of that group. Based on his history of past DC hires & then these interviews, it has to make one wonder if Payton has a blind spot for defense.

 

[kerouac9]

Disagree.

Not year 1. Year 2 or 3, sure.

With the players? Are we going to fire everyone who rolls their eyes at coach pew pew when we're the 24th ranked offense and 32nd ranked defense in the NFL?

How does that fit in to the plan to compete in 2024?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

With the players? Are we going to fire everyone who rolls their eyes at coach pew pew when we're the 24th ranked offense and 32nd ranked defense in the NFL?

How does that fit in to the plan to compete in 2024?

I must have misunderstand your position. I thought you were thinking that you were saying fans/Cards upper management may be tired of Gannon and contemplating change if we go 1-11.

 

[kerouac9]

I must have misunderstand your position. I thought you were thinking that you were saying fans/Cards upper management may be tired of Gannon and contemplating change if we go 1-11.

No. Krang is saying that Kliff couldn't manage players or scheme -- that's what I heard, anyway. He thinks that Gannon and this staff can manage/motivate players and scheme well enough to have similar or better results in 2023 as in 2022.

I think that message is going to be pretty hollow if you stink. If you're losing a bunch of games at the final whistle.